Chris Noble Posted 8 November , 2004 Share Posted 8 November , 2004 What can you say? I find this very sad indeed. Another important site on the Western Front to be lost. I'll post this image of the Redoubt, impressive and strong, like the lads who attacked it, never turned back, and made the ultimate sacrifice. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 8 November , 2004 Share Posted 8 November , 2004 I would be particularly sad to see the Hohenzollern redoubt disappear. My grandfather had the dubious pleasure of spending Christmas Day 1915 there. Here is a short article he wrote a few years later. Charles (Chris, please feel free to put this on the main site if you think it suitable.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christmas 1915 By Major Charles H Fair DSO, 1/19th London Regiment, 47 Division (first published in Memories, the Journal of the OCA 19th London Regt. Dec. 1920 pp. 62-63) On December 22nd, 1915, I rejoined the 19th Battalion, after a week in hospital with a poisoned arm. They were in Sailly-Labourse district and appeared to be leading an uneventful life. The next day, however, came news that something was on foot. It was proposed to explode a mine at the Hohenzollern Redoubt (a place of evil and blood-stained memory) in front of the line occupied by the London Irish. The 19th were moved up to Lancashire trench, just outside Vermelles, during the night of the 23/24 December, in pouring rain, in case they might be required. As it happened our services were not wanted and we spent Christmas Eve in these chilly trenches. The next morning one heard familiar Christmas hymns and greetings along the trench, in spite of the cold and wet. There were fairly good wooden dug-outs, more like narrow sheds than anything else. Our good friends in London had sent out parcels and presents for every man, and things would not have been too bad but for the impending journey to the “Hohenzollern”. After dinner (bully beef and a slice of cake, I remember) I set off with A/C.S.M. Simpson (1) to reconnoitre the front line held by a Company of the London Irish. They were commanded by Capt. Peter McGinn (2), who fell afterwards at High Wood, a very gallant officer, worshipped by his men, and a very loyal friend to our battalion. Never shall we forget the ensuing twelve hours. Thick mud everywhere and mud so tenacious that even a tall man had difficulty in making his way. We reached the front line just before dark and found the most dismal spot I have ever seen in France. Mine craters everywhere, snipers very active, in and in front of our line many British dead, who had lain there since the bitter fighting of mid-October, and over all the sickly smell of mingled mud and human remains. At least six times that evening I saved myself from falling headlong by clutching what proved to be a dead man’s foot projecting from the side of the trench. The rest of the Company were due early in the evening, but hour after hour we waited in an apology for a dugout in just a hole underground into which we slid and then sat upon the mud round a small table lighted by one flickering candle. Eventually the company began to arrive by degrees under Lieut. Tipton. (3) The mud in “Bart’s Alley” the communication trench, had proved too much for human strength. Many had ‘lost’ their rations, some their packs, but all had clung to their London sausages, and verily these kept us all alive for the next forty-eight hours. Some men had even come right out of their boots in the effort to extricate themselves. The relief was eventually declared ‘complete’; but in Bart’s Alley there remained five or six of our men stuck till they were dug out in daylight, with some of the 18th facing them in a similar plight in the same trench! Such was our Christmas in 1915, but do not think our spirits were as damp as our bodies. There was much that was really humorous and the Londoner’s natural spirits pulled him through. In particular do I remember standing round a. brazier with Pte. Wells (4), Sgt. Few (5) and Cpl. Davis (6) at about 2 am on the 27th while the last named kept us all in roars of laughter while, in his own inimitable way, he recounted the comic side of a St. Alban’s field-day. Poor gallant Davis! He met his end that same week through impatiently clambering out of a long communication trench, when a sniper’s bullet did the rest. His Company Commander and his comrades do not forget. That rare humour and splendid loyalty were a very present help in trouble. ------------- Notes (1) 668 A/CSM (later CQMS) Ernest Simpson joined the 19th Londons in Feb 1909. He was one of the original contingent of the 1/19th which arrived in France on 10 March 1915 and was still serving on the Western Front with the battalion at the Armistice. He was awarded the MSM (gazetted 18 Jan 1919). (2) Captain Philip Albert Charles Maginn MC, 18th Battalion the London Regiment (London Irish Rifles), killed in action at High Wood, 15 Sept 1916, buried at Flatiron Copse Cemetery (1.H.37). (3) 2/Lt (later Captain) H.T. Tipton was commissioned into the 19th Londons on 7 July 1915. He joined the 1/19th in France on 4 Nov 1915. (4) Probably 4353 A/L/Cpl Arthur Wells who enlisted in the 19th Londons on or about 8 May 1915. He arrived in France to join the 1/19th on 10 Oct 1915 and served until 4 Oct 1916 when he was either sick, injured or lightly wounded. He served in France with the battalion from 20 Dec 1916 until 16 March 1918. (5) 2201 A/Sgt Benjamin Arthur Few joined the 19th Londons on 7 Aug 1914 and was another of the original contingent of the 1/19th, serving with the battalion until 7 July 1916. (6) 2512 Cpl Percy James Davies joined the 19th Londons on 4 Sept 1914 and was another of the original contingent of the 1/19th. He was killed by a sniper at the Hohenzollern Redoubt on 31 Dec 1915 and is commemorated on the Loos Memorial to the Missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 8 November , 2004 Share Posted 8 November , 2004 Chris thanks for sharing the picture. I hate to sound ignorant, but I assume this picture is taken from the inside of the redoubt. Thanks Charles for the article. I always love the first hand accounts. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewThornton Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 Good to see that some momentum is building up about trying to show the people of Auchy that this site is important and should be preserved. I wonder what the view in Scotland would be? After all, 9th (Scottish) Division suffered greatly capturing the Redoubt as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 The "story" has reached page 27 of the Daily Mail this morning. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewThornton Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 The Leicester Mercury have again made this issue a headline story: FRENCH TO FACE MASSIVE PROTESTS BY CHRISSY HARRIS 10:30 - 09 November 2004 French officials were today facing a barrage of protest over work to turn part of a World War One battlefield into a rubbish dump. Leicestershire Euro MPs vowed to take the matter up with their counterparts in Brussels, while county MPs were planning to lobby ministers and the French ambassador. Yesterday, the Mercury revealed how a field in northern France, where hundreds of Leicestershire soldiers lost their lives during the Battle of Loos in 1915, was being turned into a rubbish tip. The work is being carried out by a landowner after he apparently received permission from the local mayor in the nearby village of Auchy les Mines. Today, we publish a letter in French which readers can sign and cut out protesting at the work, which campaigners have described as desecration. There was a chorus of condemnation from politicians. Blaby MP Andrew Robathan, a former major in the Coldstream Guards - which fought in the Battle of Loos - said: "As a former member of a regiment which served there, I feel angered by this disgraceful news. Some people have absolutely no sense of history. "If people forget so quickly why people gave their lives for their country, there really is something terribly wrong." Leicester East MP Keith Vaz said he was appalled. He said: "For it to come to light in this week, of all weeks, when we should be honouring these people, is appalling. "I will be asking for an urgent meeting with the French ambassador in London to see what can be done." Mr Vaz said he would raise the issue in Parliament and ask Foreign Secretary Jack Straw what he can do. Leicester West MP Patricia Hewitt, Loughborough MP Andy Reed and Harborough MP Edward Garnier have voiced their concerns, along with Bosworth MP David Tredinnick. He said: "The Government should have been on top of this. There should be a mechanism to stop this kind of activity. "I will take this issue up with Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon." Leicestershire MEP Chris Heaton-Harris said he would take the issue to the European Parliament in Brussels. He said: "I will write to all the French MEPs to ask them to raise this with the appropriate authorities." Up to 60,000 British soldiers died in the Battle of Loos, including more than 500 from the Royal Leicestershire Regiment, nicknamed the Tigers. Tigers' veteran Reginald Twigg, 91, from east Leicester, fought in the Second World War. He said: "It's bloody disgusting. This place should be left as it is. People have got to know about this and help do something about it." Tigers regimental historian Richard Lane has been writing to other regiments who fought in the battle to get them behind the campaign. He said: "The more people we can get behind this the better." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy 1 Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 just looked on the lincolnshire echo website,it says much the same as the liecester mercury site. but i do notice a distinct absence of any comments by lincolnshire mp's on this matter. i have just e-mailed my local mp about this matter,can any of you pals out there do the same. you never know if we can get enough mp's on our side and asking questions,maybe our government can get this disgraceful business stopped. andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aramsay Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 I'd be interested to know what remains of the Redoubt, as if there is nothing or little left, I don't see what the fuss is about. I think the emotive thing is being stirred up by the thought that a "dump" is somehow disrespectful to those who may still lie in the earth, whereas if the land was purely farming use I very much doubt there would be the same outcry. I agree surviving significant vestiges of the war should be preserved, but where nothing exists, I think it should be up to the locals to decide what to do with their own land. Slainte, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewThornton Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 Alan I think the "fuss" has been generated because of how the site is being used. You are right about the people who live in Auchy having every right to determine how they use their land, as they do live there after all. You are again right in saying that not very much remains of the Redoubt itself. I think the vast majority of people, including those who have responded to this posting, are wise enough to know that you cannot preserve everything Great War related and that ultimately the demands of the living inhabitants of these towns must take precedence. However, you will notice in the press coverage in the Leicester Mercury that there are inhabitants of Auchy who oppose this scheme and are aware of the significance of the area. You may think that perhaps it is a lot of fuss to make over nothing, but a large number of Seaforths and Camerons (noticing your Queen's Own Highlanders avatar) also died attacking and defending the Redoubt with 9th (Scottish) Division and perhaps their decendants may see things differentlyif they were made aware of what is planned for the site. I think people have been stirred into action by the insensitive usage that is going to made of the area, and the potential damage of the remains of soldiers who still lie in and around the Hohenzollern Redoubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 i have just e-mailed my local mp about this matter,can any of you pals out there do the same. you never know if we can get enough mp's on our side and asking questions,maybe our government can get this disgraceful business stopped. I think the involvement of the British government in this matter may well be counter-productive. Imagine the response if we in the UK were being verbally bombarded by a foreign government, telling us what we should be doing with our land. I suggest that a more softly softly approach would produce much better results. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Robins Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 I think the "fuss" is about the sacrifices that occurred in a relatively small area surrounding the redoubt, the numerous units that fought in this location and the significance of the position to the Germans. Let us not forget this wasn't a quiet sector after the 1915 battle and remained an area of high activity with mining, trench raids,counterattacks etc being very much the norm. There is still sufficient evidence of the strength of the redoubt , mine craters and the commanding position afforded to the occupiers overlooking the British lines. On a clear day there are views across to St Marys ADS, Bois Carre and Quarry cemeteries, 9th Division positions, lone tree and a whole host of important locations during the battle. A rubbish dump is simply a disgraceful use of such a well known and historic location. Let's hope the campaign gathers momentum before socalled "development" destroys it completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy 1 Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 i have just e-mailed my local mp about this matter,can any of you pals out there do the same. you never know if we can get enough mp's on our side and asking questions,maybe our government can get this disgraceful business stopped. I think the involvement of the British government in this matter may well be counter-productive. Imagine the response if we in the UK were being verbally bombarded by a foreign government, telling us what we should be doing with our land. I suggest that a more softly softly approach would produce much better results. Andy no disrespect max,but what do you mean by a softly softly approach. andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewThornton Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 Further to Jason's posting regarding the fierce fighting that took place, here are the names of the seven men who were awarded the Victoria Cross for their actions in and around the Hohenzollern Redoubt: BROOKS, Oliver - 3rd Battalion, Coldstream Guards 8th October 1915 COTTER, William Reginald - 6th Battalion, The East Kent Regiment (The Buffs) 6th March 1916 DAWSON, James Lennox - 187th Special Company, Royal Engineers 13th October 1915 FLEMING-SANDES, Arthur James Terence - 2nd Battalion, The East Surrey Regiment 29th September 1915 HARVEY, Samuel - 1st Battalion, The York and Lancaster Regiment 29th September 1915 POLLOCK, James Dalgleish - 5th Battalion, The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders 27th September 1915 VICKERS, Charles Geoffrey - 1/7th (Robin Hood Rifles) Battalion, The Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment 13th October 1915 I think this is at least one indication of why some people feel that the area, however little remains, should be preserved from such a fate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 no disrespect max,but what do you mean by a softly softly approach. I think that a frontal attack on this situation is bound to fail, as it did in 1915. I think that forging links with the local population who are opposed to the development would be much more productive. It may be that the Mayor and the landowner have acted in a perfectly legal way, if this is the case then no amount of pressure from this country will change anything. The only way for things to change would be if the mayor felt that his position was at risk or the landowner was given a different source of income to replace that gained from the redoubt site. As I have said in a previous post there is not a great deal of the original redoubt left and it seems to me that the site has been used as a dump for many years. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 As a slight aside, wasn't the Queen Mothers brother killed on the Redoubt or just beyond near Fosse trench? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewThornton Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 Yes Andy he was. Captain The Honourable Fergus Bowes-Lyon was killed whilst serving with the 8th Battalion, The Black Watch on 27th September 1915. He has no known grave and is commemorated on the Loos Memorial to the Missing. Sadly the site of the Redoubt has been used for fly-tipping in previous years, but that does not mean that the situation has to remain so. I agree with you totally that the best way of making someone reconsider a decision is to get them on-side rather than brow-beat them into submission. Perhaps if the Mairie becomes aware of the feeling that this development has aroused, which reflects the increased interest in the Great War in general in some ways, he may be able to persuade the landowner to reconsider his plans. I hope so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy 1 Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 I think that a frontal attack on this situation is bound to fail, as it did in 1915. I think that forging links with the local population who are opposed to the development would be much more productive. It may be that the Mayor and the landowner have acted in a perfectly legal way, if this is the case then no amount of pressure from this country will change anything. The only way for things to change would be if the mayor felt that his position was at risk or the landowner was given a different source of income to replace that gained from the redoubt site. andy i thought max that if our government where to have a word with the french government,then maybe someone in the french government could have a word with the mayor and the permission could be rescinded. maybe i'm being nieve or doesn't it work like that. andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 Hello Andy I don't think that you are being naive at all. Your approach may well work in a number of areas in the world, but I don't think that northern France is one of them. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy 1 Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 i bow to your knowledge of the french max never having been over there.i only know of them through watching the tv and reading newspapers. its just that it makes me so angry what is being done to the remains of those brave men lying under the soil over there, i want to shout my displeasure from the rooftops and let everybody know so that it can be stopped. andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewThornton Posted 10 November , 2004 Share Posted 10 November , 2004 Interest in the possible fate of the remains of the Hohenzollern Redoubt is gathering pace. The Leicester Mercury has again published more reaction. The Burton Mail made the issue a front page story last night and more is to follow today, and the Evening Sentinel, covering North Staffordshire and the Potteries, is also giving the story front-page coverage. The Express and Star will also be covering the story tomorrow. In addition to this, Keith Vaz MP has tabled an Early Day Motion regarding the matter in the House of Commons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy 1 Posted 10 November , 2004 Share Posted 10 November , 2004 just had a look on the parliament website mp keith vaz as indeed signed an early day motion and so have 11 other mp's. sorry i dont know how to do a link but try this http://edm.ais.co.uk/weblink/html/motion.html/ref=1887 regards andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Noble Posted 10 November , 2004 Share Posted 10 November , 2004 According to W.F.A. Bulletin. Representations have been made to the Mayor of Loos, and support given to local history societies. Does anybody know who these societies are? Regards Chris. Andy, the picture was the interior of the Redoubt, taken later in the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Lewis Posted 12 November , 2004 Share Posted 12 November , 2004 Andrew Excellent article,well done for highlighting the Hohenzollern Redoubt threat. See here http://www.expressandstar.com/articles/fea...ticle_67170.php Regards Doug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Noble Posted 12 November , 2004 Share Posted 12 November , 2004 Well done Andrew. I can only repeat Doug's sentiments. Regards, Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellsms Posted 12 November , 2004 Share Posted 12 November , 2004 An item on Midlands Today this evening as well. Local MEP said he would speak to french friends/colleagues cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now