Mystery around soldier's service record for W G Bell

[Strand]

You're only entitled to the ribbon If you're entitled to the medals.

Here is a photo of the ribbons and a later photo of him from New Zealand.

[headgardener]

The medal ribbons in the first photo:

1. Military Cross

2. possibly DCM

3. 1914 or 1914/15 star

4. British War Medal

5. Victory Medal with MID oak-leaf

6. Long Service & Good Conduct

7. French Croix de Guerre avec Palme

Something's just come up, I'll post again in a mo......

[headgardener]

Kitchen crisis......

Anyway, 2nd photo:

Top row L to R

1. Distinguished Conduct Medal

2. 1939-45 star

3. 1914 or 1914/15 star

4. Pacific star

Bottom row L to R

1. French Croix de Guerre

2. another 1914 or 1914/15 star

3. British War Medal

4. Long Service & Good Conduct

5. Military Cross

So, if we ignore the WW2 medals for a mo, that leaves an MC, DCM, 14 or 14/15 star, BWM, VM, MID, LS&GC, CdeG.

There are several problems with this. The MC isn't included in the initial photo that you posted. I reckon the initial photo shows an MM ribbon instead of a DCM, although it's very hard to be certain. Long Service & Good Conduct medals were only awarded to other-ranks (i.e. men who weren't officers), yet MC's were only awarded to officers. The LS&GC isn't included in the first photo that you posted, so it's very hard to see how he could have won an MC and then subsequently qualify for an LS&GC. An LS&GC is awarded to regular soldiers btw, and your man appears to have been a TF man in 1916.

DCM's were only awarded to other-ranks (it was the OR's equivalent to an MC). There are many men who won a DCM and were then commissioned and won a subsequent MC, but there's no indication that your man was commissioned - bear in mind that he was an OR at the time that he was wounded in October 1918, so it's hard to see how he could have managed to recover, undergo officer training, and qualify for an MC before the initial photo was taken in 1923.

We also know that he was in a territorial battalion that didn't serve overseas until summer 1915, so it's almost impossible that he could have qualified for a 1914 star. We also know that he was in a reserve unit in the UK in 1916, so it's possible that he may not have qualified for a 1914/15 star.

Then there's the question about his uniform in the first photo - he's wearing a tunic with cuff rank that was already obsolete by 1923. He's also wearing a kilt, but the only members of the KOSB who wore kilts were pipers, and he's an officer. Pipers were invariably OR's.

So many questions.....

We need to try to trace his WW1campaign medals.

[headgardener]

And it would be helpful to trace details of his WW2 service with the NZ army. It should include details of previous service. I find it very hard to imagine that he earned any of these awards apart from a BWM and VM (which are the standard WW1 campaign medals) and the WW2 campaign medals. That's not to denigrate the fact that he served during WW1, and underwent hardship and suffering. Fiction is often less interesting than the truth.

[Terry_Reeves]

The Military Cross could also be awarded to Warrant Officers.

TR

[headgardener]

The Military Cross could also be awarded to Warrant Officers

True. But still technically an officer - just not fully commissioned. And even more improbable - he would have had to go from wounded driver in October 1918 to Warrant Officer in a war zone and then to officer - all by 1923. And then back to the ranks for a very long time in order to qualify for the LS&GC.

[Terry_Reeves]

I'm afraid not, very different indeed. You are either commissioned or you are not, you cannot be "just not fully commissioned" A WO holds his rank by a Warrant (in this case) signed by the Secretary of State for War. An Officer holds holds his rank by a commission authorised by the monarch.

The point of my post though is to point out another avenue to explore, because everything about this man's service is quite improbable. We don't even know for sure that the man in the newspaper report is the correct man. His medals are in the wrong order and we cannot be sure the miniature cross he is wearing is the MC. One thing for sure is that it is not

C de G which is a cross pattée with crossed swords

Given the oddities you have to cast your net wide and see what pops up.

TR

[headgardener]

I'm afraid not, very different indeed. You are either commissioned or you are not, you cannot be "just not fully commissioned" A WO holds his rank by a Warrant (in this case) signed by the Secretary of State for War. An Officer holds holds his rank by a commission authorised by the monarch.

The point of my post though is to point out another avenue to explore, because everything about this man's service is quite improbable. We don't even know for sure that the man in the newspaper report is the correct man.

Given the oddities you have to cast your net wide.

TR

Agreed, but a Warrant Officer is still an officer. He differs from a commissioned officer only by virtue of the fact that his office is granted by warrant. That's why WO's were entitled to MC's, surely? Maybe my choice of words weren't right when I said 'not fully commissioned' - I meant as opposed to warrant rank.

What I didn't consider in my last posts is whether he could have won an MC subsequent to the service that is implied by the photo from 1923.

I just realized that the uniform that he's wearing in the latest photo (with the MC ribbon) isn't NZ army. I'm pretty sure that the fern frond wasn't used as a cap badge at any time either inter-war or during WW2. Maybe his pipe band uniform?

[johnboy]

Anyone had any luck finding a MIC for him?

[Ron Abbott]

I've never come across pictures of KOSB officers wearing kilts as uniform before. Unfortunately it's also very difficult to try and identify tartans in these old black and white photos.

Since the late 1880s, officers have worn trews in Leslie tartan and the pipers have subsequently worn kilts in Royal Stewart although at least one of the TA battalions has also worn the Buccleugh tartan and the red/green Erskine was also worn by Territorial pipers prior to about 1940.

There is an excellent video on youtube of pipers of the 4/5th wearing Buccleugh in Edinburgh in the 1960s.

But furthermore, that sporran is of a pattern I've not come across before. Various sporran cantles have been worn by pipers of the regiment but that is not one I've surfaced before.

I've sent a copy of the photo to a friend who was an officer in the KOSB and who is interested in historical material concerning the regiment. Will update the thread if he has any ideas.

Edited 15 December , 2014 by Ron Abbott

[Guest]

Is this the same fern frond cap badge Click?

Mike

[Sue1]

I know very little about military matters and am myself searching for an elusive WWI man - in the process I acquired part of the Royal Fusiliers War Diary - throughout a lot of the Diary, the Diarist is a W. Bell - could be W.G. but can't find it at the moment. He, along with my grandfather who I am researching, were awarded the MC in the field after the events of the St. Elois Craters in 1916. I will attempt to find this excerpt as it has Capt Bell's signature on it and this can be compared with the signature you have.

Sue

[corisande]

I don't have any more time to dig deeper. Maybe someone can expand on this.

But what about B.S.M William Bell D.C.M in LG click . Awarded GREEK Military Cross whose ribbon looks like this click that is dark red with a blue stripe dome the middle like one of the ones you have in your photo. It would explain why it was worn at the end of his medal bar rather than at the beginning with a British MC.

15389 BSM W Bell RGA was also MID

It does not explain his uniform in 1923 - I suspect that the sporran is the clue rather than the blurred cap badge. 3 tassels seems quite rare. One doubts he would have made up a uniform! But we could ascertain if the medal bar he is wearing could be BSM Bells

The citation for Bell's DCM shows he was in 4th Highland Brigade

[Ron Abbott]

The main badge on the sporran cantle is that of the KOSB.

The sett of the tartan could be red/green Erskine, but it's difficult to tell.

The Pipe Major of the KOSB has long wore a three tassled sporran, but I've never seen any photos/videos of a commissioned officer in the KOSB wearing the kilt when in uniform and the actual design of the cantle itself, I have not come across before.

I'll be very interested if somebody can get to the bottom of what that uniform is!

[Sue1]

I am sorry, I cannot upload the signature although I have saved it under My Pictures - website says it is too large to upload - my skills don't extend to re-sizing.

Sue

[Strand]

And it would be helpful to trace details of his WW2 service with the NZ army. It should include details of previous service. I find it very hard to imagine that he earned any of these awards apart from a BWM and VM (which are the standard WW1 campaign medals) and the WW2 campaign medals. That's not to denigrate the fact that he served during WW1, and underwent hardship and suffering. Fiction is often less interesting than the truth.

Thanks for this information and clarification. I will investigate the NZ records. I also have some documents which relate to his WW2 service and some do mention that he was a Warrant Officer. I wonder if there is anyway to verify the newpaper report of him being wounded?

[Strand]

I'm afraid not, very different indeed. You are either commissioned or you are not, you cannot be "just not fully commissioned" A WO holds his rank by a Warrant (in this case) signed by the Secretary of State for War. An Officer holds holds his rank by a commission authorised by the monarch.

The point of my post though is to point out another avenue to explore, because everything about this man's service is quite improbable. We don't even know for sure that the man in the newspaper report is the correct man. His medals are in the wrong order and we cannot be sure the miniature cross he is wearing is the MC. One thing for sure is that it is not

C de G which is a cross pattée with crossed swords

Given the oddities you have to cast your net wide and see what pops up.

TR

Thanks for this. I would like to get some confirmation of the newspaper report too.

Agreed, but a Warrant Officer is still an officer. He differs from a commissioned officer only by virtue of the fact that his office is granted by warrant. That's why WO's were entitled to MC's, surely? Maybe my choice of words weren't right when I said 'not fully commissioned' - I meant as opposed to warrant rank.

What I didn't consider in my last posts is whether he could have won an MC subsequent to the service that is implied by the photo from 1923.

I just realized that the uniform that he's wearing in the latest photo (with the MC ribbon) isn't NZ army. I'm pretty sure that the fern frond wasn't used as a cap badge at any time either inter-war or during WW2. Maybe his pipe band uniform?

I think he was a member of a pipe band at some point.

[Strand]

I've never come across pictures of KOSB officers wearing kilts as uniform before. Unfortunately it's also very difficult to try and identify tartans in these old black and white photos.

Since the late 1880s, officers have worn trews in Leslie tartan and the pipers have subsequently worn kilts in Royal Stewart although at least one of the TA battalions has also worn the Buccleugh tartan and the red/green Erskine was also worn by Territorial pipers prior to about 1940.

There is an excellent video on youtube of pipers of the 4/5th wearing Buccleugh in Edinburgh in the 1960s.

But furthermore, that sporran is of a pattern I've not come across before. Various sporran cantles have been worn by pipers of the regiment but that is not one I've surfaced before.

I've sent a copy of the photo to a friend who was an officer in the KOSB and who is interested in historical material concerning the regiment. Will update the thread if he has any ideas.

Thanks for your help. Someone else also commented on the sporran being unusual.

[Guest]

There's a service record for 15389 William Bell Click

Mike

[Strand]

Is this the same fern frond cap badge Click?

Mike

Hi - Yes I think it is the same badge - the photo didn't scan too well, but looking at the original it is definitely a fern with N Z across the centre.

I know very little about military matters and am myself searching for an elusive WWI man - in the process I acquired part of the Royal Fusiliers War Diary - throughout a lot of the Diary, the Diarist is a W. Bell - could be W.G. but can't find it at the moment. He, along with my grandfather who I am researching, were awarded the MC in the field after the events of the St. Elois Craters in 1916. I will attempt to find this excerpt as it has Capt Bell's signature on it and this can be compared with the signature you have.

Sue

Thanks. I'm happy to explore any possibility.

[Strand]

I don't have any more time to dig deeper. Maybe someone can expand on this.

But what about B.S.M William Bell D.C.M in LG click . Awarded GREEK Military Cross whose ribbon looks like this click that is dark red with a blue stripe dome the middle like one of the ones you have in your photo. It would explain why it was worn at the end of his medal bar rather than at the beginning with a British MC.

15389 BSM W Bell RGA was also MID

It does not explain his uniform in 1923 - I suspect that the sporran is the clue rather than the blurred cap badge. 3 tassels seems quite rare. One doubts he would have made up a uniform! But we could ascertain if the medal bar he is wearing could be BSM Bells

The citation for Bell's DCM shows he was in 4th Highland Brigade

Thanks for this information. It is possible there is some connection.

[keithmroberts]

The William Bell no 15389 gave his age as 19 years and five months on the attestation page on that record, dated 21 May 1896

The record gives his wife as Clara Hannah.and lists a son William Robert born November 1914. That should surely be enough to confirm or disprove his identity.

Keith

[Ron Abbott]

You mention that he was a member of two pipe bands in New Zealand, the latter as Drum Major.

At least one of these pipe bands is still on the go. Have you thought of writing to them and asking whether they have any old documents/photos from that era?

https://www.facebook.com/hawerapipeband?fref=ts

http://www.nzpipebands.org.nz/pipeband_nzbands_info.php?bandid=34

http://books.google.com.hk/books/about/Hawera_Highland_Pipe_Band_Incorporated.html?id=IKN8MQAACAAJ&redir_esc=y

That pipe band appears to have been established in October 1914.

Don't know if there is a direct family connection, however there is specific mention in the following article of a 'KA Bell' and 'R Bell' attending the inaugural meeting of the band.

http://southtaranakistar.realviewdigital.com/?iid=103987&startpage=page0000012#folio=12

If he'd been with two pipe bands, the obvious question is whether he was a piper or drummer?

I know you mention drum major, but it wouldn't be the first time that a piper (perhaps due to illness or age) has become drum major. And even if drum major only, was he a drum major previously, perhaps in the army?

Edited 16 December , 2014 by Ron Abbott

[FROGSMILE]

My great uncle fought and returned from the great war and story passed down through the family is that he was awarded a number of gallantry awards according to the following list:-

Medals:

Military Cross,

Distinguished Conduct Medal,

Croix de Guerre (1^st Class France & Belgium)*

1914-18 Star with Mons Clasp,

1914-18 Service Medal,*

Victory Medal.

Mentioned in dispatches (2)*

1939-45 NZ Pacific Star

1939-45 NZ Star

He was supposed to have been comissioned in the field and the rank was Captain or Lieutenant.

William George Bell was born:

b.20 March 1893,Old Coshogle, Durisdeer, Dumfriesshire.

Father: David Park Bell

Mother: Helen Kay

I have a photo of him c1914 and a later photo from 1923 (around which time he emigrated to New Zealand). The uniform in the photos has been pinpointed as KOSB, however there is no information reagrding him in the records of the KOSB museum. I have searched Ancestry, London Gazettes, National Archives and found nothing. The local Dumfries & Galloway Herald has on mention of him on 26 October 1918 being wounded in France and listing him as a "Driver". As yet I have not been able to check the indexes for that newspaper after 1918.

I am being to wonder whether this has been made up - why?

In the collection of material that came back from New Zealand after his death were medals and ribbons which matched the list above. Unfortunately the medals have disappeared through time to a family meber I don't have contact with. I still have the ribbons.

Can anyone help or advise where I could look next ??

There are a number of odd things about this photo as many have pointed out. He appears to be wearing quite clearly the insignia of a King's Own Scottish Borderer and yet apart from pipers no KOSB (including TF battalions) wore the kilt (at the time of WW1 pipers of the regulars wore Royal Stewart plaid and Territorial's wore Erskine (red and green type).

His jacket is in fact a re-tailored other ranks pattern of rough, khaki serge and not the fine barathea, or whipcord of a normal officers pattern (this would fit with him being an ex ranker as some men had to resort to this kind of economy). He is also incorrectly wearing miniature medals intended for Mess Uniform.

It looks to me as if he has dressed up for the photo long after leaving the Army and used rather a lot of artistic licence in the dress that he has adopted. Even the sporran is a made-up type, perhaps using the earlier Victorian pattern seen in the b&w photo below (note the 3 tails of the pipers with only the 'pipey' having 2) but with some odd badges attached. All-in-all his outfit seems a bit 'Water Mitty' given that he appears to have had no recorded association with the KOSB

[FROGSMILE]

And colour images showing later pattern pipers sporran.