Pipe Major D F Robertson 23rd Royal Fusiliers 1st Sportsman's Bt

[Carnbo Lad]

Hi,

Great photo of the band, but I do have questions/observations regarding it

McClunie is recorded as being a Lance-Corporal in the Pipes of War (the medal roll only shows a rank of Private for him) so if this chap is McClunie should he not only have one chevron?

Secondly Donald Fergus Robertson is recorded as a Sergeant but would he have enlisted straight into that rank or would he have moved up the order of command as the band increased in number?

I tend to agree that it does look a bit like medal ribbons on the Corporals chest thereby indicating previous service which could be a pointer to Robertson who is thought to have served with the Black Watch.

My final thought is, would it not be strange for a photo to have been taken of the band without it’s leader?

I appreciate that the above is speculation, McClunie could have been a Corporal and then busted down a rank as has happened to a lot of men or Robertson could have not been available at the time of the photo. Whatever it is still a great photo.

Gordon

[wbremner]

Hi Gordon,

Great minds think alike. I arrived at some of the same conclusions initially, but then noticed a couple of less obvious details.

The chap with the two stripes appears again in a different photo, in the March 12th issue of the Sportsman's Gazette. He's the one on the far right, still with the two stripes. You'll note that the caption refers to "Piper Sgt. Ferguson", who we think could be the chap in the centre of the front row, seated (although that in itself not conclusive as it refers to another Sergeant, and the more I look at this photo, the more I see three stripes on the arm of the chap on the far left).

Also, the caption for the Feb 5th photo reads "REGIMENTAL BAND (A SECTION)", so I take this to mean they had various pipe band sections, which together formed the overall pipe band. Confusingly, I have another photo of the entire band that does not include the pipers. *Sigh*

Regarding the Cpl. rank and inconsistency with other records, I suppose these could have been temporary / acting assignments that were later withdrawn.

Clearly, more research needed. I'll keep updating this topic as I come across other findings.

Cheers,

William

[jimmy4174]

Hi Gordon, You are right in that without a properly named photo it's all just speculation and pure guess work mainly based on all the information supplied by William

Have you had a good look at the Gillies and Gamekeepers photo? Is that a L/Cpl on the left hand side standing and there's a Cpl. on the right? How many pipers are in the photo? I can see 5 but possibly more pipes hidden in back row?

Is the man in the centre of the back row the Pipe Major or is it the Sgt. in the front row?

Robertson was thought to have been in the 5th Volunteer Battalion Black Watch and I think given his age he would have been short of the qualifing service for a Volunteer Long Service medal so I think a 14/15 Trio is his full medal entitlement as shown on his WW1 index card.

So far we have not seen a photo with the 9 Pipers listed in pipes of war and I think I can only count 7 pipers in the Hornchurch photo? It would be Great to see a photo with the full band and 9 pipers

Cheers

Jimmy

[wbremner]

How many pipers are in the photo? I can see 5 but possibly more pipes hidden in back row?

Is the man in the centre of the back row the Pipe Major or is it the Sgt. in the front row?

Jimmy, I count 5 pipers in the G&G photo, possibly 6 if you include #5 from the right in the back row, but regardless note that the caption indicates the group is incomplete.

I can't tell whether the man next to him is the PM. Maybe, but there isn't enough detail to be sure.

[Ron Abbott]

Was Robertson a Sergeant or Lance-Sergeant?

I'm also wondering whether he ever wore the four upturned chevrons of a Pipe-Major although presumably there was no such official position for such appointment in that regiment (?)

Just out of interest and for comparison, does anyone know whether the 'Pipe-Major' of the 16th Middlesex wore his Sergeant's three chevrons or the inverted four of a Pipe Major?

Just a thought.

[jimmy4174]

Hi Ron, Robertson is shown as a Sgt. on his index card and medals

I'm not sure if either of the Pipe Majors you mention wore chevrons on the sleve or not?

Whats your thoughts on the piper in the centre of that photo being the Pipey?

Can you have a look at the photo of the band leaving Hornchurch to see if there is a front rank of four pipers with a second rank of three pipers

which might mean that the guy on the left just going out the photo would be the Pipe Major? I think he could be the Piper in the centre of the G&G photo?

Clutching at straws comes to mind LoL

Cheers

Jimmy

[Ron Abbott]

In the Hornchurch photo, I also count seven sets of drones. Four pipers in the front and three in the rear.

The photo is not reversed as the pipers have the instrument under the left arm (as normal), which means that in such circumstances it would be expected that the senior ranking piper (whether the P/M or P/SGT if the P/M is not on parade) would be the one on the far right of the front (which you also correctly describe as on the left just going out the photo as we look at it).

Unless......they counter-marched in which case the senior ranking piper would then be on the left LOL!

(but as there are troops in front of them I doubt that is the case)

Other than the bass drummer, I can't see any other drummers (side or tenors).

The drones definitely have ribbons on them rather than just cords, and again, it's not clear and definitely open to opinion but the longer I look at them (with and without my reading glasses!) I get the impression that the material is chequered and likely to have been tartan.

It would be perfectly normal for this to be the case, although some regiments (esp the Irish ones) have plain coloured material.

Of the 'Scottish' regiments, at the top of my head, I can only think of the RSDG (ex Royal Scots Greys) and Camerons having ribbons with tartan to the front and a plain colour to the rear, although the London Scottish use plain coloured ribbons both to the fore and the rear, albeit that they are different colours.

[wbremner]

In the Hornchurch photo, I also count seven sets of drones. Four pipers in the front and three in the rear.

The photo is not reversed as the pipers have the instrument under the left arm (as normal), which means that in such circumstances it would be expected that the senior ranking piper (whether the P/M or P/SGT if the P/M is not on parade) would be the one on the far right of the front (which you also correctly describe as on the left just going out the photo as we look at it).

Unless......they counter-marched in which case the senior ranking piper would then be on the left LOL!

(but as there are troops in front of them I doubt that is the case)

Other than the bass drummer, I can't see any other drummers (side or tenors).

The drones definitely have ribbons on them rather than just cords, and again, it's not clear and definitely open to opinion but the longer I look at them (with and without my reading glasses!) I get the impression that the material is chequered and likely to have been tartan.

It would be perfectly normal for this to be the case, although some regiments (esp the Irish ones) have plain coloured material.

Of the 'Scottish' regiments, at the top of my head, I can only think of the RSDG (ex Royal Scots Greys) and Camerons having ribbons with tartan to the front and a plain colour to the rear, although the London Scottish use plain coloured ribbons both to the fore and the rear, albeit that they are different colours.

I found another photo of the pipers in Hornchurch taken on the same day as the one in Foley's "Hard as Nails" book.

After a bit of experimenting, this is the best close-up of the pipers group.

The six highlighted in red are definitely pipers. The one highlighted in blue is the big bass drummer. And the one in yellow could be a piper, but I'm not 100% certain. I can't see his drones.The one in yellow is a piper as well, I can see the drones now as distinct from the piper in front of him.

You can also see another drummer in front, but it looks like he is carrying rather than playing his drum.

The ribbons are almost certainly tartan. I'll see if I can find out what they would have used back then (if they were using his tartan, that is).

William

Edited 6 February , 2015 by wbremner

[Ron Abbott]

The bass drummer normally stand directly behind the pipers with no other drummers in between him and the pipers, so I would imagine that the one in yellow is a piper as well.

Thanks for posting the photos!

[wbremner]

The bass drummer normally stand directly behind the pipers with no other drummers in between him and the pipers, so I would imagine that the one in yellow is a piper as well.

Thanks for posting the photos!

Yep, just edited my post to say that yellow is a piper!

[wbremner]

Seven pipers in total lines up very nicely with the first seven we have already identified. The picture was taken on June 26th, so #8, Mackenzie, would have been with the battalion about 1 month, in which case he was likely marching back in the ranks with the other soldiers.

1. SPTS/967 - Pte./Piper Alexander McLennan - enlisted late Sep*, 1914, attested Oct 20th, 1914
2. SPTS/1135 - L.Cpl./Piper Thomas M. McClunie - enlisted late Sep*, 1914
3. SPTS/1280 - Pte./Piper William Johnstone - enlisted / attested Dec 19th, 1914
4. SPTS/1339 - Sgt./Pipe-Major Donald Fergus Robertson - enlisted / attested late Dec*, 1914; Lord Kinnaird's gamekeeper(?)
5. SPTS/1344 - Pte./Piper W.A. Foreman - enlisted / attested early Jan*, 1915
6. SPTS/1345 - Pte./Piper William Farquharson - enlisted / attested Kirriemuir (Dundee) early Jan*, 1915
7. SPTS/1423 - Pte./Piper David Seath - enlisted /attested Dundee, Jan 9th, 1915
8. SPTS/1827 - Pte./Piper William Mackenzie - enlisted / attested mid-May*, 1915

(*=estimated)

[wbremner]

The bass drummer normally stand directly behind the pipers with no other drummers in between him and the pipers, so I would imagine that the one in yellow is a piper as well.

Thanks for posting the photos!

This is a better version of the detail shot, now showing the seven pipers (red) and the three drummers (blue). The two side/tenor drummers are up front with drums on their backs.

[jimmy4174]

Seven pipers in total lines up very nicely with the first seven we have already identified. The picture was taken on June 26th, so #8, Mackenzie, would have been with the battalion about 1 month, in which case he was likely marching back in the ranks with the other soldiers.

1. SPTS/967 - Pte./Piper Alexander McLennan - enlisted late Sep*, 1914, attested Oct 20th, 1914
2. SPTS/1135 - L.Cpl./Piper Thomas M. McClunie - enlisted late Sep*, 1914
3. SPTS/1280 - Pte./Piper William Johnstone - enlisted / attested Dec 19th, 1914
4. SPTS/1339 - Sgt./Pipe-Major Donald Fergus Robertson - enlisted / attested late Dec*, 1914; Lord Kinnaird's gamekeeper(?)
5. SPTS/1344 - Pte./Piper W.A. Foreman - enlisted / attested early Jan*, 1915
6. SPTS/1345 - Pte./Piper William Farquharson - enlisted / attested Kirriemuir (Dundee) early Jan*, 1915
7. SPTS/1423 - Pte./Piper David Seath - enlisted /attested Dundee, Jan 9th, 1915
8. SPTS/1827 - Pte./Piper William Mackenzie - enlisted / attested mid-May*, 1915

(*=estimated)

Hi William, I think that might well be right and well done for finding the latest photo's

Does the piper on the far lef tn the front rank have Corporals stripes up?

Cheers

Jimmy

Jimmy

[jimmy4174]

This is a better version of the detail shot, now showing the seven pipers (red) and the three drummers (blue). The two side/tenor drummers are up front with drums on their backs.

Well done on blowing up the photo William and I think that might be the full band at that time

If only we could find a named photo now?

Jimmy

[wbremner]

Here's another picture from the Sportsman's Gazette, featuring a piper on the far right. I believe he is one of the Pte./Pipers, probably the one on the far right of the photo in post #48. The chap on the far left is a Sgt, but I don't think he is holding pipes in his left hand, although he may be holding something. Plus he has a crown above his stripes, which I think indicates he is a Company Sergeant Major or Quarter-Master Sergeant (but someone please correct me if that is wrong). So probably not Robertson.

The caption reads: "The wedding at St. Luke's, Chelsea, of William Colin McLeod (1st Sportsman's Battalion, Royal Fusiliers), the only son of Capt. McLeod, or Orbost Skye, to Miss Georgina Elizabeth Catherine Fitzroy, Grand-daughter of Cluny MacPherson¹. Our photo shows the newly married couple and the Guard of Honour - Wednesday February 3rd, 1915."

Here's the link to the wedding certificate in Ancestry.

¹ Note - not the Cluny Macpherson who invented the gas-mask.

[Ron Abbott]

Grand-daughter of Colonel Ewan McPherson, 14th Clan Chief of McPherson to an Orbost McLeod.....bit of a Scottish society wedding that one !

[wbremner]

Grand-daughter of Colonel Ewan McPherson, 14th Clan Chief of McPherson to an Orbost McLeod.....bit of a Scottish society wedding that one !

And according to The Celtic Monthly in 1901, at the time he was "the present representative of that ancient family".

[Ron Abbott]

Going off at tangents here......but just surfing around the internet, it would appear that there was a friendship between the McLeods of Dunvegan (and Orbost) with Lord Kinnaird (as previously mentioned in this thread) which goes back well before WW1.

[wbremner]

I see that the Lord Kinnaird we're discussing was Arthur, 11th Lord Kinnaird. He had an interesting life, perhaps most notably in the sporting world. From Wikipedia:

"As a player, Kinnaird had a remarkable record. Having played in the second FA Cup final in 1873, he took part in a further eight – an unmatched total of nine finals in all. He was on the winning side three times with Wanderers and twice with the Old Etonians and celebrated his fifth Cup Final victory by standing on his head in front of the pavilion. In the course of his career as a Cup Final player, Kinnaird played in every position, from goalkeeper to forward. It was while playing in goal for Wanderers in the 1877 final that he suffered the indignity of scoring the first significant own goal in football history, accidentally stepping backwards over his own goal line after fielding an innocuous long shot from an Oxford University forward."

Hard to imagine, nowadays.

[Ron Abbott]

I see that the Lord Kinnaird we're discussing was Arthur, 11th Lord Kinnaird. He had an interesting life, perhaps most notably in the sporting world. From Wikipedia:

"As a player, Kinnaird had a remarkable record. Having played in the second FA Cup final in 1873, he took part in a further eight – an unmatched total of nine finals in all. He was on the winning side three times with Wanderers and twice with the Old Etonians and celebrated his fifth Cup Final victory by standing on his head in front of the pavilion. In the course of his career as a Cup Final player, Kinnaird played in every position, from goalkeeper to forward. It was while playing in goal for Wanderers in the 1877 final that he suffered the indignity of scoring the first significant own goal in football history, accidentally stepping backwards over his own goal line after fielding an innocuous long shot from an Oxford University forward."

Hard to imagine, nowadays.

Here's on that mentions Captain McLeod of Orbost and Lord Kinnaird :-

http://www.lordkinnaird.com/arthur-the-canoeist.html

[wbremner]

It's good to see the Drummer boy in the photo as well, I'm not sure about going overseas but I know of at least one Scottish

Regiment that had a Drummer boy with them in 1914 and wounded.

Do you think the drummer boy could be around 15 years old? If so, he might be the son of the chap referenced in this post, which would explain the inclusion of a drummer boy, especially one whose father was Scottish. The only problem with this theory is that he looks younger than 15.

[jimmy4174]

Here's another picture from the Sportsman's Gazette, featuring a piper on the far right. I believe he is one of the Pte./Pipers, probably the one on the far right of the photo in post #48. The chap on the far left is a Sgt, but I don't think he is holding pipes in his left hand, although he may be holding something. Plus he has a crown above his stripes, which I think indicates he is a Company Sergeant Major or Quarter-Master Sergeant (but someone please correct me if that is wrong). So probably not Robertson.

The caption reads: "The wedding at St. Luke's, Chelsea, of William Colin McLeod (1st Sportsman's Battalion, Royal Fusiliers), the only son of Capt. McLeod, or Orbost Skye, to Miss Georgina Elizabeth Catherine Fitzroy, Grand-daughter of Cluny MacPherson¹. Our photo shows the newly married couple and the Guard of Honour - Wednesday February 3rd, 1915."

Here's the link to the wedding certificate in Ancestry.

¹ Note - not the Cluny Macpherson who invented the gas-mask.

Hi William, Having looked at this wedding photo again, I wonder if the soldiers on both sides of the bridal party might in fact be all the regiments pipers, they seem to have pride of place in the photo and I don't think they are officers?

They might have had all the pipers out for the wedding?

Just a thought

Cheers

Jimmy

[wbremner]

Hi William, Having looked at this wedding photo again, I wonder if the soldiers on both sides of the bridal party might in fact be all the regiments pipers, they seem to have pride of place in the photo and I don't think they are officers?

They might have had all the pipers out for the wedding?

Just a thought

Cheers

Jimmy

Hi Jimmy,

I suppose it's possible, but the only piper I recognize is the chap on the right (and not just because he's holding the bagpipes)!

I've seen other "guard of honour at a military wedding" photos without pipers and they are, sadly, very similar to this one

Willliam

[jimmy4174]

It's been a wee while since anyone added to this post

Merry Christmas and Have a Happy and Prosperous New Year when it comes

Does anyone know if there is a Royal Fusiliers connection to Strathpeffer?

I have found a Piper Alexander McLennan who I think was the first Piper to Join the Sportsmens battalion and from the fact that he was discharged due to sickness in1918 aged 47 makes him born about 1871

He died in early January 1940 aged 68

I beleivethe Piper in the above photograph is him

Regards

Jimmy

[Ron Abbott]

I'm currently using a wee notebook computer and it's difficult to make out details; but is the piper wearing a MacKenzie tartan kilt/hose and a Seaforth's sporran?

Appears to be a nice set of pipes as well. Likely silver and ivory mounted. Chanter appears to have a silver sole as well.

Given that his death is recorded in 1940 at Killearnan, I wonder if he could be the same person recorded in the 1881 census as born at Killearnan c1871 and iiving at Wellhouse Cottage and in the 1891 census as being born c1871 at Killearnan and working as a railway porter at Strome Ferry?

Three persons of that name born in 1870/1871 and registered at nearby Knockbain, namely Alexander McLennan, DOB : -27th Mar 1871, son of John and Anne McLennan (nee Stewart).

Another was Alexander McLennan, DOB : 01 Jul 1871, son of Alexander and Catherine McLennan (nee McIver).

The third Alexander McLennan is recorded on familysearch as having been baptised on 27 Aug 1870 and he was the son of John and Jessie McLennan (nee Bain).