Northumbrian Miner? Buried Hill 60

[ss002d6252]

I can't see an obvious entry in the Boer War rolls for him.

Craig

[draperju]

There is another clue that Sapper Bone had been a serving soldier

Further in his service record is a document showing that George Bone was called up on 5 August 1914 from National Reserve Class II

On Forces Records there is a G bone a trooper with the Imperial Yeomanry

Looking a the first page of the service record I read it as North artillery & 12 year East York artillery and North Yeomanry Any offers

Best wishes

Draperju

[seaforths]

Yes, did post earlier he was class 2 reserve and they wasted no time getting him back. Boer War running until 1902 but doesn't necessarily mean he served until 1902. However, at that time would they be on reserve for 12 years? 1902 to 1914 would surely have taken him close to the end of his time on reserve if that was the case and based on 12 years, if he left in 1901 he would no longer be a reservist. The LLT is not too clear on time spent on reserve. Class 2 seems to be men under the age of 50 for home service and Class 1 being as under 42.

Also to be taken into consideration, there seems to be a discrepancy with his age because his cross marker states 41 years of age. His birth registration given by Ray is 1875 so depending on how old he was when his parents registered him, Sapper Bone would have been closer to 41 when he was killed. Which means the age on his service record is incorrect at 37. There is a possibility that the 7 should be a 9. Given that he was called up, they must have been aware of his age from his reservist paperwork so I can only surmise from that, that he lied about his age much earlier on his initial enlistment pre-war, if it really is age 37.

My post no. 49 I inserted at the start, the time before arriving in Hill 60 area. He was billeted as Basseboom (that's how I read it) and I can only think that is loosely linked to the La Basse that appeared in the newspaper...

Unless of course Aurel might have a further suggestion?

[ss002d6252]

The National Reserve was for men already outside of any military commitment so it could have been some time before that he actually finished any military service (T.F. , Regular etc). I'm not sure he had been a regular soldier though.

Craig

[draperju]

I agree he was a territorial.

my calculations are that he was 39 on the date of his death. no aged is given on CWGC.

Seaforths He was married in last quarter of 1898 and appears in 1901 census. Obviously this is the window for service in South Africa

Draperju

[seaforths]

Interesting...I did say out of my comfort zone at the start not just because he isn't infantry but also because he is English. I have information on Scots Volunteer Battalions that served in SAfrica but not English units. I also assume that they were Volunteer Reserves or Battalions for the units he was with and not Territorials or TF at that time too. Compulsory birth registrations in England I wasn't sure on but I knew they were later than Scotland but this morning I found 1875 for England. The previous requirement to voluntarily register was 1 July 1837 but must assume the beginning of 1875 for compulsory registration. I could not find anything more definitive. I doubt very much if the issue regarding his true age will be resolved without a birth certificate. Not so easy to acquire at a reasonable fee. But would be inclined to go with what records are available in which case, he is two years younger than the cross states. If the classification on reservists was based solely on age, surely he should have been class 1 being less than 42?

I agree, I don't think he was a regular - two clasps to the SAfrica = two tours?

I have another photograph which might be of some relevance and need to sort some things out before posting...

[ss002d6252]

I agree, I don't think he was a regular - two clasps to the SAfrica = two tours?

The clasps would certainly indicate he was in two of the different theatres of operation in South Africa but they could have been from the same tour if he moved about.

If the classification on reservists was based solely on age, surely he should have been class 1 being less than 42?

According to LLT the age criteria would have put in Class 1 but there was also the medical criteria as to whether a man was fit to serve 'home or abroad' whereas the Class 2 was fit to serve at 'home'. It's possible (or probable) that men would be re-classified at some point.

Presumably once the MSA 1916 came in to being he would have been subject to service wherever the army then wanted him (in the same way that the T.F. home service option ceased to apply) - this bit is a moot point anyway though due to the date of death - however something else got him overseas before he died.

It seems he enlisted after being called up under his Class 2 commitment and decided that the T.F. was the place to be. Had to report on the 6th Aug 1914 for a National Reserve Medical which was the same day he enlisted in to the T.F.

[draperju]

The service record shows that he signed the Imperial Service Obligation on 22 deptember 1914

Draperju

[seaforths]

Thanks both and interesting. Is it then a possibility he enlisted asking for RE using his experience as a miner? Bill Poster crossed out on his papers - something he was possibly doing between jobs at that particular time. Whereas, if he had let things run their course as a reservist, he might have found himself with an Artillery or Yeomanry unit and perhaps didn't want to return to one of those units...I guess we will never know.

Returning to his burial location, for reasons that would require a lengthy explanation. I did not photograph the images in the album in order nor was I allowed to photograph all of the images. However, whoever took the pictures and compiled the album, numbered most of the images. So the images in my folder are out of sequence but today I found another image. The photograph with the cross is captioned and given number 27 image 28 I do not have and I have checked my camera and I didn't take a photograph of 28 but image 29 is captioned 'The railway cutting at Hill 60'. It is possible he took them on the same day and the location of one image is in the same area as the other as in nearby...

[Aurel Sercu]

Guess whose headstone ... :-)

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

And while you guys were discussing thins I was enjoying my walk near Ypres Ramparts (with my dog + wife), and this sight (without the dog, who was not allowed, and without my wife, who was allowed, but had to keep Dingo company outside)

1st from left : Landers, 2nd Bone, 3rd White, 4th Woods, etc.

Seaforths, what you read as Basseboom no doubt is Busseboom. Hamlet between Reningelst and Poperinge.

As to the Railway question. The bridge is wellknown (under repair right now), and Larch Wood Cem. is very close. (I was there a month ago with a friend, and we were trying to find the entrance of the tunnel, which was some 50 yards from the cemetery.)

No need to go to CWGC Larch Wood Cem. For I did, 3 or so days ago, hoping to find a sapper B***.

But among the 7 or so, none with a name that looked like it.

Aurel

[Phil Evans]

Aurel,

Would that be the bridge right next to Hill 60? The road then goes due East to Zwarteleen around the North side of Hill 60?

Marjorie,

On the IWM/WFA Mapping the Front, Disc 1, look at map MA_000730. The trenches are numbered, but unfortunately start at 33 (West end). The Bridge is about where 37 becomes 38.

I am guessing that 27 would be about at the Canal, but not sure which side.

Phil

[Phil Evans]

Marjorie,

A couple of weeks ago there was a thread about Trench 47. A section of it was named 47S. Looking again at the map segment I posted, there is a mark that could also be construed as an R, just to the left of the 47 in black ink.

Here is the image:

[seaforths]

Aurel and Phil,


I was looking at the MA_000730 just resting my eyes and logged in here. I didn't come across it last night but must have been close and after some time trying to remember where I was in the cd last night, I managed to find it tonight with less brain ache. However, I copied some parts of maps based on Aurel's post no. 25 and also Larch Wood last night too. I'm b***ered if I can find where I put them! Now you've posted again while I am writing - I need to go and get my specs. Great photos Aurel, it looks very peaceful. No dogs in there? We are allowed dogs in cemeteries here. Busseboom - oh I'm back to the drawing board on La Basse I might have to accept that it was a printing error in the paper or the information was given in error to the paper. Now need to get my specs and go into the diaries. They used letters and numbers not trench names and only gave map refs for April onwards. I will check and post...

[Aurel Sercu]

Phil,

You wrote : "Would that be the bridge right next to Hill 60? The road then goes due East to Zwarteleen around the North side of Hill 60?"

Yes, correct.

(But I don't know from what side the bridge photo was taken. Showing north side or south side ? (Anyway, I guess not relevant.)

Seaforths,

Correct. No dogs allowed in CWGC cemeteries. And as Dingo is (ex-)male, you can understand why. :-)

Aurel

[Phil Evans]

Phil,

You wrote : "Would that be the bridge right next to Hill 60? The road then goes due East to Zwarteleen around the North side of Hill 60?"

Yes, correct.

(But I don't know from what side the bridge photo was taken. Showing north side or south side ? (Anyway, I guess not relevant.)

Aurel

My own sense of self preservation tells me not to stand with my back to the enemy and take a photo - but who knows?

Phil

[seaforths]

I have been digging around in the TNA files and found a file just on the operations from February to April 1915 separate file from the diary pages of those dates. As the file was just short of 100Mb I thought I would throw caution to the wind and blow £3.30 and see what it turned up. I now have a map reference for 13th February:

Northumbrian diaries for 13th Feb as follows:

Divisional reference to maps used (unfortunately I haven't found a map yet but almost 300 pages of information for 3 months operations):

Divisional for 13th Feb:

Obviously the Divisional reference for 13th February is to the ruined house blown up by Lt. Stowell of 1st Northumbrians. Could it be possible that I.34.b is where our Sapper was killed? Now I have recovered from my brainstorm I will look properly at the map and bridge. It was a bit of frustration on my part not being able to find any decent location references in the Northumbrians diary that sent me off at a tangent to TNA to see what more I might find. Briefly looking at the casualty reports at Div. level there seems to be some discrepancies...but that will have to wait (not for tired eyes).

I wouldn't be too sure on the direction of that photograph. I saw another of the photographs today of some nutter standing on the edge of a crater (La Boiselle) and clearly ground and airburst activity going on behind him! He has also taken a photograph of a chateau with a shell bursting in front of it so some of his photography jaunts seemed to have been quite risky.

[Phil Evans]

Quite possible - I.34.b takes in trenches 33 to 36.

I also found another map on Disc 2 that shows that Trench 29 is the first one on that side of the canal bank, just below The Bluff.

M_026229 is the map number on the disc.

Phil

[seaforths]

Thanks Phil, I have another at M_026233.jpg reproduction of German map. Do you see the mine craters shown all over the place? I wonder how many of those were from early 1915? That is definitely an 'R' written in pen by the way.

Aurel, I have spotted some references to locations of La Basse on a map and so you might want to see them but the hour is late.

It is going to take me a while to go through all those pages from this evening but perhaps there might be something on who was where in the line on the 13th that might be able to confirm how much shelling was going on in other parts along the line.

[Aurel Sercu]

Google Satellite pic

28.I.b is a little inaccurate. (= a square 450 m x 450 m)

So I took 28.I.b.50.50, which is the centre of 1.b

And then marked with 8 dots the subsquare I.b

The canal is not in the pic. Just a little bit bottom left corner. (The rest of the canal south of the pic)

I also marked the Railroad, Hill 60 and Zwarteleen.

Where I marked 3 dots near the upper side = Larch Wood Cemetery.

(I should have marked the other 3 cemeteries as well ! :-( Woods, DCLI, Hedge Row)

Hoping this is a little useful to GWFers who are not familiar with the area.

Yes, I am lucky, I know ... :-)

Aurel

[seaforths]

It's a good shot Aurel - thank you for posting it. Unfortunately, work commitments for me today and tomorrow with a training course in the morning and I have to work evenings too. I have been looking at the casualty reports tonight but they have been scanned out of sequence date wise as have some operational reports. Definitely something amiss on the casualties. None for 13th for the Northumbrians and some on the 12th but it ends on 13th then out of sequence reports but I have spotted the week beginning 14th further back after 28th so at least I know they are there. I have also been trawling through looking for information that defines their lines but they seem to be on both sides of the canal from what I have read (so far anyway) I did see some information on the sections but not yet for the mid-February. I will have to wait until Friday to get back into them properly. Also, not helpful, I cannot get to the notes I jotted down last night without making noise and waking others up - only me awake just now (and probably shouldn't be).

[draperju]

I have been looking at the War Diary of the 83rd Brigade to which the 1/1 Northumbrian Field Company was attached. There is a map of the disposition of the Brigade for the 11- 13 February 1915 astride the Ypres-Menin Railway their left is on Hill 60

I have not got the photoshop skills to get into a form uploading.

Draperju

[seaforths]

I have been looking at the War Diary of the 83rd Brigade to which the 1/1 Northumbrian Field Company was attached. There is a map of the disposition of the Brigade for the 11- 13 February 1915 astride the Ypres-Menin Railway their left is on Hill 60

I have not got the photoshop skills to get into a form uploading.

Draperju

Ah so 83rd Bde. I didn't go to that level because I wasn't sure which brigade and there was some confusion in transferring brigades in/out which is how the Liverpool Scottish ended up with 28th Division temporarily and probably hence the photographs. I think 84th were moved away from their area for a while and back again later.

I am on a break briefly at work so not on my PC. It would be very helpful I think, to see the map of their area and I have PMd a suggestion to you on how to post bigger file size images which you might want to consider...

I will try and get back into the casualties later and also the notes I made on La Basse. I found a map with two such places with that spelling but not too sure how close they were to that area and though I don't have my notes with me (I will get them tonight), I think one was a farm.

Edit: As a matter of interest, did 1st Northumbrian Field Coy. report their casualties to 83rd Bde? I am just wondering because it would be another reference as a comparison with their unit and divisional casualties.

[Aurel Sercu]

Seaforths,

You wrote : "................ and also the notes I made on La Basse. I found a map with two such places with that spelling but not too sure how close they were to that area and though I don't have my notes with me (I will get them tonight), I think one was a farm."

I am curious. Do you mean "La Basse Cour Farm" and/or "La Basse Ville" ?

The former is near the village of Messines (7.5 km from Hill 60), the latter near Warneton (8.5 km south of Hill 60)

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

Just to say that I started a Topic in "Cemeteries" that is related to one specific aspect of the Bent / Bone mystery. (I.e. : were men who were originally buried elsewhere, later were taken to Ramparts Cemetery (Lille Gate) in Ypres ?

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=217444

Aurel