Paul Reed Posted 1 December , 2004 Share Posted 1 December , 2004 I was here last week and spoke to some of the locals who told me the landowner claims he did not know the significance of the fields he owned. Below is a photo of the ground he has been working on; I would place this in the area of what was later known as Cross Trench and not in the Hohenzollern Redoubt - as such - at all. There were once craters to the left of this area; but they did not exist in the 1980s, and probably not in the 60s according to a friend I was visiting the battlefield with who has visited the area since that time. The locals also tell me the ground will be planted with trees when this current work is finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 2 December , 2004 Share Posted 2 December , 2004 The locals also tell me the ground will be planted with trees when this current work is finished. Only an assumption on my part, but if they are going to plant trees on the site that would seem to indicate the land is no longer capable of supporting agriculture. Would this be the time for an organization to step in and purchase the land for preservation? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Looser Posted 2 December , 2004 Share Posted 2 December , 2004 If the present-day track, as shown in Paul Reed's excellent photo, is in the same place as the track shown on trench maps, it could well be that the area M.Bernus has been working on is in the region of Cross Trench, but surely, the question is "Where was he going to work next?" There are three or four surprisingly large mine craters hidden away in the wooded area and, to someone selling landfill capacity, these voluminous ready-made holes would save him an awful lot of excavation. Without the benefit of a modern survey comparing the present terrain with the trench maps and, again, making the same assumption regarding the location of the track, I have little doubt that these craters are on the site of the Redoubt and I, for one, would hate to see them erased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Brown Posted 2 December , 2004 Share Posted 2 December , 2004 There was nothing remaining at surface level of the Redoubt. It's archaeology may well have been there, but there was no visible trace of it. If I may pick up on Paul's mentio of archaeology I think I can see part of the problem. Unlike colleagues in West Flanders the French authorities have, by and large, not yet come to terms with the battlefields as archaeological sites. If, as in Flanders, an inventory of sites was held by the Departement or Conseil General archaeologists that showed maps (modern and trench), air photos and results of any previous work then proposals could be screened against this resource and appropriate mitigation could follow. Of course there then needs to be mechanism to pay for any archaeological works. While in UK that would be on the "polluter pays" principle but that wouldn't work here I suspect because of the scale of the remains. However such an exercise in creation of inventories could lead to the identification of key sites that deserve better preservation. If you haven't already seen it have a look at the West Flanders archaeology website at www.a-w-a.be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Brown Posted 2 December , 2004 Share Posted 2 December , 2004 Further to my last post I might also add that the Hohenzollern Redoubt and other features will still survive until they are completely destroyed, that is the nature of archaeology. The infilled trenches, human remains, materiel and the personal effects of the soldiers will all survive. As we (No Mans Land) found at Serre even an allegedly "pulverised battlefield" was able to yield significant information about the nature of both trench organisation and fighting, as well as yield three well-preserved bodies from whom much information was gleaned. Its actually only like dealing with any other archaeological site that no longer has remains visible as ruins or earthworks. Lack of visible traces doesn't mean total absence, it just means one has to carry out adequate reconnaisance and prospection before digging, which brings me back to the necessity of an adequate inventory of collated sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 2 December , 2004 Share Posted 2 December , 2004 There are three or four surprisingly large mine craters hidden away in the wooded area and, to someone selling landfill capacity, these voluminous ready-made holes would save him an awful lot of excavation. Without the benefit of a modern survey comparing the present terrain with the trench maps and, again, making the same assumption regarding the location of the track, I have little doubt that these craters are on the site of the Redoubt and I, for one, would hate to see them erased. This ground is not owned by the same person and is used for hunting; the craters do have some rubbish in when they were used for dumping up until the 90s, but the ground around them was extensively cleared at this time and banks built from the top soil around the site to enclose it. As hunting is big business in France, these are not in any danger in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 2 December , 2004 Share Posted 2 December , 2004 Martin makes some good points, but the problem with this site is that the damage caused to it was done by the war, but by humans since. The site today is very, very different from when I first saw it in the early 1980s and much has been bulldozed, filled in and mucked around with. I suspect in that process much was lost. However, Martin rightly states that some material will be there, and I suspect much of the mining galleries will be intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 2 December , 2004 Share Posted 2 December , 2004 Would this be the time for an organization to step in and purchase the land for preservation? If you are thinking of the WFA then I suspect you won't get much joy; ownership of a small corner of the Somme has caused them a great deal of trouble and I doubt if they would want more land on their hands? Personally, I would like to see the locals based around the Loos Museum form an joint UK-French association and see if the government (local or national) or owner would give them this land and maybe even push for the remaining craters to be given as well? We should always be looking to work with the French on things like this rather than take it out of their hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 2 December , 2004 Share Posted 2 December , 2004 Martin I would agree. However I think what would be missed if the land is allowed to become a copse, or go unescavated is the visual impact visitors would have if the site did not appear as it did durning the war. Being at an historical site and seeing the area as close as possible to the way it was I think is an invaluable experience. I don't think you would disagree, my thought is that someone needs to get a hold of a reasonable tract of land, including the redoubt, when it becomes availabe so that even if funds aren't available today to escavate the site it might be done some time in the future. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Early Walker Posted 11 December , 2004 Share Posted 11 December , 2004 This is a view of Tower Bridge, Loos battlefield, taken from a slide purchased from IWM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pte1643 Posted 19 December , 2004 Share Posted 19 December , 2004 Further to Andrew Thornton's post dated 9th Nov 04: May I just complete the impressive list of VC winners, involved in the Battle of Loos. In addition to the Seven listed by Andrew, these names must be considered also. Laidlaw Daniel Logan 7th KOSB 25th Sept 1915 Peachment George Stanley 2nd KRRC 25th Sept 1915 Cpt Read Anketell Mountray 1st Northamptons 25th Sept 1915 Vickers Arthur 2nd Royal Warwicks 25th Sept 1915 Sgt Wells Harry 2nd Royal Sussex 25th Sept 1915 Kenny Henry Edward 1st Loyal North Lancs 25th sept 1915 2/Lt Johnson Frederick Henry 73rd Field Coy RE 25th Sept 1915 Maj Douglas-Hamilton Angus 6th Cameron Highlanders 25th/26th Sept 1915 Dunsire Robert 13th Royal Scots 26th sept 1915 Sgt Saunders Arthur Frederick 9th Suffolks 26th sept 1915 2/Lt Turner Alexander Buller 1st Royal Berkshires 28th Sept 1915 Sgt Raynes John Crawshaw 71st RFA 11th Oct 1915 Thapa Kulbir 2/3rd Gurkha Rifles 25th Sept 1915 Lt Malling George Allan 12th Rifle Bgde (RAMC) 25th Sept 1915 Cpt Kilby Arthur Forbes 2nd South Staffs 25th Sept 1915 Cpl Burt Alfred Alexander 1/1st Herts 27th Sept 1915 Whilst I appreciate these men were not in the immediate area of the Redoubt, they did however contribute to the overall battle that encompassed Loos 1915. As has been stated there were around 60,000 British casualties from the Loos campaign, my Gt Grandfather being one. I'm relativley new to this, and as such have only just started to piece together his involvement. What a shame it would be if the area was lost to future generations who, like myself haven't had the chance to visit yet. BTW if anyone knows of the 7th East Surreys involvement at Loos, I would greatly appreciate the help. Best Regards and Merry Xmas to All. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brindlerp Posted 27 December , 2004 Share Posted 27 December , 2004 BTW if anyone knows of the 7th East Surreys involvement at Loos, I would greatly appreciate the help. Mark, From pages 132 and 133, Loos - Hohenzollern, by Andrew Rawson. Regards Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pte1643 Posted 28 December , 2004 Share Posted 28 December , 2004 Richard Scan shown above is nice touch. Thanks very much. Best Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Feledziak Posted 25 September , 2016 Share Posted 25 September , 2016 I have unearthed this thread looking for Arthur KILBY killed this day 101 years ago. Arthur died at the nearby railway redoubt still Auchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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