3756 & 266166 Ernest William Cope, 3/7th & 1/7 Btn, Sherwood F

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Hello folks,

I hope you are all well and ready for Christmas!

I'm wondering if I could possibly get assistance in hints and tips in researching the 3/7th & 1/7th Battalion, Notts & Derbyshire Regiment.

I've been researching my first great grandfather who's name was "Ernest William Cope".

During his early years Ernest was sent to live with his grandmother under the name "William Horton" and when returning to his biological parents, briefly went under the name "Ernest William Watson". But due to him being baptised under the name "Ernest william Cope", he decided to also be married and stick with the surname "Cope", hence I am a "Cope".

(Mother was Louisa Richardson-Cope and Father was William Watson)

Ernest prefered to be called "Bill Cope" and I've found a newspaper article from the 27th May 1991 that has my grandfather "Ernest Thomas Cope", stating Bill Cope as the grounds keeper for Gresley Rovers FC. I've also found a photo of Ernest playing for the football team in 1921, (still to be confirmed, but the likeness is very uncanny).

Now here is the rub, Bill Cope's only living child is Philip Graham Cope, who prefers to be known as Graham (all very confusing, I know), and he would have only been Four years old when Bill passed away at the age of 48. Sadly due to time catching up with Graham, it's proving very hard to recall any information about Bill Copes younger days, that his Mother Louisa Cope (nee stocking) may have mentioned.

Bill Cope was born in Warton, Warwickshire 06 Jan 1892 and spent the remainder of his life in Castle Gresley, South Derbyshire, and according to Graham Bill never went to war. So spent his war days as a coal miner & later after the war became the grounds keeper for the local team, but I'm trying to ascertain whether Bill spent any time in the local territorial regiment.

I've attached some images that show Bill With the Notts & Derby Regiment during a billeted exercise in Harpenden.

I know that the eye will see what it wants to see, but this image has me intrigued as it could very well be Bill as a teenager.

Let me know what you think folks and any assistance in finding anything remotely useful for Bill's early years would be very much appreciated.

Here is the link that I found for the F Coy & H Coy image's upon: https://derbyshireterritorials.wordpress.com/8th-battalion/

Regards,

Lee.

PS. I hope you all have a very merry Christmas, and a happy new year.

Edited 24 December , 2022 by LCpl Lee Cope

[mikebriggs]

Hi Lee

I'm sorry, but I wouldn't be convinced…...

Is this the two men who you think are the same? The ears and nose look different……...

They are also in different Battalions - so it would mean him moving between the 8th and 5th Battalions between 1909 and 1912 (dates from postmarks on the post cards) - which is always possible I guess.

I'm really bad at spotting people - so would be interested in what others say

cheers

Mike

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Thanks for the reply Mike,

I too agree that there are distinct differences in the ears and nose, but the chap with the Red circle next to him in both image's looks to be the same chap from H Coy, 5th Battalion.

This could help me in discovering which Battalions were on exercise in Harpenden 1914 - 15.

I'm using a very useful page that was built for the Derbyshire Territorials, in order to scan through images and narrow down a list of potential soldiers/Battalions who could indicate the presence of my great grandfather.

Bills face was quite unmistakable, and some of the images seem to be a mixture of Battalions between exercises for the Derbyshire pre war territorials. Although I must admit his name has been very confusing from the beginning and his time as a teenager growing up in Castle & Church Gresley is very sketchy to say the least.

All I know is that he worked down the local colliery and was the groundsman for Gresley Rovers FC. Bill may have also played football for the team in 1921, but this is yet to be confirmed.

On my day off I'm also going to visit a very interesting place named "The Magic Attic" in Swadlincote, South Derbyshire, to see if the great team have found anything rererence Bill's footballing days.

I'll also ask if they have any records reference local coal miners, who were also part of the local territorial's based at the training hall in "High Cross Banks".

I have found the image below and I'm 99% certain that Ernest William (Bill) Cope is on there at the bottom right: https://derbyshireterritorials.wordpress.com/5th-battalion-2/5th-battalion/

1915 and Harpenden. Possibly taken outside of the Battalion headquarters in autumn 1915. A picture of the Officers sat on the same steps was published in the Battalion History by L. W. de Grave in 1930. Interestingly, many of the men are wearing 3-tier Notts and Derby shoulder badges, which might indicate that they are new recruits. Sergeants Tom Ison and Bill Patrick are pictured. This post card was addressed to Ruby Ison at High Cross Banks in Castle Gresley but not posted.

Regards,

Lee.

(17/11/15 - I'm now 100% certain that this is an image of Bill Cope.)

[LCpl Lee Cope]

This image from Harpenden 1915 is Bill Cope.

Bill was also married to my great grandmother ~ Louisa Stocking and the wedding was registered in Burton upon Trent on the 24th Dec 1915.

There are also distinct similarities to the image compared to the photo I was given by Bill Cope's youngest son ~ Philip Graham Cope.

The hair, eyes, nose, ears mouth, moustache and body type are all identical.... He just looks a little flustered, but this was probably due to a hard day of digging trenches.

Please let me know what you think?

[LCpl Lee Cope]

I found this tonight in the 1941 Kelly's Directory for Ruby Ison, who is "Miss Ruby A Ison", a pianoforte teacher of Mount Pleasent, Castle Gresley.

The above photo is stated as being addressed to Ruby Ison, but not posted.

I found no sign of any Cope's, but Ison is also a family name I'm familiar with.

Charles Ison ( b ) 1773 Over White Acre, Warwickshire, was my 5th great grandfather, so this photo could be well worth looking into.

I can see that upon the https://derbyshireterritorials.wordpress.com/5th-battalion-2/5th-battalion/ there is a Thomas Charles Ison ( b ) 1885 Castle Gresley, but from what I can see, his ancestry came from Leicestershire, whereas my Ison ancestry came from Over Whitacre, Warwickshire... Maybe they are distant relations of the Ison surname? So far I cannot find a link...

I couldn't imagine Ruby and Bill Cope knowing each other as family though, mostly due to the time frame, but also due to the Ison/Cope family branches being so bluured.

So would Ruby A Ison have known the "Thomas Charles Ison" pictured in the photo? Or are these Ison's just Two different family lines living in the same area?

[LCpl Lee Cope]

OK, so after looking through a considerable amount of online Nott's and Derby photo's/documants and using the Derbyshire Territorials in The Great War site for reference (which is quite brilliant by the way).

https://derbyshireterritorials.wordpress.com/5th-battalion-2/5th-battalion/

I must make my priority the Aug 1915 Harpenden camp photo.

Mikebriggs, from what I can see you have a lot of dealings with this site (so if it's your baby, then very well done), but do you know where the original photo would be held?

[mikebriggs]

Hi Lee

Yes its my site and I have the original picture.

I'm a bit confused…….in your first post you said that your great grandfather was a miner and didn't serve in WW1.

Why do you think that he served in the Pre-War Territorials?

​Also the picture at Harpenden was taken in August/September 1914 - a few months before the Battalion went to France. If he was serving with the 1/5th Battalion at the time then he would have gone to France with them and served overseas.

cheersMike

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Thanks Mike,

I guess there is nothing written upon the rear of the photo either? Would anywhere hold nominal rolls of the servicemans names who are on this photo?

Philip Graham Cope (Ernest's youngest Son) remembers a lot from the past, but he was so young (4 years old) when his father passed away that he never heard mention of Bill serving in any Pre-War Territorials.

My grandfather Ernest Thomas Cope wrote the family history in an old Bible and that went over to Bermuda with a distant cousin.

So Bill Cope's younger days are a void apart from him being the groundskeeper at Gresley Rovers FC, and my family didn't even know that until an old copy of The Burton Mail Newspaper was posted to me.

Did Bill Cope serve in France with the local Territorial's, only to be sent home injured (then married)?

These are family questions that my family cannot answer, so it's turned into a bit of a quest. But this photo is a good place to begin, so I shall see where it leads.

Is there anything else you can tell me about the photo to shed some more light upon it please Mike.

Regards,

Lee.

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Hello folks,

This could be an interesting turn of events...

Today I made a Christmas visit to my granduncle Philip Graham Cope (Bill Cope's last living son) and sadly due to his sight failing him he couldn't make out the images I showed him. All very sad for this to happen to such a nice gentleman.

But one thing that we both agreed upon was that due to Graham only being Four years old when his father passed away, he couldn't positivly remember what his father Bill Cope did during 1914 - 1918.

Graham told me many tales about his father that his brothers passed onto him when he was young, which I listened to with much amazement ~ Such interesting times.

I also managed to take a few photo's on my phone of some family photo's that Graham and his good lady wife Elaine had kept in a draw.

Upon the rear of one of the photo's of his mother Louisa Cope (nee Stocking) I saw something that could be of great interest....

I've attached the image of my great grandmother - Louisa Cope (nee Stocking) and I was wondering if you good folks could help me in looking into the numbers that have been written upon the rear of the photo.

The rear of the postcard is damaged, but the message seems to read:

25368 nL (is the nL a prefix?)

"BEST LOVE ERNIE"

Is this just a post card mark? Or could this be a regimental number and a message of love from Ernest (Ernie) William (Bill) Cope to his wife Louisa Cope (nee Stocking) or vice versa?

Regards,

Lee.

[LCpl Lee Cope]

I found these useful in my Harpenden 1915 investigations:

http://www.harpenden-history.org.uk/page/more_troops_in_harpenden_-_1915

http://www.1914-1918.net/regiments.htm

[BRONNO]

After looking at the number upon the back of my great grandmothers photo, it took my 14 yr old daughter to point out that the number isn't 25668 or 25768 at all.

It looks more like 25368...

Still yet to confirm if this is a regimental number though.

Does anyone know where I could find a Notts and Derby list of Territorial regimental numbers? I would be looking towards the 1915 Harpenden time frame.

25368 is to Pte John Whitehead, who served with the 9th and 10th Btns N&D's. I personally don't think that the number on your photo is a Regimental number I have seen many post cards and photo's with obscure numbers written on the back.

What I can tell you is that there was a 36357 Pte Ernest William Cope who enlisted into the Sherwood Foresters on the 11th December 1915 aged 27 years. He was serving with the 3rd Battalion on the 24th February 1916 with 'M' Company.

This man was posted to the 2/8th Battalion Royal Scots on the 14th April 1916 at some time he served with the 2/5th Battalion Sherwood Foresters. Have a look at the SWB Card for other details it also shows Leicestershire Regt. BRONNO.

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Ohhh, many thanks Bronno! I'll take a look.

OK, I've taken a look at these service records and medal card before. But now I'm looking at them in a different light.

Ernest William Cope's father was a William Watson, who at first denied being with Louisa Richardson Cope, resulting in the pregnancy.

After being born Ernest was sent away to live with his grandmother as his mother was only 18 yrs old, and his grandmother was named Ann Barwell (nee Haywood and briefly a Cope through marriage to a William Cope).

(After careful consideration and looking into the Ernest William Cope's service records who lived on Stanley Street, Derby.)

Could the person writing the paperwork for this Ernest William Cope, living on 44 Stanley Street, Derby in 1915 have misspelled the name "Barwell", and wrote "Buller" instead?

I do not believe this to be my Ernest William Cope, but it could be worth further research.

Thanks Bronno.

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Hello folks, I hope you are all having a good day. Recently I came across a photo provided by Mike Briggs of some Nott's & Derbyshire recruits that was taken in Harpenden late 1914.

This photo has my great grandfather on it and I've been searching high and low for his WW1 documents.

I think I've found him.... Sgt Ernest Cope 3756 & 266166. It appears that Ernest enlisted on the 01 Feb 1915 with the 7th reserve Nott's & Derbyshire, but for some reason he appears on the Harpenden photo late 1914?

On Ernest's service record he began with the 3/7th and then transfered to the 1/7th as a Sgt on the 01 Dec 1915.

A little more confusing is his marriage to my great grand mother 24 Dec 1915 even though Ernest was deployed to France 27 Oct 1915?

All a little confusing and although I have Ernest's service record, medal card and silver war badge number + the Harpenden photo, I was wondering if there was possibly more avenues I could look into or find lists of soldiers, predominantly coal miners recruited during these times in Nottingham & Derbyshire.

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Please could someone explain what these Two peices of text say?

Text One:Something has been crossed out....

Text Two:Something about the medical discharge....

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Just been informed that Ernest was wounded at the battle of Gommecourt 01st July 1916 and it was published in the Times newspaper.

[johnboy]

From LLT

1/5th Battalion

August 1914 : in Derby. Part of Notts. & Derby Brigade in the North Midland Division. Moved on mobilisation to Harpenden and went on in November 1914 to Braintree.

25 february 1915 : landed in France.

12 May 1915 : formation became the 139th Brigade in 46th (North Midland) Division.

1/6th Battalion

August 1914 : in Chesterfield. Record same as 1/5th Bn.

1/7th (Robin Hood) Battalion

August 1914 : in Nottingham. Record same as 1/5th Bn.

31 January 1918 : transferred to 178th Brigade in 59th (2nd North Midland) Division and absorbed 2/7th Bn; renamed 7th Bn.

7 May 1918 : reduced to cadre strength.

29 May 1918 : transferred to 30th Division.

19 June 1918 : transferred to 66th (2nd East Lancashire) Division.

15 August 1918 : transferred to 116th Brigade in 39th Division but remained near Etaples until the Armistice.

1/8th Battalion

August 1914 : in Newark. Record same as 1/5th Bn.

2/5th Battalion

Formed at Derby on 16 October 1914 as a second line unit.

Moved to Luton in January 1915 and placed under command of 2nd Notts. & Derby Brigade in the 2nd North Midland Division.

August 1915 : formation became the 176th Brigade, 59th (2nd North Midland) Division. Moved to Watford.

Moved to Ireland in April 1916 to quell disturbances.

Moved in January 1917 to Fovant and landed at Le Havre 26 February 1917.

7 May 1918 : reduced to cadre.

2 June 1918 : transferred to 16th (Irish) Division.

17 June 1918: transferred to 34th Division.

28 June 1918 : transferred to 117th Brigade in 39th Division.

3 August 1918 : disbanded in France.

[kenf48]

Just been informed that Ernest was wounded at the battle of Gommecourt 01st July 1916 and it was published in the Times newspaper. Is there a free newspaper search for the Times in which I can find this information?

Here in Sussex the East Sussex Library Service 'e-library' provide the facility to search the Times archive at home. I see Staffordshire libraries offer Newstand at home, whether or not this includes the Times Archive I don't know.

As for your crossed out entry the first line is 'Reverts to ?Private' 'on transfer to ???" As L/cpl was an appointment. rather than a promotion when a man transferred he usually lost his stripe although I see the next entry shows 'appointed' which means he got it back - you've not posted the dates but it looks like in fairly short order which is probably why the entry is deleted. i.e. he probably retained his stripe on transfer but without the full entry can't be certain.

Ken

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Many thanks, here are the complete documents....

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Sgt Ernest Cope saved by his cigarette case and notebook..... WoW!!!!

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Here is the photo of a young Ernest Cope and the cigarette case/notebook In question.

[LCpl Lee Cope]

After being provided with this photo of Sgt Ernest Cope, I have the feeling that the portrait photo in uniform is that of a much younger Ernest Cope.

The ears, shape of the face, nose and mouth are very, very close! This has to be Ernest!

What are the chances of me being able to find the complete photo of him in uniform?

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Here in Sussex the East Sussex Library Service 'e-library' provide the facility to search the Times archive at home. I see Staffordshire libraries offer Newstand at home, whether or not this includes the Times Archive I don't know.

As for your crossed out entry the first line is 'Reverts to ?Private' 'on transfer to ???" As L/cpl was an appointment. rather than a promotion when a man transferred he usually lost his stripe although I see the next entry shows 'appointed' which means he got it back - you've not posted the dates but it looks like in fairly short order which is probably why the entry is deleted. i.e. he probably retained his stripe on transfer but without the full entry can't be certain.

Ken

Here are the dates on Sgt Ernest Cope's service record.... As far as I can tell the parts I do not understand could say the following:

Crossed out section: Reverts to ? ? on transfer to 1/7 (I understand what you mean about a demotion on transfer - but a dilemma I have is that Ernest was married 24th Dec 1915) Could he have been demoted from Acting Lance Sergeant to Private for disobeying an order and went off to get married?

Bottom left section: Permanently excluded from this ? to medical Re-examination under the military service ( ? of ? Act ) 1917.

[kenf48]

Hi, unfortunately the picture size limits imposed by the GWF mean it's difficult to read, now had a look at the original (on 2nd screen, just showing off now!) and can confirm the part that is struck through says '1/7' Bracket 'Reverts to permanent rank on transfer to 1/7' then in the next column 'Pte', i.e. permanent rank Private. You will see the entry above shows 3/7 Transferred from the 3/7. While he was in the 3/7 Battalion he was never promoted each of his progressions through the ranks was an appointment, this was in the gift of his C.O.

Previously on the 1st May he was appointed paid Lance Corporal ( L/Cpl was not a promotion but an appointment); on 28th August he was appointed Acting Corporal and on the 25th September appointed acting lance sergeant. He was clearly a good NCO but when he transferred to the first line Bn on the 27th October he reverted to his permanent rank.

The subsequent entries show shortly after he was appointed L/Sgt again and eventually was promoted to the substantive rank of Sergeant.

While men usually reverted to permanent rank when transferring between Battalions I suspect the entry is struck through because he kept his stripe as paid L/Cpl. (probably kicked up a fuss well you would wouldn't you!).

In July 1917 he was discharged under Par 392 (xvi) Kings Regulations (No longer physically fit for war service).

The next part reads 'Permanently excluded from the liability to Medical Re-examination under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act 1917." This Act was passed as an addendum to the Military Service Act and did exactly what it says in the title.

Men who had been previously rejected by the Army as unfit were subject to review and further medical examination to see if they were fit for service (there were other provisions and grounds for review in the Act). As your man suffered a gunshot wound to the chest and left knee he was issued with a certificate which meant he would never be fit for active service and therefore would not be liable for re-examination and call up under the provisions of the Military Service Act(s).

He was issued with a Silver War Badge indicating he had 'done his bit, unfortunately his surviving records seem rather sparse and paperwork regarding his injuries does not appear to have survived. Great pic of notebook btw.

Ken

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Many thanks for the explenation kenf48, this is the very first time I've come across such appointment's and demotion + transfer at such a rate.... Seems like it all happened so fast for Ernest. Just like you said, he must have proven himself to be a very good NCO.

[johnboy]

Looks WW2 to my untrained eye.