Mystery around soldier's service record for W G Bell

[Amberdog]

Noticed a David George Bell's Will on line at Scotlandspeople filed 2nd Dec 1918. What stood out was that he was a farmer from Raeburnfoot, Gretna, Dumfriesshire. He was a private with K.O.S.B. who died in France 31/07/1917.

Could this be another cousin perhaps? The mixture of uniform and ribbons isn't due to him inheriting them from other family members maybe? Just a thought.

[Ron Abbott]

I never realised before just how common the name William Bell was or is. There are a fair number of men who served just in the KOSB with that name. In fact, I also have an ancestor with that same name, however definitely a different William Bell.

I note that 'thee' William George Bell at issue (b 1893) here is included in a couple of family ancestry trees on ancestry.com. Have you seen these?

Then there are the two men surnamed Bell who appear to have been at the inaugural meeting of the Hawera Pipe Band in NZ in 1914. Perhaps he already had relatives in that country, thus his travel there.

Here's one 'out the box'......does anyone know whether any of the Scottish school OTCs/Army Cadet Corps had any affiliation with the KOSB? Just wondering whether there is any possibility of him having been an instructor or similar at a school OTC, thus the unusual uniform?

I gather that the likes of Dumfries Academy and Kelso High School had cadet corps affiliated to the KOSB.

There is also a record by the way of a William George Bell getting married in New Zealand in 1920.

Do you know if ever married? If so, if you could provide his wife's name, perhaps something useful could be gleaned from their marriage record or a death record or record of any children.

Edited 17 December , 2014 by Ron Abbott

[Ron Abbott]

Looks as though the sporran may indeed have been a KOSB pipers' pattern sporran from an earlier era:-

http://www.kosb.co.uk/apps/photos/photo?photoid=15788382

[FROGSMILE]

Looks as though the sporran may indeed have been a KOSB pipers' pattern sporran from an earlier era:-

http://www.kosb.co.uk/apps/photos/photo?photoid=15788382

That is the picture that I posted previously. It's interesting that the pipers seem later to have adopted the same sporran as is being worn by the 'pipey' at centre of the image.

[headgardener]

There's a lot of speculation going on at the moment regarding this man's service. There are a couple of ways in which we might move things along.

There are 5 dated references to his service:

There's the first photo in post #20 on this thread. He looks like a very young man, maybe no more than about 19 or 20. He's a Private in a KOSB TF Bn. He's from Dumfrieshire, so it's almost certainly 5/KOSB. I'd suggest that the photo was taken sometime between about 1913 and 1915, probably at summer camp 1914.

Then there's the second photo in post #20. He looks a bit older, and also appears to be a Pte in the KOSB (TF). The photo was taken in Ripon, so that means that he was serving with the 3/5 (or 3/4) KOSB, and it dates the photo to about Jan-Sept 1916.

The third reference is the snippet from the Dumfries & Galloway Standard, dated October 1918; "Mr and Mrs Bell, Chapel Brae, Moffat, have got notice that their son, Driver W. G. Bell, has been wounded on the shoulder shrapnel, and is in hospital at the base." Now, of course, we can't be absolutely certain that it's him, but the home address is correct and the initials are correct, so there's a very good chance that it is.

The fourth reference is the photo in post #1. The photo is dated 1923, and shows him wearing an out-dated officers tunic, plus a kilt and an out-dated sporran - neither of which would be worn by officers. He is wearing a row of miniature medals, starting with either an MM or a DCM. He then has a 14 or 14/15 star trio (his relatives understand that he was awarded a 14 star and clasp).

The fifth reference is the photo taken in New Zealand, which is presumably inter-war or WW2 vintage. It shows him wearing emblems for the MC, DCM, MID, C de G avec palme.

If he was KOSB TF in about 1914, and was still KOSB TF in 1916, then that effectively rules out the possibility that he qualified for a 1914 star. He could have served with the 1/5 (or 1/4) KOSB at Gallipoli, in which case he would have a 15 star. According to the MIC's, the problem is that there's no William George Bell, or William G. Bell, or W.G. Bell who served overseas with the KOSB during WW1. Also, there are no MIC's for an officer (of any regiment) under any combination of these names - and it couldn't simply be that he was commissioned in 1916 and never claimed his medals because an MIC would invariably have been generated for his 15 star. And this man clearly liked his medals, so I can't really imagine him not claiming his entitlement!

There were 16x William Bell who served overseas with the KOSB, of which there are only 2 likely candidates:

William BELL, Pte 1421 5/KOSB, transferred to R. Scots (Pte, 3960), transferred again to R Scots Fus (pte, 40794)

William BELL, Pte 1/4 KOSB, 723 & 200107 (a/Cpl)

There's also a William Bell 5/KOSB, with the number 20086, which looks like a Kitchener recruits number, so I wonder whether this is a transcription error. Maybe someone could check?

All the other William BELL in the KOSB are either Kitchener volunteers, or pre-war regulars, or have post 1917 TF numbers. I dare say that some may be casualties (i havent't checked yet).

If we want to move this on, then my suggestions are:

1. Search Ancestry and FMP for the various William BELL's that could have served in the KOSB (I don't have a subscription to either, but I can post the list of names and numbers from the MIC's if anyone has the will to check).

2. Check the Casualty Lists for October 1918, as there should be details of the Dvr. W.G. Bell who was reported wounded at that time.

3. Check the Monthly Army List for sometime around Nov 1923, or possibly at random dates between 1918 and 1923, to see if there ever was a Lieut (presumably previously a 2/Lieut.) W. G. Bell serving in the KOSB.

I predict that we are looking for a man who earned a BWM/VM pair, and who was never an officer.

There was 1x W.G. Bell (Pte, 26823, R Warw R), and 21x William G. Bell's. Of the 21 William G. Bell's we can probably reduce it by checking for casualties and men who had pre-war or 1914/15 enlistments. A rough calculation by me brings the list down to about 12. Checking the various middle initials on the medal rolls will bring the list down further. I can post the list if anyone wants to check, but the Causalty Lists, Army Lists and service papers offer the best chance of tracking down his service, imho.

I can check the CWGC stuff, but can't check the other online stuff I'm afraid......

[Strand]

The William Bell no 15389 gave his age as 19 years and five months on the attestation page on that record, dated 21 May 1896

The record gives his wife as Clara Hannah.and lists a son William Robert born November 1914. That should surely be enough to confirm or disprove his identity.

Keith

Thanks for the information. This confirms it is definitely not him as he never married.

[Strand]

You mention that he was a member of two pipe bands in New Zealand, the latter as Drum Major.

At least one of these pipe bands is still on the go. Have you thought of writing to them and asking whether they have any old documents/photos from that era?

https://www.facebook.com/hawerapipeband?fref=ts

http://www.nzpipebands.org.nz/pipeband_nzbands_info.php?bandid=34

http://books.google.com.hk/books/about/Hawera_Highland_Pipe_Band_Incorporated.html?id=IKN8MQAACAAJ&redir_esc=y

That pipe band appears to have been established in October 1914.

Don't know if there is a direct family connection, however there is specific mention in the following article of a 'KA Bell' and 'R Bell' attending the inaugural meeting of the band.

http://southtaranakistar.realviewdigital.com/?iid=103987&startpage=page0000012#folio=12

If he'd been with two pipe bands, the obvious question is whether he was a piper or drummer?

I know you mention drum major, but it wouldn't be the first time that a piper (perhaps due to illness or age) has become drum major. And even if drum major only, was he a drum major previously, perhaps in the army?

That's interesting but I don't think those Bells are connected, but it is definitely the same band he was in.

[Strand]

Noticed a David George Bell's Will on line at Scotlandspeople filed 2nd Dec 1918. What stood out was that he was a farmer from Raeburnfoot, Gretna, Dumfriesshire. He was a private with K.O.S.B. who died in France 31/07/1917.

Could this be another cousin perhaps? The mixture of uniform and ribbons isn't due to him inheriting them from other family members maybe? Just a thought.

Could be a relation and it would now appear that the uniform is a bit made up.

[Strand]

I never realised before just how common the name William Bell was or is. There are a fair number of men who served just in the KOSB with that name. In fact, I also have an ancestor with that same name, however definitely a different William Bell.

I note that 'thee' William George Bell at issue (b 1893) here is included in a couple of family ancestry trees on ancestry.com. Have you seen these?

Then there are the two men surnamed Bell who appear to have been at the inaugural meeting of the Hawera Pipe Band in NZ in 1914. Perhaps he already had relatives in that country, thus his travel there.

Here's one 'out the box'......does anyone know whether any of the Scottish school OTCs/Army Cadet Corps had any affiliation with the KOSB? Just wondering whether there is any possibility of him having been an instructor or similar at a school OTC, thus the unusual uniform?

I gather that the likes of Dumfries Academy and Kelso High School had cadet corps affiliated to the KOSB.

There is also a record by the way of a William George Bell getting married in New Zealand in 1920.

Do you know if ever married? If so, if you could provide his wife's name, perhaps something useful could be gleaned from their marriage record or a death record or record of any children.

No he never married, either in NZ or UK. The last mention I have of him in the UK is 1923. I have a couple of employment references for dated at that time.

[Strand]

There's a lot of speculation going on at the moment regarding this man's service. There are a couple of ways in which we might move things along.

There are 5 dated references to this man's service.

The earliest reference is the first photo in post #20 on this thread. He looks like a very young man, maybe no more than about 19 or 20. He's a Private in a KOSB TF Bn. He's from Dumfrieshire, so it's almost certainly 5/KOSB. I'd suggest that the photo was taken sometime between about 1913 and 1915, probably at summer camp 1914.

The second reference is the second photo in post #20. He looks a bit older, and also appears to be a Pte in the KOSB (TF). The photo was taken in Ripon, so that means that he was serving with the 3/5 (or 3/4) KOSB, and it dates the photo to about Jan-Sept 1916.

The third reference is the snippet from the Dumfries & Galloway Standard, dated October 1918; "Mr and Mrs Bell, Chapel Brae, Moffat, have got notice that their son, Driver W. G. Bell, has been wounded on the shoulder shrapnel, and is in hospital at the base." Now, of course, we can't be absolutely certain that it's him, but the home address is correct and the initials are correct, so there's a very good chance that it is.

The fourth reference is the photo in post #1. The photo is dated 1923, and shows him wearing an out-dated officers tunic, plus a kilt and an out-dated sporran - neither of which would be worn by officers. He is wearing a row of medals, starting with either an MM or a DCM. He then has a 14 or 14/15 star trio (his relatives understand that he was awarded a 14 star and clasp).

The fifth reference is the photo taken in New Zealand, which is presumably inter-war or WW2 vintage. It shows him wearing emblems for the MC, DCM, MID, C de G avec palme.

If he was KOSB TF in about 1914, and was still KOSB TF in 1916, then that effectively rules out the possibility that he qualified for a 1914 star. He could have served with the 1/5 (or 1/4) KOSB at Gallipoli, in which case he would have a 15 star. According to the MIC's, the problem is that there is no William George Bell, or William G. Bell, or W.G. Bell who served overseas with the KOSB during WW1. Also, there are no MIC's for an officer (of any regiment) under any combination of these names - and if he wasn't an officer in 1916 then it couldn't simply be that he never claimed his medals because an MIC would have been generated for his 15 star. And this man clearly liked his medals, so I can't really imagine him not claiming his entitlement! What do you reckon...?!

There were 16x William Bell who served overseas with the KOSB, of which there are only 2 likely candidates:

William BELL, Pte 1421 5/KOSB, transferred to R. Scots (Pte, 3960), transferred again to R Scots Fus (pte, 40794)

William BELL, Pte 1/4 KOSB, 723 & 200107 (a/Cpl)

There's also a William Bell 5/KOSB, with the number 20086, and I wonder whether this is a transcription error. Maybe someone could check?

All the other William BELL in the KOSB are either Kitchener volunteers, or pre-war regulars, or have post 1917 TF numbers. I dare say that some may be casualties (i havent't checked yet).

If we want to move this on, then my suggestions are:

1. Search Ancestry and FMP for the various William BELL's that could have served in the KOSB (I don't have a subscription to either, but I can post the list of names and numbers from the MIC's if anyone has the will to check).

2. Check the Casualty Lists for October 1918, as there should be some details of the Dvr. W.G. Bell who was reported wounded at that time.

3. Check the Monthly Army List for sometime around Nov 1923, or possibly at random dates between 1918 and 1923, to see if there ever was a Lieut (presumably previously a 2/Lieut.) W. G. Bell serving in the KOSB.

I predict that we are looking for a man who earned a BWM/VM pair, and who was never an officer. There was 1x W.G. Bell (Pte, 26823, R Warw R), and 21x William G. Bell's. Of the 21 William G. Bell's we can probably reduce it by checking for casualties and men who had pre-war or 1914/15 enlistments. A rough calculation by me brings the list down to about 12. Checking the medal rolls will bring the list down further. I can post the list if anyone wants to check, but the Causalty Lists, Army Lists and service papers offer the best chance of tracking down his service, imho.

I can check the CWGC stuff, but can't check the other online stuff I'm afraid......

Many thanks for this summary. I can check Ancestry. I did this previously but without all the information to hand now. Where can I find the casualty lists? and are the army lists available online?

[headgardener]

Many thanks for this summary. I can check Ancestry. I did this previously but without all the information to hand now. Where can I find the casualty lists? and are the army lists available online?

I understand that the official Casualty lists are available on The Genealogist website (subscription, I believe). I've never searched the online version, so maybe someone here can advise on the practicalities....? The fact that his name appeared in a local newspaper towards the end of October 1918 indicates that his name appeared in the casualty lists shortly before that date. I gather that there was generally something like a 3-5 week gap between a man being reported wounded and his details being printed in a Casualty List. It should have his name, rank, unit, hopefully his service number, and place of birth or enlistment. I reckon that finding this entry may crack the case....!

Monthly Army Lists aren't available online - maybe someone here has one for sometime between Nov1918 and Nov 1923...? I suspect that this will confirm that there wasn't a KOSB officer with this name.

I'll post a list of the various names, regiments and service numbers for the various WG Bell, William G Bell and William Bell, and I'll try to flag up the ones that are most likely to be your man. The search facility on FMP looks a bit more sensitive to me, so you might want to double-check on that after Ancestry.

[johntanner]

The only William George Bell on the 2nd NZEF rolls is an infantry private.

[Strand]

I understand that the official Casualty lists are available on The Genealogist website (subscription, I believe). I've never searched the online version, so maybe someone here can advise on the practicalities....? The fact that his name appeared in a local newspaper towards the end of October 1918 indicates that his name appeared in the casualty lists shortly before that date. I gather that there was generally something like a 3-5 week gap between a man being reported wounded and his details being printed in a Casualty List. It should have his name, rank, unit, hopefully his service number, and place of birth or enlistment. I reckon that finding this entry may crack the case....!

Monthly Army Lists aren't available online - maybe someone here has one for sometime between Nov1918 and Nov 1923...? I suspect that this will confirm that there wasn't a KOSB officer with this name.

I'll post a list of the various names, regiments and service numbers for the various WG Bell, William G Bell and William Bell, and I'll try to flag up the ones that are most likely to be your man. The search facility on FMP looks a bit more sensitive to me, so you might want to double-check on that after Ancestry.

OK thanks that sounds like the best option. Mnay thanks again for your help. If I make any progress I'll post it.

[Ron Abbott]

I received the following from a friend who is former commissioned officer in the KOSB:-

Interesting - you get the impression that the photo was taken after the Great War - just by the fact that he is wearing minatures - the full size medals not being struck until after the war. It looks as it he has an MID oak leaf beneath the medals - again not unusual if he was still to receive the full size medals.

The dress sporran would have taken some preparation - the KOSB piipers sporran is limited to the single 'dog and bonnet' badge - which adds weight to the possibility that it was post war creativity of some sort The tartan is certainly not Leslie an so perhaps borrowed in the absence of trews perhaps.

Interesting that following the Armistice, the Regular battalions of the British Army were immediately sent to far flung parts - including Russia, the Balkans, and (I read) places such as Central Asia for garrison duties.

Officers normally appeared in well prepared dress for family photographs and the fact that he is wearing medals suggests some time after the War and perhaps a need to make up deficient items such as trews - which would have been unlikely to have been issued if Lt Bell had left the Army at the end of hostilities.

[Amberdog]

Had a quick look at Scotlandspeople website and there is a Will for a William Bell Pte Service No: 40214, so that rules that William out.

I also had a look at the Deaths Minor Records where casualties are recorded and a general sweep of 1914-1919 revealed 50+ death entries. I've no credits left for the website but opening those couple of pages would likely allow you to rule out all the casualties from the list of William Bell's.

[Guest]

Hello, 

         My name is Sean Trott and I think this is the same man buried in our cemetery in Hawera.

However something is not ringing true as the records of his service in NZ dosen't show up and the two NZ medals are the wrong ones. I have found a man going by this mans name with the Home Guard in Taranaki New Zealand service ( as a Captain) but he did not go outside of NZ which would mean he should not have got the Pacific Star.

If he was to get anything it would have been the Defence Medal.

The Service number does not show up on any search engines

Details on marker 

W.O.1 W.G. Bell

M.C. D.C.M. Croix De Guerre

N.Z. Military Forces

Died 2.11.1954

Service number 313872

Edited 8 November , 2019 by Guest

[Michael Fawkes]

Hi 

I am just picking up this thread and the soldier being discussed here is my great uncle and I possess the same picture at the start of this thread . I have several family items that have been passed on including a swagger stick .