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Remembered Today:

Pipe Major D F Robertson 23rd Royal Fusiliers 1st Sportsman's Bt


jimmy4174

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Hi Jimmy, I have that book as well, but had forgotten about that particular picture, thanks for the reminder.

Thanks also for the other pipers. Interesting to note that 4067 is not J Adamson. There are a number of mistakes in Ward's book that I am correcting in my database, and that is one of them. SPTS/4067 was assigned to G.F. Constable (I have reviewed his attestation papers), and 4076 to L.L. Blackford (in case there was a typo). So Adamson is still a bit of a mystery, as is D Leath. I have found nothing on him either. I'm assuming they both transferred from another regiment later in the war, perhaps to replace the two who were killed.

I realize that this is getting a bit off topic, but although "Pipes of War" lists the deaths of MacKenzie and Suttie as 16/3/16, officially they are recorded as dying "of wounds" on 17/3/16. Based on a quick scan of the War Diaries, the Battalion was not engaged in a major action at the time, and there is a rather perplexing entry on the 16th:

23RF War Diary Extract 16-Mar-1916

"Pipes of War" indicates that the 23rd RF pipers were kept behind the lines, so the fact that both of them were wounded/killed on the same day is a bit odd. Not sure what to make of that.

Hi William, Thanks for the info on the other pipers, I've just nipped in for a quick reply. I received the book Hard As Nails about the battalion this morning but have not had the time to read it but after a quick flick through there is a photo with the pipers playing down the street,it's not a great photo but as soon as I can get time and work out how to post it I'll attach it.

Here's another one from Pipes of war for you 1135 T McClunie, 967 Alex McLennan,4076 John Adamson, 1827 William Mackenzie and the last one D. Leath I don't have anything for?

Cheers

Jimmy

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The bagpipe tune, 'Delville Wood' (after "the Battle of....') was composed by a Piper Thomas M McClunie, possibly the same as T McClunie 1135 (?)

As previously mentioned, the tune, 'The 23rd Royal Fusiliers Advance on Cambrai' was composed by Piper John Adamson.

There was a bagpipe maker called John Adamson however given that he had emigrated to the USA prior to WW1, I doubt that it's the same bloke.

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Thanks, Ron, well spotted. I think it's reasonable to assume they are the same people.

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Hi Jimmy, I have that book as well, but had forgotten about that particular picture, thanks for the reminder.

Thanks also for the other pipers. Interesting to note that 4067 is not J Adamson. There are a number of mistakes in Ward's book that I am correcting in my database, and that is one of them. SPTS/4067 was assigned to G.F. Constable (I have reviewed his attestation papers), and 4076 to L.L. Blackford (in case there was a typo). So Adamson is still a bit of a mystery, as is D Leath. I have found nothing on him either. I'm assuming they both transferred from another regiment later in the war, perhaps to replace the two who were killed.

I realize that this is getting a bit off topic, but although "Pipes of War" lists the deaths of MacKenzie and Suttie as 16/3/16, officially they are recorded as dying "of wounds" on 17/3/16. Based on a quick scan of the War Diaries, the Battalion was not engaged in a major action at the time, and there is a rather perplexing entry on the 16th:

"Pipes of War" indicates that the 23rd RF pipers were kept behind the lines, so the fact that both of them were wounded/killed on the same day is a bit odd. Not sure what to make of that.

Hi William,

I've made a typo with John Adamson his number is 4076 Sorry and it's interesting regarding the two men Pipes of War list as being killed, I'll have a look at that.

Cheers

Jimmy

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The bagpipe tune, 'Delville Wood' (after "the Battle of....') was composed by a Piper Thomas M McClunie, possibly the same as T McClunie 1135 (?)

As previously mentioned, the tune, 'The 23rd Royal Fusiliers Advance on Cambrai' was composed by Piper John Adamson.

There was a bagpipe maker called John Adamson however given that he had emigrated to the USA prior to WW1, I doubt that it's the same bloke.

Hi Ron, Thats good detective work finding these two compositions I had forgotten to look that up

Cheers

Jimmy

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The medal card specifically records T McClunie 1135 of the 23rd Royal Fusiliers as being called Thomas with service between November 2015 and February 1919. Someone has recorded him on ancestry.com as having been born in 1878 in Morton, Dumfries. There is also the name of a father, mother, wife and a son recorded on the same family tree. Needless-to-say, what is recorded on there is not always that accurate without confirmed source material.

David Seath, born 1885 (23rd Royal Fusiliers) is recorded in Pension Records as having been another gamekeeper and lived at Invergowrie. Married in 1911, his wife gave birth to children in 1912 and in 1914. He joined up in Dundee in 1915 but was medically discharged in March 1916. The handwriting is not easy to read but it looks like he had been accidentally shot in the foot whilst out ferreting in December 1910!

William F Suttie should be William Farquharson Suttie. The medals records are avilable for him. From near Dundee. Served November 1915 to March 1916. He appears to have died in 1949 aged 83....either that or someone else with the same name did.

Edited by Ron Abbott
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Thanks Ron, good stuff, although do I note per various records in Ancestry, including BWM/VM, SDGW, and MIC, that William Farquharson Suttie (SPTS/1345, from Kirriemuir) died of wounds March 17th 1916. So the one who died in 1949 must have been a different WFS... a son perhaps?. It seems a fairly common name for that area, as I also note that a William Suttie died in June 1915 and is buried in Kirriemuir cemetery. Yet another William Suttie was discharged from the Black Watch in April 1918, in Perth.

I'm still somewhat perplexed by the deaths of these two pipers, on the same day, both of wounds. No other recorded deaths of soldiers two days before or after. The 23rd RF war diaries are frustratingly terse about casualties (as opposed to the 24th, which lists wounded, dead, with names and service numbers), so the fact that they were listed at all is remarkable. Harry Owen (SPTS/1725, played for Southend United) was killed by a trench mortar attack on March 13th, has no mention in the war diaries.

The medal card specifically records T McClunie 1135 of the 23rd Royal Fusiliers as being called Thomas with service between November 2015 and February 1919. Someone has recorded him on ancestry.com as having been born in 1878 in Morton, Dumfries. There is also the name of a father, mother, wife and a son recorded on the same family tree. Needless-to-say, what is recorded on there is not always that accurate without confirmed source material.

David Seath, born 1885 (23rd Royal Fusiliers) is recorded in Pension Records as having been another gamekeeper and lived at Invergowrie. Married in 1911, his wife gave birth to children in 1912 and in 1914. He joined up in Dundee in 1915 but was medically discharged in March 1916. The handwriting is not easy to read but it looks like he had been accidentally shot in the foot whilst out ferreting in December 1910!

William F Suttie should be William Farquharson Suttie. The medals records are avilable for him. From near Dundee. Served November 1915 to March 1916. He appears to have died in 1949 aged 83....either that or someone else with the same name did.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Interesting photo of the Pipe Band at Hornchurch. It must show the original P/M and 5 or 6 Pipers. Did they switch to Scottish style dress at anytime?

I am researching 1280 William Johnstone. Given the date of the Newspaper article with the reference to looking for a P/M and 6 pipers was Johnstone the Btn's first piper with Jimmy's Robertson second?

Michael

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HI Michael,

I suspect that A. McLennan (SPTS/967, enlisted Oct 20th 1914) and T. McLunie (1135) were most likely to have been the first two pipers in the 23RF. William Johnstone (1280) enlisted December 17th, and was followed closely - numerically, that is - by Robertson (1339), Foreman (1344), Suttie (1345), and Seath (1423, enlisted Jan 9th, 1915). In fact there is an article from Dec 16th, 1916 in a Dundee newspaper which makes reference to the two pipers, along with the desire to add more:

141216   Evening Telegraph & Post (b) Dec 16 1914

Your chap was probably part of this second piping intake.

I don't know whether they switched to Scottish dress, but that would be interesting to find out. There is a Mackain postcard (At the Base, #4) which shows a kilted fellow selling Bingo cards. Mackain served with 23RF as well, but joined up in November 1915 and went over to France in 1916, perhaps in March-April. However, we are pretty sure that "At the Base" refers to Etaples, which was base for many, many battalions of different regiments in the lead up to the Somme, and so this could also be a soldier from any of the Scottish regiments.

Thanks,

WB

Interesting photo of the Pipe Band at Hornchurch. It must show the original P/M and 5 or 6 Pipers. Did they switch to Scottish style dress at anytime?

I am researching 1280 William Johnstone. Given the date of the Newspaper article with the reference to looking for a P/M and 6 pipers was Johnstone the Btn's first piper with Jimmy's Robertson second?

Michael

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  • 2 weeks later...

WB:

Thank you very much for the comments and the references. I will have to watch for WWI images of non-Highland pipe bands. If I come across any to the 23rd RF, will post them here.

Again, thank you.

Michael

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  • 3 weeks later...

I just came across another article (link to blog post) from January 2nd, 1915 which speaks of two more pipers being recently added to the battalion. I suspect these are Foreman (SPTS/1344) and Suttie (SPTS/1345).

And this post from December 28th, 1914, in the Dundee Evening Telegraph, which mentions that "One of Lord Kinnaird’s gamekeepers has joined the battalion to serve as piper and fighter". That could be a reference to Robertson - as Ron pointed out earlier, he was a gamekeeper as well as a piper.

Edited by wbremner
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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi,

With regards to Robertson the following may be of interest

The 1911 Census shows a Donald Robertson, Gamekeeper aged 34years born at Killin living at Tinkletop, Inchture along with his wife Annie and two daughters. It also records that he spoke Gaelic and English.

The Perthshire Advertiser in an article on the 29th of July 1914 mentions that a Mr D. Robertson of Tinkletop, Inchture played the pipes at Abernyte Church Sale of Work held on the 25th of July 1914

And the Dundee Courier on the 11th March 1915 records that a son was born to Mr & Mrs D. F. Robertson of Tinkletop, Inchture.

Gordon

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Hi,

With regards to Robertson the following may be of interest

The 1911 Census shows a Donald Robertson, Gamekeeper aged 34years born at Killin living at Tinkletop, Inchture along with his wife Annie and two daughters. It also records that he spoke Gaelic and English.

The Perthshire Advertiser in an article on the 29th of July 1914 mentions that a Mr D. Robertson of Tinkletop, Inchture played the pipes at Abernyte Church Sale of Work held on the 25th of July 1914

And the Dundee Courier on the 11th March 1915 records that a son was born to Mr & Mrs D. F. Robertson of Tinkletop, Inchture.

Gordon

Aha! Very interesting and well found, CL. According to the mighty Google, Tinkletop farm is just a couple of miles from Rossie Priory (perhaps less, as the gamekeeper walks) which is the home of Lord Kinnaire.

Thanks,

William

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I just came across another article (link to blog post) from January 2nd, 1915 which speaks of two more pipers being recently added to the battalion. I suspect these are Foreman (SPTS/1344) and Suttie (SPTS/1345).

And this post from December 28th, 1914, in the Dundee Evening Telegraph, which mentions that "One of Lord Kinnaird’s gamekeepers has joined the battalion to serve as piper and fighter". That could be a reference to Robertson - as Ron pointed out earlier, he was a gamekeeper as well as a piper.

Hi William, That's another nice bit detective work and it looks like that will be Donald, wish we could find a better photograph of him

Cheers

Jimmy

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Hi,

With regards to Robertson the following may be of interest

The 1911 Census shows a Donald Robertson, Gamekeeper aged 34years born at Killin living at Tinkletop, Inchture along with his wife Annie and two daughters. It also records that he spoke Gaelic and English.

The Perthshire Advertiser in an article on the 29th of July 1914 mentions that a Mr D. Robertson of Tinkletop, Inchture played the pipes at Abernyte Church Sale of Work held on the 25th of July 1914

And the Dundee Courier on the 11th March 1915 records that a son was born to Mr & Mrs D. F. Robertson of Tinkletop, Inchture.

Gordon

Hi Gordon, That information ties up perfectly with with Williams earlier post and looks like Donald wasone of Lord Kinnairds Gamekeepers prior to joining the Sportsmens Pipeband have you come accross any photos of local men who were pipers prior to the First War?

Cheers

Jimmy

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From Williams earlier post;

I suspect that A. McLennan (SPTS/967, enlisted Oct 20th 1914) and T. McLunie (1135) were most likely to have been the first two pipers in the 23RF. William Johnstone (1280) enlisted December 17th, and was followed closely - numerically, that is - by Robertson (1339), Foreman (1344), Suttie (1345), and Seath (1423, enlisted Jan 9th, 1915). In fact there is an article from Dec 16th, 1916 in a Dundee newspaper which makes reference to the two pipers, along with the desire to add more:

It looks like 967 / 492755 Pte.Alexander McLennan was the first piper to join the battalion and he was aged 43 years when he joined up

Cheers

Jimmy

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Hi,

Sorry no photos of Robertson but I do have a couple of Gamekeepers from the Inchture/Longforgan area who joined the 23rd at about the same time as Seath and Robertson. Will start a new thread with them in Soldiers.

Gordon

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Hi,

Sorry no photos of Robertson but I do have a couple of Gamekeepers from the Inchture/Longforgan area who joined the 23rd at about the same time as Seath and Robertson. Will start a new thread with them in Soldiers.

Gordon

Gordon,

If you don't mind, please add a link from this thread to the new one you create, to make it easier to track the discussions.

Thanks,

WB

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Issue No. 4 of "The Sportsman's Gazette", published January 15th, 1915, makes an interesting observation regarding the piping band in the 23rd RF:

The Scotch pipers have approached us on what is to them a very important matter. There are eight of them, and they are extremely anxious to wear the kilts (Lord Maitland’s clan). Not a bad idea!

Given that Mackenzie did not enlist until sometime in May of 1915, it seems that there could have been another piper in the battalion by January 1915 who, for whatever reason, did not make it out to France and play with the band. These are the first eight (chronologically) as identified in "The Pipes of War":

  1. SPTS/967 - Pte./Piper Alexander McLennan - enlisted late Sep*, 1914, attested Oct 20th, 1914
  2. SPTS/1135 - L.Cpl./Piper Thomas M. McClunie - enlisted late Sep*, 1914
  3. SPTS/1280 - Pte./Piper William Johnstone - enlisted / attested Dec 19th, 1914
  4. SPTS/1339 - Sgt./Pipe-Major Donald Fergus Robertson - enlisted / attested late Dec*, 1914; Lord Kinnaird's gamekeeper(?)
  5. SPTS/1344 - Pte./Piper W.A. Foreman - enlisted / attested early Jan*, 1915
  6. SPTS/1345 - Pte./Piper William Farquharson - enlisted / attested Kirriemuir (Dundee) early Jan*, 1915
  7. SPTS/1423 - Pte./Piper David Seath - enlisted /attested Dundee, Jan 9th, 1915
  8. SPTS/1827 - Pte./Piper William Mackenzie - enlisted / attested mid-May*, 1915

(*=estimated)

We also know that on December 12th, 1914, the Glasgow Herald reported that "In addition to men for the ranks Captain Westhead is endeavouring to obtain a pipe-major and six pipers". With McLennan and McClunie already in place, I take that to mean they wanted 8 pipers plus a pipe-major, making nine in all, rather than seven.

John Adamson (SPTS/4076) joined the 23rd RF around July of 1915 and also went out to France with the above pipers in November 1915. With the deaths of Mackenzie and Suttie in March 1916, Adamson presumably would have replaced one, and the mysterious "D. Leath" the other. I have done a preliminary search on both "D. Leath" and "D. Leith" in Ancestry and so far not found anyone who fits the profile.
Regarding the Maitland tartan, this is what it looks like, based on the Scottish Registry of Tartans:
tartan_test256_web_small.jpg
I like to think it's not that dissimilar from the tartan worn by Mackain's piper in this postcard:
LT_AB04-Ga-600.jpg
So perhaps they did end up wearing the Maitland tartan ... ? Probably just wishful thinking on my part :)
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But exactly which tartan is being referred to? According to the tartans 'registry/authority' websites, the Maitland Chief's tartan wasn't designed until 1953:-

https://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tartanDetails.aspx?ref=2790

http://www.tartansauthority.com/tartan-ferret/display/714/maitland-clan

From the limited time, I've looked at this. it would appear that the Chief of the (lowland) Maitland clan, may have worn the Lauder tartan prior to his own tartan being designed, as he was the Chief of Lauderdale.

Maitland tartan appears to be derived from the Lauder tartan.....a few stripes having been added etc.

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But exactly which tartan is being referred to? According to the tartans 'registry/authority' websites, the Maitland Chief's tartan wasn't designed until 1953:-

https://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tartanDetails.aspx?ref=2790

http://www.tartansauthority.com/tartan-ferret/display/714/maitland-clan

From the limited time, I've looked at this. it would appear that the Chief of the (lowland) Maitland clan, may have worn the Lauder tartan prior to his own tartan being designed, as he was the Chief of Lauderdale.

Maitland tartan appears to be derived from the Lauder tartan.....a few stripes having been added etc.

Excellent point, Ron, I missed that one.

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Even if the pipers did not wear kilts, the bagpipe covers may have been made of tartan.

From the photo on the previous page it looks as though they were also using ribbons (with or without cords) on the drones, which may well have been of tartan.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi William, That's another nice bit detective work and it looks like that will be Donald, wish we could find a better photograph of him

Cheers

Jimmy

Hi Jimmy,

Here's a picture of 4 pipers + 2 drummers from the February 5th issue of the Sportsman's Gazette. The caption reads "REGIMENTAL BAND (A SECTION)". Unfortunately the pipers are not named but I suspect that the chap on the left with the stripes is our friend T. M. McClunie, my reasoning being that D F Robertson was a Sgt (3 stripes) and the remainder of the band were privates. But I could very well be wrong here, and I will continue to research this to see if we can get a confirmed photo of your chap.

REGIMENTAL BAND (A SECTION)

The inclusion of a "drummer boy" in the band is quite interesting. Based on some (admittedly pretty slim) research I understood that the practice of recruiting a drummer boy had died out by the 20th century, and certainly by WW1, so wondering if this might be a local lad who was more of a mascot - or there to help with recruiting? - while the battalion was training in England, but who would not have gone to Front with the soldiers. Does anyone know either way?
Cheers,
William
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Hi William, Thanks for posting this latest Brilliant photo and I agree with what you say as Robertson would have had three stripes.

It's good to see the Drummer boy in the photo as well, I'm not sure about going overseas but I know of at least one Scottish

Regiment that had a Drummer boy with them in 1914 and wounded.

It look like the Corporal Piper might be wearing medal ribbons does it not?

Cheers

Jimmy

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Hi William, Thanks for posting this latest Brilliant photo and I agree with what you say as Robertson would have had three stripes.

It's good to see the Drummer boy in the photo as well, I'm not sure about going overseas but I know of at least one Scottish

Regiment that had a Drummer boy with them in 1914 and wounded.

It look like the Corporal Piper might be wearing medal ribbons does it not?

Cheers

Jimmy

Hi Jimmy,

I can't quite tell if it is a medal ribbon or just the way the picture looks. Unfortunately this is the best scan I was able to get of a rather poor original. I zoomed it to get a closer look and I still couldn't make it out.

William

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