Cnock Posted 30 December , 2014 Share Posted 30 December , 2014 2 other German Ersatz bayonets the lower one is for the Russian Mosin Nagant Rifle regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 30 December , 2014 Share Posted 30 December , 2014 Attached is a photo of the first bayonet I ever bought, an S 84/98 mS, that was in 1956 when it cost me 15/- (75 pence) still in my collection and just as purchased! (it has been dusted) Sawback 98/05 Alter Art Sawback 98/05 Neuer Art Sawback removed regards, Cnock Mike Mike & Cnock, A superb selection of Sawback bayonets. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 30 December , 2014 Share Posted 30 December , 2014 the sawbacks I had without spine markings always had the proof marks on the pommel.(forgot to mention) Nice to know that - thanks! Trajan 2 other German Ersatz bayonets the lower one is for the Russian Mosin Nagant Rifle Again, nice - and unusual - examples! That bottom one for the M-N rifle is especially nice and I think pretty rare. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 December , 2014 Share Posted 31 December , 2014 Seeing how SS has kindly allowed other collectors to creep in here with unusual bayonets, I thought that I'd take the opportunity to post some interesting ones that our good collector mate Sawdoc has recently acquired, two of them of the ersatz sawback variety, as shown above by Cnock (but one of these with odd teeth), and one a very rare find indeed... It's the bottom one, the W/15 S.84/98, with the round cleaning hole, which is the rarity, because the maker-mark is: Now, luck works for us bayonet collectors in different ways, but Sawdoc really has it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 December , 2014 Share Posted 31 December , 2014 1201.JPG Is NOBODY going to start the ball rolling? This quiz of our cobber SS's has been up for weeks! Well, I'll have a go on some of the odder (i.e., unusual) ones here on the basis of what I can remember from my own pieces far away in Ankara, and my notes, while waiting for dinner gong... ... but fully expecting to be wrong on one or more ID's, of course... But I reckon no. 3 is a Springfield-made M.1905 - note the square fullers, and those are the type of grips used between 1906-1922 (well, that's what I have in my notes!). IIIRC correctly there were quite a few makers of these M.1905's, but only the Springfield factory made them with the squared-off fullers. I could well be wrong ... But at least I had a go! And I suppose that I should really have a go at no.1 as it is rather obvious... A German S.98, the so-called a.A. version - you can see that the grips are one-piece... Oh, that no.4 looks familiar too - rivets not screwbolts, incurved pommel, finial on quillon - is it a Remington Rolling Block? No.5 is a Ross of some kind - but, would you believe it, I don't have one of those in my collection and so I have no idea what type, unless I look up the web (and one part of me is saying - 'Go on, Google it!'), but IIRC the first ones had a rounded point and the later ones had this type of point? Ready to be corrected! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 1 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 January , 2015 For any budding bayonet anoraks (or other academic minutiae wallopers) who like their chances, please see this thread HERE for all the answers to the "20 questions quiz" ... Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 1 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 January , 2015 It's the bottom one, the W/15 S.84/98, with the round cleaning hole, which is the rarity, because the maker-mark is: Now, luck works for us bayonet collectors in different ways, but Sawdoc really has it! Why so rare.? Walter & Co are a noted supplier (either manufacturer, finisher or retailer.?) of the S84/98 bayonets. You can see their 'maker mark' shown in post #23 (page1) Of more interest to me is the square fullers and the circular clearance hole, which do set this example apart. I would be looking closely at markings & for signs of conversion.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 January , 2015 Share Posted 1 January , 2015 For any budding bayonet anoraks (or other academic minutiae wallopers) who like their chances, please see this thread HERE for all the answers to the "20 questions quiz" ... Cheers, S>S What an interesting thread! Never seen that one before! That's why I have no comments on it! And I can see why I have not posted anything on it - I see that it started on 07 April 2011 and ended on 14 April 2011, and if you check my profile you'll see that I only joined GWF on 18 April 2011, four days after it ended... In which case surely a prize or commendation is owed? TTFN, Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 January , 2015 Share Posted 1 January , 2015 Why so rare.? Walter & Co are a noted supplier (either manufacturer, finisher or retailer.?) of the S84/98 bayonets. You can see their 'maker mark' shown in post #23 (page1) Of more interest to me is the square fullers and the circular clearance hole, which do set this example apart. I would be looking closely at markings & for signs of conversion.? Cheers, S>S Why so rare cobber? Let this dummkopf, as you kindly think of me (cf. http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=222578&page=3, no 63), elucidate to the best of my ability, and so improve your knowledge on this topic... And yes, I am always happy to be corrected, if you or others can give a verifiable and reliable source! To begin with, note that Walter and Co. actually proposed to make two different types of 84/98, both with this distinctive circular clearance hole. The first type is exceedingly rare... The second type is this one of Sawdoc's, and although not as rare as the first type, it is still a rarity. Let me explain why that is the case, from what limited knowledge I have acquired on German bayonets since joining GWF in April 2011 - and from what notes I have here in the UK. 1) According to my notes, as I understand it this second type was made in one year only, 1915, whereas almost all the other firms making 84/98's did so effectively on an annual basis between 1915-1918, although there are exceptions to prove the rule (e.g., Siepmann). So limited production makes it a bit of a rarity... 2) Note carefully the marking on Sawdoc's which you so obviously have not done - this is 'Möve-Werke / Walter & Co. / Mühlhausen in Thr', so sole production by that company, whereas the one you show in post no. 23 (page 1) and which I reproduce, for reference purposes, below, along with Sawdoc's, is a relatively common-as-muck 1916 joint production with Herder, lacking the 'Möve-Werke' text and with the regular rectangular clearance hole... (Möve, BTW, was the trade-name of the very popular bicycle the Walter company produced - information supplied gratis!) (And note, incidentally, IIRC, that generally speaking, the blade-maker marks are on the left, bayonet finisher marks are on the right, as with your example: and so Herder the maker, Walter the finisher). 3) As I understand it, the squared-of fullers are a characteristic of the Walter-made blades (as are the circular clearance holes, although these were also used by Mehlich). IIRC Walter & Co. was not involved in the production of the 71/84, which is what you may have been thinking when you commented on the fullers. BUT, as I have been repeatedly stressing on GWF since October 2014, I am in the UK, working on articles of no relevance to GW studies; and all of my books are in Ankara, and so I am limited to commenting on those topics for which I have notes on my laptop or my portable hard-drive - and I don't have anything regarding the makers of 71/84's on either. So bear that caveat in mind... So, arkadashim, have I answered your question? If so may I close by suggesting on this glorious January 01 2015 that you make a New Year's resolution to try to improve your German beyond the level popular in Action Comics dialogue - e.g., dummkopf, raus, usw. - there is a lot to be learnt from German sites such as blankwaffenforum... Best wishes for 2015! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 January , 2015 Share Posted 1 January , 2015 3) As I understand it, the squared-of fullers are a characteristic of the Walter-made blades (as are the circular clearance holes, although these were also used by Mehlich). Should have made it clear that these circular clearance holes are also found on some other 84/98's - Sawdoc just sent me a picture of a Weyersburg example of one of these with a circular clearance hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dman Posted 1 January , 2015 Share Posted 1 January , 2015 In 1942 was shortage of 1905 model bayonets as US ramped up. Contracts went out for numerous cutlery manufacturers like American Fork and Hoe, Utica Cutlery, Onedia Limited and others. Just over 1 million were made . Often referred to by collectors (incorrectly ) as the Model 1942 Note - Many US Model 1905 bayonets were "chopped", shortened by 6 " , during the last Great Unpleaseantness This was known as the 1905E1 Reason was that many troops now rode in vehicles (trucks, half tracks, etc) Found that the longer bayonets would get tangled up in legs as troops attempted to mount/dismount Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 2 January , 2015 Share Posted 2 January , 2015 bayonet S 84/98 alter Art the one above is a battlefield relict the S84/98 was made in 1887 by Alex Coppel. regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 January , 2015 Share Posted 2 January , 2015 Nice one there! Also interesting to see that circular clearance hole again... I wonder (perhaps somebody will check?), are these regular features of the 84/98 a.A.? I simply can't remember... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 2 January , 2015 Share Posted 2 January , 2015 Trajan, as far I know these are regular features Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 January , 2015 Share Posted 2 January , 2015 Trajan, as far I know these are regular features Cnock Thanks again Cnock! I don't have any examples of the 84/98 a.A. - none seem to have made their way to Turkey - hence my complete ignorance on these... But after being kicked out of the library at closing time I managed over a pint or two in a pub with wi-fi to scour some German and Dutch sites, plus getting a very informative e-mail from Sawdoc, with all the details, that together clarified things and answered my question. As I understand it, then unless I am being a real doofer (which is always possible!), it seems that when the majority of existing S 71/84's were converted in 1908-1909 to fit the Gew.98, so becoming the abgeanderten Seitengewehr 71/84, or 84/98 a.A., the old 'humpback' grips were not only reused but provided with these circular clearance holes, with a 3 mm diameter. However, it appears that when the 84/98 n.A. began to be made, in 1915, everybody switched to rectangular clearance holes, a pattern which - as far as I can tell - first appears with the kS 98. Well, everybody except those first ones by Walter & Co., WK&C, and J.Mehlich, which still have circular ones. As is normal, if I have got something wrong - do tell! I am sure that the answer can be verified from the published and reliable literature... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 January , 2015 Share Posted 4 January , 2015 Why so rare.? Walter & Co are a noted supplier (either manufacturer, finisher or retailer.?) of the S84/98 bayonets. You can see their 'maker mark' shown in post #23 (page1) Of more interest to me is the square fullers and the circular clearance hole, which do set this example apart. I would be looking closely at markings & for signs of conversion.? ... 'Möve-Werke / Walter & Co. / Mühlhausen in Thr',... I really must sort out my notes... Hiding away at the bottom of something else altogether I found some little extras on the Möve-Werke / Walter & Co. bayonet, which may be of interest - and back up the rarity point of view over the more usual Walter/Herder bayonets 1) The Mehlich and MW/Walter 84/98 n.A. bayonets are almost identical - both with square fullers to begin with, but MV/Walter examples giving way to rounded fullers in late 1915 just before they dropped the MW part of their mark. The square fullers, I assume, are a hang-over from the design of the 71/84, and may suggest that these were blade-blanks supplied to these companies by other makers - off-hand, I don't think either company made the 71/84, so possibly indicating blade-blanks supplied by other firms... 2) The MW/Walter version will often have a letter on the lower spine, i.e., that part of the bayonet where the ricasso begins at the end of the blade / edge. These are thought to indicate blade blank makers - but could be assembly team marks... That said, one of the letters is 'H', which may indicate blade blanks made by Weyserburg/KC, as this letter is recorded on some of their 98/05's. 3) The MW/Walter version (which was produced in 1915 only) often / always has serial numbers on the tangs and inside the grips. The highest recorded number seems to be 26701. 4) The Walter/Herder versions, like the shown by SS above, posts 21, 22, and 23, were made in 1916 only, and all have round fullers, and serial marks, and the highest serial number recorded (according to my notes) is 49161. OK, so not quite as 'common as muck' but almost twice as many of these were made as the MW/Walter 1915 bayonets, which helps account for their rarity. Hope this information is of some interest to some of you guys! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 6 January , 2015 Share Posted 6 January , 2015 98/05 alter Art, neuer Art, Ersatz markings on 98/05 neuer Art markings on 98/05 alter Art Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 6 January , 2015 Share Posted 6 January , 2015 markings on Ersatz 98/05 regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 January , 2015 Share Posted 6 January , 2015 98/05 alter Art, neuer Art, Ersatz markings on 98/05 neuer Art markings on 98/05 alter Art markings on Ersatz 98/05 You have a pretty nice collection there Mr.Cnock! And thanks for showing those fraktur markings! I have never come across anything like that single letter on the Ersatz 98/05 before. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 S84/98 Neu and with sawback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 Markings on S84/98 Neu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 Markings S84/98 sawback regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 markings on 98/05 alter Art Is that an 'RC' mark beneath the year stamp on that last one? I know very little about these but I understand that these marks (a crown over 'RC')were applied after an item was rejected after initial inspection for one reason or another (e.g., blade too short, or too narrow), but was then accepted after review by the Revision Commission and approved for service issue, as the basic fit and other details of the bayonet were adequate for service use. I have to admit that I have never seen one in the flesh, but this is an example on a 98/05, reproduced for reference from: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/imperial-germany-austro-hungary/ersatz-butcher-bayonet-marks-help-please-333211/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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