Pipe Major D F Robertson 23rd Royal Fusiliers 1st Sportsman's Bt

[jimmy4174]

Hi, I'm looking for a photo of Pipe Major Donald F Robertson 23rd Royal Fusiliers 1st Sportsman's battalion and any photo's or information on this particular Pipeband, I have Pipes of War and the details in there. If you have any other photo's or information about this band it would be much appreciated?

Many Thanks

Jimmy

[Ron Abbott]

Aad Aboode may be able to assist you. He has authored a publication on pipe majors of the armies around the world and is knowledgeable on the backgrounds of some of them.

He is a member of these forums.

 

If you can't get hold of him through the forums, drop me a message and I'll give you his email address.

There is actually a bagpipe tune called, "The 23rd Royal Fusiliers Advance on Cambrai" composed by Piper John Adamson. The music can be found in, 'The Pipes of War' A Collection of Original Pipe Tunes Composed During Wolrd War 1'.

I note that Piper Adamson is also mentioned in the Pipes of War (as mentioned by you above).

This may also be of interest:-

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20377/20377-h/20377-h.htm

There is mention of regimental pipers having been with the 23rd battalion since the beginning.

[jimmy4174]

Hi Ron, Thanks for your help, Yes this chap is in Aad's excellent wee book of as many Scottish Pipe Majors as he can find and having bought his book I have his contact details and its well worth buying if you are interested in Pipe Bands

I have checked out your other link and managed to get a copy of Fred Wards book from Amazon and also another one called Hard as Nails on the Spotsmens Battallion Thanks very much for the link.

I'm looking forward to finding a photograph of him now or the band

Any help is much appreciated Thank You

Jimmy

[wbremner]

Hi Jimmy,

The below photograph is from the Sportsman's Gazette, March 1915. It shows some of the "Gillies and Gamekeepers" of the 23rd Royal Fusiliers (First Sportsman's Battalion). I don't know for sure if your chap is in there, but it does mention a "Piper Sergt. Robertson, who has served with the 5th Battalion Royal Highlanders".

The Sportsman's Battalion did a lot of recruiting in Scotland, as recorded on my website about the Sportsman's Battalions.

I'll see if I can find anything else on Robertson.

William

Hi, I'm looking for a photo of Pipe Major Donald F Robertson 23rd Royal Fusiliers 1st Sportsman's battalion and any photo's or information on this particular Pipeband, I have Pipes of War and the details in there and any other photo's or information about this band would be much appreciated?

Many Thanks

Jimmy

[aboode]

Sorry I can not be of any help with regard to P/M Donald F. Robertson; I only have his name on my list but have no other information about him.

Aad Boode

[Ron Abbott]

Donald Fergus Robertson is listed in the Medal Rolls Index as having been a Serjeant (1339) in the Royal Fusiliers as of November 1915. He remained in the army until February 1919.

I note that there is a person of the same name (Donald Fergus Robertson) who was born in Killin but died in Perth on 11th Dec 1962 aged 85, formerly a gamekeeper. He was a widower. His widow is named as Annie Taylor. The death certificate provides his father's name as Donald Ferguson and that he had also been a gamekeeper.

They were married in Perth in 1907 at which time he was also recorded as a gamekeeper. The Perthshire origins could relate to the Royal Highlanders/Black Watch former service.

Looks like he and Annie had a son born in 1915, named Fergus Donald Robertson. Unfortunately the birth certificate is not directly accessible via the Scotland's People website as that may have given details as to which regiment/unit the father was serving in at the time of the child's birth.

Edited 21 November , 2014 by Ron Abbott

[wbremner]

Here's a blow-up of the chap in the center of the group photo.

The quality is not great, but you can make out his Sergeant's stripes, so I would say there's a good chance it's him.

William

[jimmy4174]

Here's a blow-up of the chap in the center of the group photo.

The quality is not great, but you can make out his Sergeant's stripes, so I would say there's a good chance it's him.

William

Hi, Thank You Very Much Indeed for the group photo and the blow up of him, I Really Appreciate you and the forums help with this.

Please can you tell me if any of the pipers in the photo are wearing Sgt's stripes or are they Corporals? and was there any mention of Pipe Sgt. Robertson in any of the later sportsmens gazettes?

Many Thanks

Jimmy

[jimmy4174]

Donald Fergus Robertson is listed in the Medal Rolls Index as having been a Serjeant (1339) in the Royal Fusiliers as of November 1915. He remained in the army until February 1919.

I note that there is a person of the same name (Donald Fergus Robertson) who was born in Killin but died in Perth on 11th Dec 1962 aged 85, formerly a gamekeeper. He was a widower. His widow is named as Annie Taylor. The death certificate provides his father's name as Donald Ferguson and that he had also been a gamekeeper.

They were married in Perth in 1907 at which time he was also recorded as a gamekeeper. The Perthshire origins could relate to the Royal Highlanders/Black Watch former service.

Looks like he and Annie had a son born in 1915, named Fergus Donald Robertson. Unfortunately the birth certificate is not directly accessible via the Scotland's People website as that may have given details as to which regiment/unit the father was serving in at the time of the child's birth.

Ron, What can I say? This is amazing information and I'm indebted to you also for help with researching Pipe Major Robertson Thank You Very Much Indeed!!!

I will now try and do a bit digging into his 5th Black Watch service and I'm planning a visit to register house soon so I'll look up his sons birth when I go and let you know the outcome?

Cheers

Jimmy

[wbremner]

The two pipers at each end of the photo are wearing what appears to be Corporal's stripes. No-one else has stripes as far as I can tell.

I'm looking for anything else on Sergt. Robertson in the other gazettes, but nothing yet. I'll let you know if I come across anything.

His SPTS number is 1339, which means he most likely enlisted in December 1914 or January 1915. The following article in the Glasgow Herald of December 12th 1914 highlights a push by the Sportsman's Battalion to recruit more soldiers from Scotland, including "a pipe-major and six pipers".

He would have gone out to France with the battalion in November 1915 (as listed on his Medal Index Card).

Hi, Thanks You Very Much Indeed for the group photo and the blow up of him, I Really Appreciate you and the forums help with this.

Please can you tell me if any of the pipers in the photo are wearing Sgt's stripes or are they Corporals? and was there any mention of Pipe Sgt. Robertson in any of the later sportsmens gazettes?

Many Thanks

Jimmy

[aboode]

That is some good news!

If P/M Robertson died in 1962 age 85 he was probably born in 1877. Would it be fair to assume that he was P/M from 1915 to 1919?

If anyone has more accurate information please let me know.

Aad

[jimmy4174]

The two pipers at each end of the photo are wearing what appears to be Corporal's stripes. No-one else has stripes as far as I can tell.

I'm looking for anything else on Sergt. Robertson in the other gazettes, but nothing yet. I'll let you know if I come across anything.

His SPTS number is 1339, which means he most likely enlisted in December 1914 or January 1915. The following article in the Glasgow Herald of December 12th 1914 highlights a push by the Sportsman's Battalion to recruit more soldiers from Scotland, including "a pipe-major and six pipers".

He would have gone out to France with the battalion in November 1915 (as listed on his Medal Index Card).

Hi, Thanks again for the information which helps me understand why an English regiment ended up with a pipe band, I can only assume that Donald and some of his friends volunteered and away they went. He would be very fit fit being a gamekeeper and also with him being about 40 and the Sportsmens battalion willing to take older me he would fit in perfectly.

If you come accross any other information it would be very welcome indeed, especially a photo with his pipes

Cheers

Jimmy

[jimmy4174]

That is some good news!

If P/M Robertson died in 1962 age 85 he was probably born in 1877. Would it be fair to assume that he was P/M from 1915 to 1919?

If anyone has more accurate information please let me know.

Aad

Hi Aad, I would say he was most definitley the P/M from 1915 to 1919

You will need to update your list now, have you made many more entry's in your book since last year?

Cheers

Jimmy

[jimmy4174]

Hi Jimmy,

The below photograph is from the Sportsman's Gazette, March 1915. It shows some of the "Gillies and Gamekeepers" of the 23rd Royal Fusiliers (First Sportsman's Battalion). I don't know for sure if your chap is in there, but it does mention a "Piper Sergt. Robertson, who has served with the 5th Battalion Royal Highlanders".

The Sportsman's Battalion did a lot of recruiting in Scotland, as recorded on my website about the Sportsman's Battalions.

I'll see if I can find anything else on Robertson.

William

Hi William, I never noticed the link to your website and have just checked it out, what a great source of information on the Sportsmens battalion

Thank You

Jimmy

[wbremner]

Hi Jimmy,

Thanks. If you uncover anything else regarding Robertson or the Sportsman's Battalion that you can share, please do so! I will do same.

Hi William, I never noticed the link to your website and have just checked it out, what a great source of information on the Sportsmens battalion

Thank You

Jimmy

[wbremner]

Aad - in WW1, how many English Battalions had a pipe band? Interested to know how unique the Sportsman's Battalion was in this regard. Thanks, William.

That is some good news!If P/M Robertson died in 1962 age 85 he was probably born in 1877. Would it be fair to assume that he was P/M from 1915 to 1919?If anyone has more accurate information please let me know.Aad

[jimmy4174]

Aad - in WW1, how many English Battalions had a pipe band? Interested to know how unique the Sportsman's Battalion was in this regard. Thanks, William.

Hi William, That might be a tricky question to answer, there are a few regiments listed in pipes of war. The obvious Liverpool Scottish and London Scottish, Tyneside Scottish and Irish, The 16th Middlesex and the 23rd Royal Fusiliers. I remember watching a programe or video a long time ago where the last Great War living Piper, Harry Lunnan of the Gordons was being interviewed and he said that a lot of the English regiments wanted pipers as it was recognised that the sound of the pipes helped motivate the men. He said that if they had asked or ordered him to go that there was no way he would do it. So perhaps it may not have always been a full pipe band that some regiments had, it's certainly an intersting thought? I also wonder when the RAF or the Navy first adoped pipers?

Cheers

Jimmy

[Ron Abbott]

Hi Jimmy, the 1881 census has Donald Fergus Robertson being born 'about 1878' in Killin. He appears to have had a at least six brothers and sisters. Their names are recorded as are the names of his mother and father.

From what I can gather, his son (Fergus Donald Robertson) passed away in 2000, also aged 85.

What is your main interest, Robertson himself or the Pipes & Drums of the 23rd Royal Fusiliers?

[jimmy4174]

Hi Jimmy, the 1881 census has Donald Fergus Robertson being born 'about 1878' in Killin. He appears to have had a at least six brothers and sisters. Their names are recorded as are the names of his mother and father.

From what I can gather, his son (Fergus Donald Robertson) passed away in 2000, also aged 85.

What is your main interest, Robertson himself or the Pipes & Drums of the 23rd Royal Fusiliers?

Hi Ron, I'm interested in Robertson as a Piper and also a Gamekeeper and the circumstaces of him becoming a Pipe Major of an English regiment and thanks to the help with information from yourself and fellow forum members there's an interesting story building. The other strange thing is I was researching another P/M recently and he also came from Killin with a gamekeeping background I think? I enjoy delving into the Pipers of the past and trying to find photographs of them, Is your main interest Pipers Too?

Thanks for your help Ron

Cheers

Jimmy

[wbremner]

Jimmy,

Just for grins, did a quick cross-reference from my database to other pipers in the 23rd RF listed in "Pipes of War".

SPTS/1280 - Pte./Piper William Johnstone - enlisted Dec 19th, 1914

SPTS/1339 - Sgt./Pipe-Major Donald F. Robertson

SPTS/1344 - Pte./Piper W.A. Foreman

SPTS/1345 - Pte./Piper William F. Suttie - enlisted Kirriemuir (Dundee)

SPTS/1423 - Pte./Piper David Seath - enlisted Dundee, Jan 9th, 1915

Given the proximity of the numbering, looks like your chap possibly enlisted in Dundee with Foreman and Suttie. Dundee is about 30 miles from (and connected by train line with) Perth, so that lines up quite nicely with Ron's findings above. Capt. Westhead was successful in finding his pipers!

Here's another relevant newspaper article from mid-December in Dundee:

[Ron Abbott]

Hi Ron, I'm interested in Robertson as a Piper and also a Gamekeeper and the circumstaces of him becoming a Pipe Major of an English regiment and thanks to the help with information from yourself and fellow forum members there's an interesting story building. The other strange thing is I was researching another P/M recently and he also came from Killin with a gamekeeping background I think? I enjoy delving into the Pipers of the past and trying to find photographs of them, Is your main interest Pipers Too?

Thanks for your help Ron

Cheers

Jimmy

Hi Jimmy, who was the other P/M from Killin?

Main interest? Yes, anything piping related and 'in the past'.

I wrote an article for a piping magazine a few years ago about a P/M (Mackie) who was last seen/heard alive at Stanley in Hong Kong as the Japanese attacked his position on 24th Dec 1941. Prior to serving as P/M with the Pipes & Drums of the 2nd (Scottish) Coy of the HK Volunteer Defence Corps since c1920, he had served with the KOSB throughout WW1 and prior to that in the Seaforth Highlanders.

One of my own ancestors (Adam Porteous) was Pipe-Corporal of the Pipes & Drums of 1 RSF. He lost his life in WW1, being wounded three times on the Western Front and subsequently died of his wounds (in 1915).

I've got most pipe music books, from my father; many of which are now of print; however I don't have that relatively new one.....the Black Watch Collection of Pipe Music. Maybe someone on the forum does? I'm just thinking that there may be photos of the 5th Black Watch pipers pre-1915 in it?

With regard to pipers in 'non-Scottish or Irish' units (for want of a better expression), this thread might be of interest to you:-

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=213505

I presume you have already seen this next one?

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=31689&page=4&hl=%2Bpiper+%2Bfusiliers#entry1549343

A good friend of my father also lived just along from Killin and he was a piper, namely (the late) Pat Sandeman (father of Mary Sandeman, the gaelic singer) . Pat was one of the founding members of the Eagle Pipers Society.

Edited 22 November , 2014 by Ron Abbott

[jimmy4174]

Hi Jimmy, who was the other P/M from Killin?

Main interest? Yes, anything piping related and 'in the past'.

I wrote an article for a piping magazine a few years ago about a P/M (Mackie) who was last seen/heard alive at Stanley in Hong Kong as the Japanese attacked his position on 24th Dec 1941. Prior to serving as P/M with the Pipes & Drums of the 2nd (Scottish) Coy of the HK Volunteer Defence Corps since c1920, he had served with the KOSB throughout WW1 and prior to that in the Seaforth Highlanders.

One of my own ancestors (Adam Porteous) was Pipe-Corporal of the Pipes & Drums of 1 RSF. He lost his life in WW1, being wounded three times on the Western Front and subsequently died of his wounds (in 1915).

I've got most pipe music books, from my father; many of which are now of print; however I don't have that relatively new one.....the Black Watch Collection of Pipe Music. Maybe someone on the forum does? I'm just thinking that there may be photos of the 5th Black Watch pipers pre-1915 in it?

With regard to pipers in 'non-Scottish or Irish' units (for want of a better expression), this thread might be of interest to you:-

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=213505

I presume you have already seen this next one?

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=31689&page=4&hl=%2Bpiper+%2Bfusiliers#entry1549343

A good friend of my father also lived just along from Killin and he was a piper, namely (the late) Pat Sandeman (father of Mary Sandeman, the gaelic singer) . Pat was one of the founding members of the Eagle Pipers Society.

Hi Ron, I've just nipped on for a quick look so don't have time for a proper reply, I thought I better tell you before you rush out to buy the latest Black Watch pipe tune book that it's full of tunes and very few photos or information on the band, so unless you're a piper don't put it on your Christmas list.

Cheers

Jimmy

[jimmy4174]

Jimmy,

Just for grins, did a quick cross-reference from my database to other pipers in the 23rd RF listed in "Pipes of War".

SPTS/1280 - Pte./Piper William Johnstone - enlisted Dec 19th, 1914

SPTS/1339 - Sgt./Pipe-Major Donald F. Robertson

SPTS/1344 - Pte./Piper W.A. Foreman

SPTS/1345 - Pte./Piper William F. Suttie - enlisted Kirriemuir (Dundee)

SPTS/1423 - Pte./Piper David Seath - enlisted Dundee, Jan 9th, 1915

Given the proximity of the numbering, looks like your chap possibly enlisted in Dundee with Foreman and Suttie. Dundee is about 30 miles from (and connected by train line with) Perth, so that lines up quite nicely with Ron's findings above. Capt. Westhead was successful in finding his pipers!

Here's another relevant newspaper article from mid-December in Dundee:

Hi William, Thanks for the info on the other pipers, I've just nipped in for a quick reply. I received the book Hard As Nails about the battalion this morning but have not had the time to read it but after a quick flick through there is a photo with the pipers playing down the street,it's not a great photo but as soon as I can get time and work out how to post it I'll attach it.

Here's another one from Pipes of war for you 1135 T McClunie, 967 Alex McLennan,4076 John Adamson, 1827 William Mackenzie and the last one D. Leath I don't have anything for?

Cheers

Jimmy

[Ron Abbott]

Hi Ron, I've just nipped on for a quick look so don't have time for a proper reply, I thought I better tell you before you rush out to buy the latest Black Watch pipe tune book that it's full of tunes and very few photos or information on the band, so unless you're a piper don't put it on your Christmas list.

Cheers

Jimmy

I am a piper, but I still wouldn't put it on my Christmas list!

[jimmy4174]

Here's a photograph of the Pipe Band marching