Strand Posted 11 December , 2014 Share Posted 11 December , 2014 My great uncle fought and returned from the great war and story passed down through the family is that he was awarded a number of gallantry awards according to the following list:- Medals: Military Cross, Distinguished Conduct Medal, Croix de Guerre (1st Class France & Belgium)* 1914-18 Star with Mons Clasp, 1914-18 Service Medal,* Victory Medal. Mentioned in dispatches (2)* 1939-45 NZ Pacific Star 1939-45 NZ Star He was supposed to have been comissioned in the field and the rank was Captain or Lieutenant. William George Bell was born: b.20 March 1893,Old Coshogle, Durisdeer, Dumfriesshire. Father: David Park Bell Mother: Helen Kay I have a photo of him c1914 and a later photo from 1923 (around which time he emigrated to New Zealand). The uniform in the photos has been pinpointed as KOSB, however there is no information reagrding him in the records of the KOSB museum. I have searched Ancestry, London Gazettes, National Archives and found nothing. The local Dumfries & Galloway Herald has on mention of him on 26 October 1918 being wounded in France and listing him as a "Driver". As yet I have not been able to check the indexes for that newspaper after 1918. I am being to wonder whether this has been made up - why? In the collection of material that came back from New Zealand after his death were medals and ribbons which matched the list above. Unfortunately the medals have disappeared through time to a family meber I don't have contact with. I still have the ribbons. Can anyone help or advise where I could look next ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tullybrone Posted 11 December , 2014 Share Posted 11 December , 2014 Hi, Above photo is dated 1923. He may have served post 1919? Have a look at list of service files held by UK MOD for men who were born pre 1901 on topic via below link - it may help. http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=221706&view=getnewpost&hl=&fromsearch=1 You may find mention of him in NZ military archives. Here is link to WW1 records but some WW2 records are also online. http://archives.govt.nz/world-war-one You may want to try WW2talk forum for his WW2 NZ service. http://ww2talk.com/forums/index.php Regards Steve Y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 11 December , 2014 Share Posted 11 December , 2014 It would appear to be that either he was a gigantic con man, or he served under an alias An alias is difficult and time consuming to establish. However if he had both DCM and MC, you could try getting all KOSB men with DCM on Ancestry list, then put each into LG to see if they had an MC later. That would give you a manageable list to research further. To see if you could find them in census and birth info, to see if they existed. Obviously only worth doing if you believe he was the original owner of the uniform and the medals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 11 December , 2014 Share Posted 11 December , 2014 If he was, as you say, awarded the Military Cross he is not wearing it, it would be worn before the DCM, The last medal shown "appears" to be a CDG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Posted 11 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2014 Hi, Above photo is dated 1923. He may have served post 1919? Have a look at list of service files held by UK MOD for men who were born pre 1901 on topic via below link - it may help. http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=221706&view=getnewpost&hl=&fromsearch=1 You may find mention of him in NZ military archives. Here is link to WW1 records but some WW2 records are also online. http://archives.govt.nz/world-war-one You may want to try WW2talk forum for his WW2 NZ service. http://ww2talk.com/forums/index.php Regards Steve Y Thanks Steve I will check out all these options to see if I can find anything. It would appear to be that either he was a gigantic con man, or he served under an alias An alias is difficult and time consuming to establish. However if he had both DCM and MC, you could try getting all KOSB men with DCM on Ancestry list, then put each into LG to see if they had an MC later. That would give you a manageable list to research further. To see if you could find them in census and birth info, to see if they existed. Obviously only worth doing if you believe he was the original owner of the uniform and the medals Thanks for your reply. I did wonder whether he served under a different name but did not know where to start. I will certainly look at your suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Posted 11 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2014 If he was, as you say, awarded the Military Cross he is not wearing it, it would be worn before the DCM, The last medal shown "appears" to be a CDG. Thanks for your reply. Someone else has pointed this out so it is good to get this confirmed. Do you know if the military cross would have carried an inscription with the soldier's name on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 11 December , 2014 Share Posted 11 December , 2014 The Military Cross was not officially named but some recipients had their crosses privately engraved on the reverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headgardener Posted 11 December , 2014 Share Posted 11 December , 2014 It doesn't look like a DCM either. The first medal appears to be an MM, then a 14 or 14/15 star trio, then possibly a C de G. And I'm inclined to say that they look a bit small - maybe miniatures....? The best way to check this out is to look for his name (or maybe someone here could look for his name) in a December 1923 or January 1924 Army List. There should, in theory at least, be a Lieut W.G. Bell, DCM OR MM, serving in the KOSB. Seems awfully formal. Why would he sign a photo to his parents as "Your Loving Son, Lieut. W.G. Bell" rather than just "Bill" or whatever...? Seems as though he was out to impress........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loader Posted 12 December , 2014 Share Posted 12 December , 2014 If he was wounded in 1918 I don't see a wound stripe on his sleeve. Or had theys topped wearing them by 1923? I don't know but hdope you can solve this one soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headgardener Posted 12 December , 2014 Share Posted 12 December , 2014 If he was wounded in 1918 I don't see a wound stripe on his sleeve. Or had theys topped wearing them by 1923?.Wound stripes were discontinued in 1922, but I *think* cuff rank was discontinued in 1920 or 21. And this chap appears to have cuff rank PLUS 2 pips on his epaulette...... Hmmm......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 12 December , 2014 Share Posted 12 December , 2014 The Medal Rolls for KOSB seem to be in numerical order so without a service number it would be a long haul to see if he served with them. Did he have any brothers who might have served? I suppose that he could have been commissioned into KOSB from another regiment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eairicbloodaxe Posted 12 December , 2014 Share Posted 12 December , 2014 Can you post the 1914 photo as well? Maybe that can give some other clues. Regards Iam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Woods Posted 12 December , 2014 Share Posted 12 December , 2014 Could this be him? Dumfries and Galloway Standard - Saturday 26 October 1918 Mr and Mrs Bell, Chapel Brae, Moffat, have got notice that their son, Driver W. G. Bell, has been wounded on the shoulder shrapnel, and is in hospital at the base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Posted 12 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 12 December , 2014 It doesn't look like a DCM either. The first medal appears to be an MM, then a 14 or 14/15 star trio, then possibly a C de G. And I'm inclined to say that they look a bit small - maybe miniatures....? The best way to check this out is to look for his name (or maybe someone here could look for his name) in a December 1923 or January 1924 Army List. There should, in theory at least, be a Lieut W.G. Bell, DCM OR MM, serving in the KOSB. Seems awfully formal. Why would he sign a photo to his parents as "Your Loving Son, Lieut. W.G. Bell" rather than just "Bill" or whatever...? Seems as though he was out to impress........ Yes I feel something is not quite right with the whole story...but I really want to find out.... Thnaks for your reply Could this be him? Dumfries and Galloway Standard - Saturday 26 October 1918 Mr and Mrs Bell, Chapel Brae, Moffat, have got notice that their son, Driver W. G. Bell, has been wounded on the shoulder shrapnel, and is in hospital at the base. Hi thanks yes this looks like him as it is the correct parents and address. But I'm still puzzled why he should be listed as a "driver" on that date and yet appear in 1923 with all these awards. Could this be him? Dumfries and Galloway Standard - Saturday 26 October 1918 Mr and Mrs Bell, Chapel Brae, Moffat, have got notice that their son, Driver W. G. Bell, has been wounded on the shoulder shrapnel, and is in hospital at the base. Yes that's him, but how can this be the same person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Posted 12 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 12 December , 2014 If he was wounded in 1918 I don't see a wound stripe on his sleeve. Or had theys topped wearing them by 1923? I don't know but hdope you can solve this one soon. Thanks any information I find just produces more questions... The Medal Rolls for KOSB seem to be in numerical order so without a service number it would be a long haul to see if he served with them. Did he have any brothers who might have served? I suppose that he could have been commissioned into KOSB from another regiment? Sorry he was the only son. There was a cousin - George Bell who died in the war and he was in Queens Own Cameron Highlanders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headgardener Posted 12 December , 2014 Share Posted 12 December , 2014 Yes I feel something is not quite right with the whole story...but I really want to find out.... Thnaks for your reply Hi thanks yes this looks like him as it is the correct parents and address. But I'm still puzzled why he should be listed as a "driver" on that date and yet appear in 1923 with all these awards. Yes that's him, but how can this be the same person? The MC was only awarded to officers. For him to have an MC would mean that he would almost certainly have to be commissioned and serving in the field by the date of that report (October 1918), but instead he's only a Driver (that's a rank usually reserved for Artillerymen or members of the ASC). We've already established that he isn't wearing an MC, and the first medal probably isn't a DCM and may be an MM. And the medals may be miniatures in any case. And the rank badges on the cuff of the tunic don't really match the date of the photo. I agree that there's something's not quite right here. Any chance of posting the other photo that you have, or any other info about him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abbrover Posted 12 December , 2014 Share Posted 12 December , 2014 Probably nothing to do with him at all but I searched on medal rolls for a WG Bell and came up with 62672 Driver William George Bell RHA, I know the pictures say otherwise, but worth a thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Posted 14 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 December , 2014 The MC was only awarded to officers. For him to have an MC would mean that he would almost certainly have to be commissioned and serving in the field by the date of that report (October 1918), but instead he's only a Driver (that's a rank usually reserved for Artillerymen or members of the ASC). We've already established that he isn't wearing an MC, and the first medal probably isn't a DCM and may be an MM. And the medals may be miniatures in any case. And the rank badges on the cuff of the tunic don't really match the date of the photo. I agree that there's something's not quite right here. Any chance of posting the other photo that you have, or any other info about him? The MC was only awarded to officers. For him to have an MC would mean that he would almost certainly have to be commissioned and serving in the field by the date of that report (October 1918), but instead he's only a Driver (that's a rank usually reserved for Artillerymen or members of the ASC). We've already established that he isn't wearing an MC, and the first medal probably isn't a DCM and may be an MM. And the medals may be miniatures in any case. And the rank badges on the cuff of the tunic don't really match the date of the photo. I agree that there's something's not quite right here. Any chance of posting the other photo that you have, or any other info about him? Hi - thanks for this information. I'm starting to think that there something very odd here. I've attached some more photos of him. The group photo has him sitting second from the left and I have absolutely no information on this. The second photo shows him standing again I have no information on this. I've also attached a brief summary of information on him. I do have quite a lot (including photos of him) post war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 14 December , 2014 Share Posted 14 December , 2014 I still have the ribbons. It would be an idea if you scanned the ribbons and posted them too. We can at least see what the medals he claimed were. No photos have been attached to your post. From memory they have to be small to appear on the forum. Your other option is to but then on a photo web site and give the link here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Posted 14 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 December , 2014 Hi - thanks for this information. I'm starting to think that there something very odd here. I've attached some more photos of him. The group photo has him sitting second from the left and I have absolutely no information on this. The second photo shows him standing again I have no information on this. I've also attached a brief summary of information on him. I do have quite a lot (including photos of him) post war. WILLIAM GEORGE BELL.docx It would be an idea if you scanned the ribbons and posted them too. We can at least see what the medals he claimed were. No photos have been attached to your post. From memory they have to be small to appear on the forum. Your other option is to but then on a photo web site and give the link here Sorry I've now uploaded these, but not sure is I've put them in the right place. If you can't see them please let me know. Thanks Can you post the 1914 photo as well? Maybe that can give some other clues. Regards Iam Hi I've now posted some additional information and photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 14 December , 2014 Share Posted 14 December , 2014 Thanks The photos are there now, but can I repeat the request for medal ribbons, as there seem to be a number of views as to which medals he was wearing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headgardener Posted 14 December , 2014 Share Posted 14 December , 2014 The photos are there, but I tried to open the document that you posted and it comes up as 'unable to read' - maybe you could cut and paste the info into a normal post on this thread? The photos show men of the KOSB, the shape of their metal shoulder titles indicate that they are members of one of the KOSB Territorial Force battalions. The fact that the second photo was taken in Ripon indicates that this particular photo shows men of either the 3/4th or 3/5th KOSB TF battalions who were both in Ripon from about January 1916 until September 1916. The fact that they're all wearing trousers could indicate that they are members of the battalion transport section, which matches his later description as a Driver. I wonder whether we need to look for an ASC or RASC man who had previous service in the KOSB. The fact that he appears to be either 4th or 5th battalion would effectively rule out the possibility of him qualifying for a 1914 star and clasp (your initial description of his medals indicated that your family understood that they were awarded to him). He may have qualified for a 1915 star while serving with the 1/4th or 1/5th at Gallipoli and have been wounded or fallen sick and been transferred back to a Home Service battalion during his recovery (which could explain his presence in Ripon in 1916), alternatively he may not have seen overseas service before late 1916 at the earliest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headgardener Posted 14 December , 2014 Share Posted 14 December , 2014 Hang on....! I'm getting confused. KOSB wore trews rather than kilts, so ignore my comment in my last post regarding him wearing trousers. In which case, the fact that he's wearing a kilt in your initial photo (post #1) doesn't really make sense if he's supposed to be an officer in the KOSB. The only people in the KOSB who wore kilts would be pipers. And an officer wouldn't be a piper....... Yet another anomaly. I suspect that you can see where all this is heading..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Posted 14 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 December , 2014 Thanks for the further information. Here is the information in the document that wouldn't open. WILLIAM GEORGE BELL b.20 March 1893,Old Coshogle, Durisdeer, Dumfriesshire. Father: David Park Bell Mother: Helen Kay 1901 Census: Watscales, Lockerbie 1911 Census: Watscales, Lockerbie. 1918 – father died (1st Dec) – Chapel Brae, Moffat. 1920 – member of award winning Moffat tug-of-war team.(Photo) Living in Moffat 1923 (Photo) Employed by Moffat Town Council Surveyor’s Dept. – left 12 Dec 1923.(Photo) Member of Burgh Fire Brigade. Worked with Taylor & Smith (Joiners & Sawmillers) for 2 years – left 18 Dec 1923. After war worked in Malayan Rubber Plantation then moved to New Zealand in 1920s. Living in New Zealand 1928 1941 - Transport Driver, 88 Union St, Hawera Member of Buffalo Lodge , Hawera, No.72 Member of South Taranaki Returned Services’ Association Member of Hawera Highland Pipe Band Member of Auroa Pipe Band (Drum Major) d. Aged 60, Hawera, New Zealand 1954 Also known as Jock Bell. I will scan the ribbons and post them soon. Could he have the ribbons without receiving the medals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headgardener Posted 14 December , 2014 Share Posted 14 December , 2014 I will scan the ribbons and post them soon. Could he have the ribbons without receiving the medals?[/size][/font] You're only entitled to the ribbon If you're entitled to the medals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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