sunflower Posted 13 November , 2004 Share Posted 13 November , 2004 There is an article on this issue in today's (Sat 13 Nov) Daily Mirror. (page 15) sunflower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy 1 Posted 15 November , 2004 Share Posted 15 November , 2004 good news pals. according to the lincolnshire echo website the farmer as given is word that no more rubbish will be dumped on this site. see the thisislincolnshire website for more info. http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/displa...tentPK=11314019 cheers andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewThornton Posted 15 November , 2004 Share Posted 15 November , 2004 That is brilliant news! I am glad that Monsieur Bernus seems to have agreed to recognise the signifcance of the area. What needs to be done now is to work together with Monsieur Bernus, the council of Auchy-les-Mines, and the various people in France and United Kingdom who have been so interested in preserving the remains of the Hohenzollern Redoubt (including myself) in order to provide a lasting memorial that signifies the sacrifices made on both sides in the area during the Great War. I am also glad that the media attention (although some of it was typically sensationalist) has also increased awareness of the Loos battlefield, as it is very much neglected in terms of interest and visitors in comparison to Ieper and the Somme region. If this increased interest translates into a rise in the number of visitors to the area, the local economy will hopefully benefit as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted 15 November , 2004 Share Posted 15 November , 2004 Very pleased. It certainly should not have come to this but it now seems things are moving in the right direction. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Bramley Posted 16 November , 2004 Share Posted 16 November , 2004 Andrew, I wholeheartedly agree. So what can be done to provide the 'lasting memorial' that these lads deserve? Best regards, and well done all, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 16 November , 2004 Admin Share Posted 16 November , 2004 As I have said in a previous post there is not a great deal of the original redoubt left and it seems to me that the site has been used as a dump for many years. Andy The redoubt has changed an awful lot since I first visited it in 1987, then there were lots of craters still visible, but even then you could find old washing machines, cookers and the inevitable shopping trollies inside them. Very good news that whats left of it seems to be protected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewThornton Posted 17 November , 2004 Share Posted 17 November , 2004 The situation with regard to the Hohenzollern Redoubt is still not resolved I'm afraid. It appears that the work carried out by Monsieur Bernus has been suspended rather than ceased totally. The problems stem due to the landowner having had permission to carry out the work from the Mairie, that the remains of the Redoubt are private land and part of a working farm, and that the landowner has men employed to work on the site. I also notice that a report in the Evening Sentinel in Stoke tonight suggests that: "Mr Bernus has promised to cover with soil the area where building rubble has been dumped, before planting commemorative trees in memory of those who died. But he has said a second phase of work will begin in the area, although he has pledged that any human remains found will be carefully excavated and passed on to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission for proper burial." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 17 November , 2004 Share Posted 17 November , 2004 It appears that the work carried out by Monsieur Bernus has been suspended rather than ceased totally. The problems stem due to the landowner having had permission to carry out the work from the Mairie, that the remains of the Redoubt are private land and part of a working farm, and that the landowner has men employed to work on the site. Andrew, I'm sorry, and perhaps thick, but could you shed a little more light on the statement? Does this mean he is suspending his (and others) trash dumping only for a time, to resume doing so later? Also if its his land, what right does the Mairie have to tell him what to do with it? I understand the argument that it is part of a working farm, but is the acre (+/-) of the redoubt that critical to his being able to pay his laborers? I am not trying to be scarcastic, but it seems like if there were a memorial organization (and I am not familiar with the missions of the various ones out there to suggest which) out there that could purchase or rent in pertuity the acre and then refurbish and maintain it in conjunction with Mr. Bernus all sides (except maybe the dog) should be happy. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 17 November , 2004 Share Posted 17 November , 2004 As far as I am aware it isn't actually the Redoubt site itself that is being used to bury building rubble (not household rubbish) it is the portion just either side of it where Little Willie Trench and Big Willie Trench (no laughing at the back) joined West Face Trench. As has previously been pointed out the Redoubt is now basically a copse and is heavily used by the local hunting fraternity. The mayor would not tell the farmer what to do with his land but his office would have to give "planning permission" to allow the farmer to use the area as a landfill. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 17 November , 2004 Share Posted 17 November , 2004 basically a copse and is heavily used by the local hunting fraternity. What would you hunt in a copse? Aside from the passing farmer on either side, I would think you'd have very little chance of hitting anything for dinner. ...let alone a hunting club. Sorry it just strikes me as funny picturing a hunting club of scouts or school cadets roaming the Hohenzollern Redoubt copse with shotguns or something. ok... back to being serious...... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 17 November , 2004 Share Posted 17 November , 2004 What would you hunt in a copse? You know what I mean The copse is used by wildlife as cover........and then shot when they make a break for it. When I visited in September the floor of the Redoubt was literally ankle deep in shotgun cartridges. Either there is plenty of wildlife to shoot or the farmer is crossed eyed and couldn't hit a cows ar*e with a banjo. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewThornton Posted 18 November , 2004 Share Posted 18 November , 2004 Andrew, I'm sorry, and perhaps thick, but could you shed a little more light on the statement? Does this mean he is suspending his (and others) trash dumping only for a time, to resume doing so later? Also if its his land, what right does the Mairie have to tell him what to do with it? I understand the argument that it is part of a working farm, but is the acre (+/-) of the redoubt that critical to his being able to pay his laborers? I am not trying to be scarcastic, but it seems like if there were a memorial organization (and I am not familiar with the missions of the various ones out there to suggest which) out there that could purchase or rent in pertuity the acre and then refurbish and maintain it in conjunction with Mr. Bernus all sides (except maybe the dog) should be happy. Andy Andy In answer to your questions, it does appear from what I have been told from sources in France and this country that the work has been suspended while discussions take place that take into account the interests of Monsieur Bernus, who did receive planning permission to carry out this work on his land from the Mairie in Auchy-les-Mines. It does appear that this suspension is temporary and that he intends to continue at some point, but with attention paid to any human remains found in the area. As the area that has been worked on does cover the junction of Little Willie and the West Face of the Redoubt, as well as part of Big Willie, the likelyhood of finding fragments of remains is I would have thought fairly high because of the intensity of the fighting around that section in September/October 1915. Discussions are still on-going. There is a group in Leicester who apparently want to buy the site of Redoubt (and probably the ground that Monsieur Bernus has worked on) but I know very little about them other than a meeting between them and the authorities in Auchy took place last month. The Western Front Association also contacted the Mairie about concerns regarding the development of the site some time ago but did not receive a response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest paulaford2004 Posted 18 November , 2004 Share Posted 18 November , 2004 Just to let everybody know that the battlefield at Auchy Les Mines is to be preserved as a historical site. The mayor has signed a decree preventing any more tipping on the site with immediate effect. Us lot in Leicester got a bit miffed as roughly 500 men from the Leicestershire Regt died there so about 1600 readers of the Leicester Mercury sent protest letters as well as local MPs getting in on the act. All's well that ends well. Shame the dog'll be unemployed...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Looser Posted 19 November , 2004 Share Posted 19 November , 2004 I'm delighted to add to the previous message with two I've just received from France. The first, from Isabelle Pilarowski, says:- "Apparently, the mayor signed a decree to stop the rubble tip! What a relief!" The second, from Christiane Foucher, President of the Tourist Office of Bruay and Artois-Kent, says:- "Good news from Auchy-La Bassee. I tell you more about it this week-end. Dignity of dead British soldiers is safe and their last sleep quiet for eternity." Nice words. Congratulations to all you folks in the Midlands for your campaigning and letters. You've done your ancestors proud. I'd also like to make a heartfelt thanks to our friends in France who worked really hard and attended several meetings with the Mayor and made quite sure he knew that it wasn't just the British who were upset by the dumping. In particular, Jean-Luc Gloriant, a true expert on WW1 in the Auchy area, and Isabelle Pilarowski, of course, who have both endured an extremely stressful time in working to bring this matter to what appears a very satisfactory conclusion. Finally, a word for the dog and his owner Michel. Please don't confuse this farmer with the man who owns the land which encompasses the Redoubt. Like Jean-Luc, Michel had been trying to persuade the mayor to remove this threat for a very long time and, when I spoke to him, with the help of Isabelle's translation, back in May/June, he was beginning to think he was a voice in the wilderness. I assured him then that the British were grateful for his efforts and for bringing the matter to our attention. This visit was shortly followed by another, this time in the company of a Vice-President and the Deputy Chairman of the Western Front Association, who confirmed to Michel and Jean-Luc that we were also seriously concerned about the Redoubt and that the WFA would certainly be taking the matter up with the Mayor of Auchy. So, like I said Michel the farmer and the dog are definitely the good guys. So, next time you visit the Redoubt, please shake Michel's hand and say 'merci' and then give the dog some sweets. (n.b.Make sure you get that the right way round) Peter Last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewThornton Posted 19 November , 2004 Share Posted 19 November , 2004 Brilliant news Peter! The hard work that Isabelle, Jean-Luc, Michel and yourself have been doing behind the scenes has been successful. I am very happy that this significant site has been preserved and it is now confirmed that no more dumping will be carried out. As the Great-Grandson of one of the survivors of 46th Division's attack on 13th October 1915, I am gratified that there are people about who do care about significant places such as the Hohenzollern Redoubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 19 November , 2004 Share Posted 19 November , 2004 I very much welcome this news, as I have seen so many parts of the battlefields disappear in the 25+ years I have been visiting the Western Front. Sadly in the days when the Great War wasn't as fashionable as it is today, there was no-one to turn to for support like this and so that must be one of the positive things to come out of so many people visiting the Old Front Line. However, there a number of things I find confusing about this issue. There is much talk of preserving "the Hohenzollern Redoubt". This lends the impression that something remains of it, which is not the case and has not indeed since 1918. I first visited this area in the early 1980s when the mine craters were virtually all still there (as marked on a modern IGN map of the area, which has not been updated since the 60s in this respect). There was nothing remaining at surface level of the Redoubt. It's archaeology may well have been there, but there was no visible trace of it. The soil is very different here, and there are no 'ghost marks' of trenches as on the Somme and Hindenburg Line. In the early 1990s I was at Loos with Michelle and Wayne Young, and at this time we witnessed the wholesale clearance of the site and the gradual filling in of 95% of the craters. A vast 'chasse' (hunting) area was created, and skip loads of WW1 material was recovered... and then dumped. I suspect some bodies were found, but I don't recall any being reported. So what you all have seen in recent years, is probably less than 5% of what was there a dozen years ago... and when I was there in June bulldozers were busy near Cite Madagascar creating a huge gully for rubbish to go it. To be honest, I hardly recognised the area at ground level. I am pleased this will now be "preserved" but I do, as a French land owner myself, have to ask where does it all stop? For example, down on the Somme the site of the Y Sap mine (which was filled in c.1975) now has been sold and a notice on it says houses will be built there soon. There is as much left of Y Sap as there is the Hohenzollern Redoubt, as of today, and it is also the grave of many soldiers: both British and German (who I see seem to be missing from the Hohenzollern equation) So - should we preserve this site as well? Who will buy it and preserve it? Who will fund it? I mention this because it is an important issue to come out of this subject; we have to decide whether the whole landscape becomes a museum, and thus preserve everything restricting land owners, the French government and locals acces to their own ground, or whether we only preserve some of it - and if that, who and how decides what to preserve? I welcome your opinions on this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurent Posted 19 November , 2004 Share Posted 19 November , 2004 As a slight aside, wasn't the Queen Mothers brother killed on the Redoubt or just beyond near Fosse trench? Andy More infos here: http://www.nord.france3.fr/info/6166047-fr.php + VIDEO (in french !) Laurent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Looser Posted 19 November , 2004 Share Posted 19 November , 2004 Thanks Andrew, Paul and Laurent. As I'm just going out can I make the following quick comments:- 1.Any chance of a translation of the article posted by Laurent? 2.The Consul-General in Lille has received a letter from the Mayor of Auchy dated 17th November to the effect that all work has stopped and will not be resumed. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 19 November , 2004 Share Posted 19 November , 2004 However, there a number of things I find confusing about this issue. There is much talk of preserving "the Hohenzollern Redoubt". This lends the impression that something remains of it, which is not the case and has not indeed since 1918. Hello Paul I agree with everything that you have said and can certainly understand the frustration of French landowners who feel that they are not able to develop their land in the manner in which they feel is appropriate. I say this despite the fact that the body of my Great Grandfather may well have been dug-up and discarded during past excavations at the Redoubt(see signature below). The one thing that does remain of the Redoubt, despite the lack of physical archaeology, is the view of the battlefield. The German engineers who constructed the Redoubt must have been masters of the art as the location dominates the whole battlefield area in what is basically a flat landscape. Attacking up the slight slope into the teeth of the Redoubt with covering machine guns located on the Dump and at Mad Point must have been a very daunting experience for the attacking British. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewThornton Posted 19 November , 2004 Share Posted 19 November , 2004 ...it is also the grave of many soldiers: both British and German (who I see seem to be missing from the Hohenzollern equation) Paul I totally agree that the fact that the remains of German, and indeed French soldiers, also lie in this area has been neglected by the British press, though not by the French based on Laurent's post. As most of the press coverage has eminated from regional newspapers, their primary focus was on the "local" soldiers who were involved rather than the wider picture. It was clear from when I was interviewed for the newspapers in Burton and Wolverhampton that journalist will "cherrypick" from the information you give them in order to write a story that will have impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurent Posted 19 November , 2004 Share Posted 19 November , 2004 For those who want to know where is Hohenzollern Redoubt now in 2004. Regards Laurent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brindlerp Posted 19 November , 2004 Share Posted 19 November , 2004 For those interested: "The Western Front Association. Contributed Articles. Oblique aerial photographs of the Northern Sector of Loos Battlefield taken in August 2003. by Howard Anderson. These photographs were taken from a Cessna 172 at about 2000", all through a plastic window so may show some reflections. There are some crop or soil marks, even though they were taken in summer time. The white areas in the soil indicate disturbance caused by mine craters. This area was very heavily mined by both sides over long periods of the war." Check out http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/the...chy/cuinchy.htm Maps available at: http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/the...war/maproom.php Regards Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Looser Posted 19 November , 2004 Share Posted 19 November , 2004 Paul Reed remarked that the Germans seem to be missing from the Hohenzollern equation. Well what about the Scottish newspapers? Anyone who knows of the tragic attack of the 46th North Midland Division here on the 13th October will know of the spectacular success of the 9th Division here on the 25th September and the two days of desperate fighting which followed, as they tried to hold onto their hard-earned gains against Germans counter-attacking with an abundant supply of vastly superior grenades. Yet, while the Midlands press have launched an amazing campaign, strongly supported by their readers and their members of parliament, the Scottish press has, as far as I'm aware, done nothing on behalf of their lost countrymen who fought so bravely, incurring 75% casualties in their 3 days at the redoubt. As evidence of their apathy, when the 'Desecration' story, no doubt emanating from the Leicester area, appeared in the (English) Daily Mail, believe it or not, it did not appear in the Scottish Daily Mail, even though the article mentioned Captain Fergus Bowes-Lyon of The Black Watch! Nevertheless, the fact that the Scottish Daily Mail did not mention the new battle for the Hohenzollern meant that I was able to interest a major Scottish newspaper in the story. I supplied them with lots of facts, including the high proportion of Scottish troops in the Battle of Loos, the casualty figures incurred by them at the Redoubt and the names of the battalions who fought there. I particularly stressed the involvement of The Black Watch as I thought they (and we) would be able to exploit this by linking it with the present double-threat to the regiment. The newspaper agreed but, unfortunately, decided that they would delay the story until Monday of this week. When it did not appear, I rang the reporter I had been dealing with. He was full of apologies but said that, as The Mirror had run the story on the Saturday, they could not now use it! Despite my protestations, and comparisons with the admirable performance of the Midlands press, it all fell on deaf ears. That was it - end of story - literally! It was a good job that the Midlands papers did not take this selfish attitude, otherwise only one of them would have used it, the readers support would have been reduced proportionately, and we might not have been celebrating a successful outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 22 November , 2004 Share Posted 22 November , 2004 Peter, Sorry to hear of the apathy shown by the Scottish press which seems such a shame given their losses at this site, is there any further outcome ??? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurent Posted 23 November , 2004 Share Posted 23 November , 2004 Still available few days...More infos here: http://www.nord.france3.fr/info/6166047-fr.php + VIDEO (in french !) Laurent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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