3756 & 266166 Ernest William Cope, 3/7th & 1/7 Btn, Sherwood F

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

D400 is Form D400, which is an army discharge document.

So one of these:

• Army Form D 400 Descriptive Return of Soldier Medically Boarded Before Discharge or Transfer to Reserve
• Army Form D 400A Descriptive Return of Soldier Discharged on Account of Disability
• Army Form D 400Z Descriptive Return of Soldier Discharged or Transferred to Reserve

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/201639-list-of-army-forms

https://armyformsandattestations.blogspot.com/2014/10/army-form-d400-description-on-discharge.html [Nice image of an example D.400 from 1915 here]

M

Edited 30 October , 2023 by Matlock1418
nice example

[LCpl Lee Cope]

29 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

So one of these:

• Army Form D 400 Descriptive Return of Soldier Medically Boarded Before Discharge or Transfer to Reserve
• Army Form D 400A Descriptive Return of Soldier Discharged on Account of Disability
• Army Form D 400Z Descriptive Return of Soldier Discharged or Transferred to Reserve

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/201639-list-of-army-forms

https://armyformsandattestations.blogspot.com/2014/10/army-form-d400-description-on-discharge.html [Nice image of an example D.400 from 1915 here]

M

Hello and thank you. Now I'd really like to get my hands on that document for Ernest... I wonder if it survived? 

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, LCpl Lee Cope said:

Now I'd really like to get my hands on that document for Ernest... I wonder if it survived? 

I think you have a very slim chance of finding it - I've not seen many - but I guess, never say never.

Good luck

M

[LCpl Lee Cope]

28 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I think you have a very slim chance of finding it - I've not seen many - but I guess, never say never.

Good luck

M

Thank you. Is there a D440 database? If any remain, where are they located? 

[Matlock1418]

6 minutes ago, LCpl Lee Cope said:

Is there a D440 database? If any remain, where are they located? 

Not that I know of [but there are plenty of gaps in my knowledge - always happy to hear of such resources]

= So probably scattered in TNA - possibly in Service Records ['Burnt' WO 363], most in likely in Pension files ['Unburnt' WO 364 and PIN 26] - I didn't spot anything for COPE - and in other institutional & private hands.

M

[Matlock1418]

On 29/11/2015 at 14:03, LCpl Lee Cope said:

As Ernest was incapacitated after the war but was still in employment in the colliery, would he have been entitled to any sort of disability pension?

If so, then where would further records of payments to him after the war be held?

Would it be The National Archives again?

Possibly - originating from the MoP - as "PIN 26" files [a small sample of retained disability claim award files] - but I haven't spotted one

8 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

ADDIT. There is also a pension ledger page(s) for this man, notes starting 11.9.20, which records he was a Sgt [phew!], born 1894, was single, lived at 6 Pemberton St., Nottingham and claimed for GSW Knee (Ankylosis) and Fractured Patella - Attrrib. The reverse shows at that time his disability was judged to be 30% and he was receiving 14/- pw from the 1919 RW and that this rate, from 29/11/22, became a permanent award

Think that has answered your question.

You might be interested to note the 1919 RW rates weren't updated until 1946 when disabled WW2 veterans seem to have wanted an increase!  Fancy that!!

In fact I seem to recall reading in Hansard in the 1920s there was even discussion in Parliament where it was mentioned that there was a reduction in the cost of living then and this was being given as an excuse not to raise rates then.

Ever was it thus that pensions were not a generous 'soup ticket' for life and a man was expected to go out to work to the best of his ability - which for COPE, with his stiff knee, would seem to have been adjudged to be 70% able.  The 30% disability pension, i.e. 14/- pw, was intended as a top-up.

M

Edited 30 October , 2023 by Matlock1418
addit

[LCpl Lee Cope]

WOW! Even after over ten years of research into my great grandfather, I'm still finding new things. 

I've just found his death advert in the Burton and Derby Observer newspaper dated 23rd May 1940.

 Everything that I've researched thus far regarding his continual changes of surname from Horton to Watson and finally to Cope checks out. He was known locally as Bill Cope but throughout his life he was also known as 1) William Horton 2) Ernest William Watson and 3) Ernest William Cope. 

I only have one photo of him during WW1 and it's the photo of him with the 5th Battalion Nott's and Derby outside Rosemary house at Harpenden in 1915.

 The funeral advert in the newspaper indicates that he was affiliated with the following organisations: Gresley Colliery, Secretary of the Castle Road Allotments Association, a member of the South Derbyshire Miners Association and groundskeeper at Gresley Rovers FC.

 Were soldiers from WW1, who were also employed as coal miners, listed anywhere as such? 

 I'm hoping that due to coal being in such high demand any wounded soldiers that were employed as 'incapacitated' coal miners, would have been documented somewhere.

Edited 22 January by LCpl Lee Cope

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Hello, this is something that I really need to rule out...

 My great grandfather, Ernest William Cope, was born under the name, 'William Horton' and then he went to live with his grandmother Ann Cope nee Haywood and grew up with his uncle George Cope.

 Ernest's mother was a lady named Louisa Richardson-Cope and she was the daughter a man named George Richardson, but George and Ann Haywood never married. Ann was breifly with a man named William Cope, but later married a man named James Barwell. 

I hope that makes sense...

 Anyway, my great grandfather had lots of alias's and I was told by his youngest son: 'Graham Cope' who's real name was Philip Graham Cope... I know it's mad! That Ernest William Cope/William Horton/Ernest William Watson/Ernest Cope/Bill Cope began life being removed from his father: William Watson and mother Louisa Richardson/Cope and spent the rest of his life at odds with his father.

 There could have also been a few changes of name due to coal miners not earning much and owing money to the powers that be.

 So, I think that I can be forgiven for stating that the search for my great grandfather has been a confusing one. That brings me to my point...

I found these 2/5th and 3/5th Notts and Derby WW1 recruitment papers for a George William Cope (b) 1892 in Tamworth, the same birth year and location as my grandfather, but vaguely different name. My great Grandfather was born in Warton, Warwickshire, very near to Tamworth and It's stated on the paperwork that the recruit has lied about something, but I'm not too sure what it could have been.

Could this be a second attempt by my grandfather to become enlisted? The above photo has him on the front row outside Rosemary House with the 5th Battalion Notts and Derbyshire Regiment at Harpenden.

 266166 & 3756 Ernest Cope enlisted in Nottingham 01/02/1915 with the 3/7th and later transferred to the 1/7th Notts and Derby.

4175 George William Cope (attempted) to enlisted in Derby 22/03/1915 with the 3/5th Notts and Derby. But caught out for lying about something.

5th Battalion Notts and Derby (Harpenden) photo was taken outside Rosemary House in Aug 1915.

Did Ernest really want to be in the 3/5th so much, that he would lie? Or is this a completely different person from my great grandfather. 

And what was put in place to catch those who were willing to lie, in order to join their 'PALS' in certain battalions?  

It's been a total minefield of names and locations, and for all I know, this could actually be two completely seperate people, but I'd just like to rule it out. 

 

Edited 31 October , 2023 by LCpl Lee Cope

[charlie962]

6 hours ago, LCpl Lee Cope said:

lying about something.

'having made false answer on attestation' 

Samuel Cope??

From Findmypast copy service record. 

Edited 31 October , 2023 by charlie962

[Matlock1418]

6 hours ago, LCpl Lee Cope said:

I agree with Charlie - KR para 392 VIII = Having made false answer on attestation

As you say - I wonder what?

His character is Bad so the army must have been quite happy to get rid of him

M

Edited 31 October , 2023 by Matlock1418
add

[LCpl Lee Cope]

9 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

'having made false answer on attestation' 

Samuel Cope??

From Findmypast copy service record.

Arhhhhh thank you!

 So he'd lied about his name and his real name was Samuel Cope. OK, so this rules out any suspicions or potential confusion with my Ernest William Cope, as he'd never been known as Samuel Cope.

 Thank you. 😀 

[charlie962]

3 minutes ago, LCpl Lee Cope said:

Arhhhhh thank you!

 So he'd lied about his name and his real name was Samuel Cope. OK, so this rules out any suspicions or potential confusion with my Ernest William Cope, as he'd never been known as Samuel Cope.

 Thank you. 😀 

Note mother's name I've added to my post.

Edited 31 October , 2023 by charlie962

[Matlock1418]

14 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

'having made false answer on attestation' 

Samuel Cope??

That would do it!

M

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Hello, here's another loose end given to me by Ernest's s youngest son, Philip Graham Cope. The identities of these two men were unknown but Graham and I assumed that the man on the left 'could' be one of his brothers, George or Ronald during WW2. 

 However, I've noticed a few photos online of Notts and Derby soldiers at Harpenden in a similar style head-dress and wondered if this photo could be from WW1? 

[Matlock1418]

19 minutes ago, LCpl Lee Cope said:

The identities of these two men were unknown but Graham and I assumed that the man on the left 'could' be one of his brothers, George or Ronald during WW2. 

 However, I've noticed a few photos online of Notts and Derby soldiers at Harpenden in a similar style head-dress and wondered if this photo could be from WW1? 

This photo: Battledress, side cap and short puttees - Looks WW2 to me. 

M

Edited 1 November , 2023 by Matlock1418

[LCpl Lee Cope]

On 18/12/2014 at 16:21, mikebriggs said:

Hi Lee

Yes its my site and I have the original picture.

I'm a bit confused…….in your first post you said that your great grandfather was a miner and didn't serve in WW1.

Why do you think that he served in the Pre-War Territorials?

Also the picture at Harpenden was taken in August/September 1914 - a few months before the Battalion went to France. If he was serving with the 1/5th Battalion at the time then he would have gone to France with them and served overseas.

cheersMike

Hello, I'm just going over a few things and noticed this bit of information that you've provided.

You say that the Harpenden photo that I'm referring too was taken in 1914. However, I'm a bit confused, because the 'three friends from Castle Gresley' part of the website states that the photo was taken in 1915. It also states that it's the 5th Battalion. 

 Do you know which year the photo was taken... 1914 or 1915? 

Is it definitely 100% the 5th Battalion? 

 Thank you for your knowledge about the photo. 

Edited 15 November , 2023 by LCpl Lee Cope

[mikebriggs]

Hello

Sorry for the confusion. I can't give a precise date, but it was somewhere between August 1914 and February 1915 - but I'm guessing 1914, because it looks summer to me. I made and error with 1915.

It's most definitely the 1/5th Battalion, because I have identified 4 lads in the photo that served with the 1/5th in France. The 2/5th were still in Derby at this time and the 3/5th had not been formed.

Hope that helps 

 

cheers

Mike

[LCpl Lee Cope]

2 minutes ago, mikebriggs said:

Hello

Sorry for the confusion. I can't give a precise date, but it was somewhere between August 1914 and February 1915 - but I'm guessing 1914, because it looks summer to me. I made and error with 1915.

It's most definitely the 1/5th Battalion, because I have identified 4 lads in the photo that served with the 1/5th in France. The 2/5th were still in Derby at this time and the 3/5th had not been formed.

Hope that helps 

 

cheers

Mike

Thank you Mike,

 That helps a lot. I'm still trying to locate my great grandfather Ernest William Cope in the 1/5th, but I cannot find any records that attach him.

 I'm 100% sure that he's the soldier in the bottom right of the Rosemary House photo and it makes perfect sense for him to be there, because his home town was Castle Gresley.

 I'm assuming that he would have known a few lads from H Company, Swadlincote and could have either been attached to the 1/5th or just ended up in the photo because he knew other soldiers at that moment in time.

 The closest I have is an Ernest Cope 3756 & 266166 who was based in Nottingham at the time of his enlistment and with the 3/7th Notts and Derby.

 What are the chances of a soldier being in the Rosemary House 1/5th photo in 1914 and then, for whatever reason, transferring to the 3/7th on the 01st Feb 1915?

 Regards.

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Hello, I'm trying to gauge how disabled my great grandfather would have been after being wounded at Gommecourt. 

 When discharged he was classed as 30% disabled and subsequently became an invalided coal hewer at Moira Colliery. 

 How did the medical board assess and arrive at decisions regarding a soldiers wounds, injuries and disability as a result of conflict?

[LCpl Lee Cope]

I've managed to locate my 1st Great Grandfather's grave at York Rd Cemetery in Church Gresley.

Sgt Ernest William Cope.

 Sadly, even though his health was always affected after his war service, he never received a war grave. He was shot in the chest and knee at Gommecourt and spent the rest of his day's invalided. 

 I can only imagine that he originally had a wooden cross. So, I've emailed the CWGC in the hope that they'll listen to my case for a war grave, but in the mean time I'll get a wooden cross and ensure that his grave is marked. 

 Such a shame that he served during WW1 during The Battle of the Somme and the 2nd battle of Gommecourt and nobody would ever know that he ever existed. 😞 

Edited 17 January by LCpl Lee Cope

[LCpl Lee Cope]

Hello, I've recently had the WW2 photo question cleared up and it turns out that the photo is in fact Sgt Ernest William Cope's eldest son: Pte George William Cope (WW2 POW) on the left in the photo.

He's pictured with his mate: LCpl W Fern of 38 George St, Church Gresley (WW2 POW), on the right, before their deployment to Dunkirk.

So pleased to have discovered the history of this photo and in all honesty, I can now see a distinct resemblance between Ernest and his son George.

 

Edited 22 January by LCpl Lee Cope

[LCpl Lee Cope]

I'd very much like to see if there's any more to this photo/story.

I found these images online a few years back and I'm under the impression that the photo of Ernest is from a newspaper.

Does anybody know what paper it could be from? I'd like to find the original and see if it leads down any new undiscovered avenues.

Edited 22 January by LCpl Lee Cope