jscott Posted 9 March , 2015 Share Posted 9 March , 2015 Hi all I was wondering whether anyone has seen or owns an Australian or NZ marked P88 or P03 bayonet? I collect Australian bayonets and (British) unit marked P88/ P03 bayonets but have never once seen one marked with Australian or NZ markings. This seems a little odd as I understand that the NZ units used P88s early in the war, and I have seen at least one photo from Gallipoli which would suggest that the Australians used P03 bayonets (although I concede that this is slightly speculative). I'd be really interested to hear if anyone has any information on this. Thanks, Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 9 March , 2015 Share Posted 9 March , 2015 Yes Jonathan, I have seen Australian marked P1888's they are not that uncommon, and they are marked similar to the early P1907 bayonets, so up my street.! I haven't got one in the collection at the moment with those type markings, but I do have one which is a 'possible' that came in a very nice SOS marked scabbard. I do have photos somewhere so I will see what I can dig out to illustrate. NZ marked bayonets will also exist, both the Aussie and NZ 'Long Lees' were well marked. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 9 March , 2015 Share Posted 9 March , 2015 OK so here are a couple of my scabbards to illustrate. They only have the SOS markings which shows they were shipped out here along with the S/MLE rifles. I found both these examples at Militaria fairs here in Australia. On the left is the standard P1888 scabbard, and on the right the much scarcer P1903 scabbard. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 9 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 9 March , 2015 Lovely scabbards S>S, thanks for posting. They look like they are in great condition. Were the bayonets unmarked? So are you saying that P88/ P03 bayonets were also marked with the early pre-WW1 style "NSW", "Q", "SA" type markings etc, plus the SOS markings? Very interesting - I'll need to keep my eyes out for one. I've seen some P1888s that are claimed to have Australian markings but these are simply serial numbers on the cross guard/ scabbard throat so I don't know the basis on which they are deemed Australian. Cheers, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 9 March , 2015 Share Posted 9 March , 2015 Are there none illustrated in the new 88/03 bayonet book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 9 March , 2015 Share Posted 9 March , 2015 Jonathan, yes the markings on the earlier bayonets are along the same lines as those seen on the P1907's, but they are a bit all over the place. I think the States/colonies were still making up their own rules at that time, so the methods of marking are many and varied, whatever you find.! Shown below are a couple more pics. On the left is a 1902 P1888 marked to SA with 4-digit serial, on the right my P1888 scabbard shown above. This scabbard has the SOS marks on the leather and these apparently 'random' stamps on the throat. But when you consider SA was also 4MD.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 10 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 10 March , 2015 Very interesting, thanks for posting those pictures. I'll keep that in mind when I'm looking at random markings on P88s in the future, and let you now if I stumble across anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 10 March , 2015 Share Posted 10 March , 2015 And here is the other side of the equation.! This is my Australian issue MLE ... originally made by BSA in 1901, it was later sold from British service and issued in Victoria. It has all those important markings present to allow some of it's history to be traced with relative ease. It bears VIC serials stamped on butt & receiver dating issue to 1910. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 10 March , 2015 Share Posted 10 March , 2015 S>S, Seeing the photo you posted of the P1888 scabbard, reminds me that I have a P1888, with an unusual scabbard feature, it is dated Jan 1901 and carries Queen Victoria's cypher. The scabbard which I think is original to the bayonet has the usual staple to the lower part of the locket, but instead of a staple at the top there is a screw fastening adjacent to the throat. A friend who has been collecting bayonets for many years, has never seen this before, have you ever seen another one? The bayonet is unit marked to the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. Mike. p.s. Nice rifle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 11 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 March , 2015 Super rifle S>S, lovely! I think I need to keep my distance from rifles though, that seems to be a world of financial pain just waiting to happen. Mike - never seen a screw attaching the locket to a P88 scabbard if thats what you mean, any chance of a photo (and which battalion of the RWF?) J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 11 March , 2015 Share Posted 11 March , 2015 No I have no idea about the screw fastener on the scabbard - sounds very "German/Mauser~ish" to me. Perhaps it is a substitute scabbard of some kind.? Funny story with this rifle. I spent all weekend looking for a rifle at a Militaria fair with nothing to show for it. On the way home I took a totally random detour. Called in at a small town gun store and found this just sitting there waiting for me.! It was dirty and battered but very original, and just what I was looking for. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 26 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 26 March , 2015 What a fantastic find, and in a local gun shop of all places. Is there any view on whether the Australians ever used MLE/ CLLEs and P88 bayonets in the war (maybe light horse etc)? I've seen some photos suggesting this but I've never been convinced that the soldiers pictured were Australians (and could have been NZers who I know used these rifles/ bayonets) Cheers, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 26 March , 2015 Share Posted 26 March , 2015 I don't believe the Aussies took any overseas, the MLE were mainly used at home for training and garrison purposes, freeing up the SMLE rifles for active service. It would be interesting to look for photographic evidence, I don't recall seeing any except at home. The Kiwis certainly had more of the MLE, but I don't really know. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 26 March , 2015 Share Posted 26 March , 2015 Here are my two NZ sourced MLEs one a 1901 and one a commercial contract but with NZ use: I do not have a NZ marked p88 to go with them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 March , 2015 Share Posted 27 March , 2015 I don't believe the Aussies took any overseas, the MLE were mainly used at home for training and garrison purposes, freeing up the SMLE rifles for active service. That's interesting! By contrast, IIRC, by the end of 1914, a few of the German units in France (apparently including regular infantry and Landwehr) were asked to turn in their Gew.98 for Gew.88, so that their Gew.98 could be re-issued to the newly conscripted training units! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 1 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 April , 2015 They are two lovely NZ sourced/ marked MLEs 4thGordons - a beautiful patina on the wood and fittings too. As luck would have it I seem to have stumbled across an Aussie-marked P88 bayonet only shortly after having become aware of what to look for (courtesy of S>S). Here are a few shots - matching "1449" markings and SOS marking on the pommel. Helpfully, the seller also confirmed that the bayonet came from his father's collection which was assembled years before ebay etc made overseas purchasing possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 April , 2015 Share Posted 1 April , 2015 A very nice find - and matching serials as well! I must have another look at all of mine to check their serials... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 1 April , 2015 Share Posted 1 April , 2015 Well done J. That looks to be a nice example of what I was describing above. No State identifier, but the SOS marking makes it very likely for mine. I am pleased you found one, and impressed you have managed to do it so quickly. What's that saying about "good things come to those who seek".? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 2 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 2 April , 2015 Thanks guys. Yes I was happy to spot one fairly quickly. Doubt I will focus on these given that the Australians used P07s during the war, but I had to have one example, and it fits nicely in my P88 drawer! I'll keep an eye out for these regardless as it would be good to understand how the markings work, although I appreciate they were probably done on a fairly ad hoc State by State basis... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5thBatt Posted 2 April , 2015 Share Posted 2 April , 2015 Here are my two NZ sourced MLEs one a 1901 and one a commercial contract but with NZ use: MLEComp3.jpg MLEcomp2.jpg MLE12.jpg MLE13.jpg I do not have a NZ marked p88 to go with them! The PB prefixed rifle is a replacement barreled action brought in the 1920s & dropped into old woodwork. Here's a recent article on NZ Long Lees http://www.armsregister.com/articles/articles_documents/nzar_a49_long_tom_update.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 2 April , 2015 Share Posted 2 April , 2015 That is an interesting article on the NZ MLE's, thanks for linking that. It would also explain Chris' HG markings which we have discussed before.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 26 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 26 April , 2015 Well in what can only be a good lesson not to ignore things sitting under your nose, I was just perusing my collection of P88s and P03 bayonets, and was looking at one of my favourites which is marked to (what I interpret as) the 1st County of London Yeomanry. I like this bayonet as it is in good condition but has the look and feeling of a bayonet that has seen much use. Here are a few shots of the COLY markings. I aways hoped that this marking may have indicated use by the COLY at Gallipoli. However when I turned the bayonet over, much to my surprise, I found what I now recognise as (likely) Australian markings - the sold out of service marking on the pommel, and "colonial" style markings on the cross-guard. In a way I am thrilled, as I collect Australian bayonets first and foremost and I am yet to see another P03 with these markings - which are similar to those on the P88 that I posted above, however I also realise that this means that the bayonet was probably used by the COLY pre-WW1, as I understand the consensus is that this style of Australian marking was circa 1912 or before (and therefore was probably not used by the COLY at Gallipoli). I suppose the other option is that the bayonet was sold out of service to Australia pre-WW1 and then somehow found its way back into COLY service, but that seems unlikely. I guess there is the outside chance that Australians did use this bayonet during the war, but I realise the whole question of whether Australians used the P03 during WW1 is a little controversial. Anyway, any thoughts on these markings would be much appreciated (as I'm still learning) and any comments on use of P03's by the Australians in WW1 would be equally well received! Thanks, Jonathan Oh and here are a few photos of the other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 26 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 26 April , 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 27 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 27 April , 2015 I was reading Skennerton's "Australian Service Bayonets" last night and noticed that he says that many P03s were issued to the Australian light horse during the war, so perhaps that is a possibility too. Cheers, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jezzageorge Posted 11 May , 2015 Share Posted 11 May , 2015 Hi....I have a very nice 1888 pattern bayonet, type 2 ! and is has a Romanised V on the cross- guard and on top of the tang. The pommel has the sold out of service symbol too. And, the frog stud on the scabbard also has the same V.....Could this be Victoria, Australia.....I have seen the same V on 1907 's. I also have a 1903 pattern bayonet marked Q ^ P and SOS on the pommel. The scabbard is numbered the same as the bayonet...it is in near mint condition and one of only 300 issued to the QP....Queensland Police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now