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Capture of Major Yate II


seaforths
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Sounds like you are busy Trajan.

I did have two contenders for the follow on section, but they were both only a sentence or two and I couldn't follow the thread. Here is Option 1.

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Oh well done you beat me to it - I was just going to post the page! I have just downloaded a chart to help me convert the German script letters - I get stuck on quite a few but I am getting a little better. I have found more information on the sacking of Louvaine and so it seems quite feasible that the Bavarians moved there from Liege:

'...On this day Louvain was crammed with troops. Some 10,000 men had just arrived from Liege and were beginning to take up quarters in the town. A few hundred hussars were coming along the Malines road, covered with dust and leading their horses by the bridles...This lasted eight days. Every time fresh troops reached Louvain, they rushed on their prey. Recalling his entry and his stay at Louvain on August 29th, a Landsturm soldier from Halle wrote in his diary: "The battalion... arrive dragging along with it all sorts of things, particularly bottles of wine, and many of the men were drunk... The battalion set off in close order for the town, to break into the first houses they met, to plunder - I beg pardon, I mean to requisition - wine and other things too. Like a pack let loose, each one went where he pleased. The officers led the way and set a good example." Source: http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/louvain_judicialreport.htm

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Herewith updated Word Doc that includes Gordon Hrs:

ALL MOVEMENTS FROM BATTLE AREA TO TORGAU.docx

Also, relating back to Hermann Otto, the Bavarian in the book extract I posted earlier; I've found 5 pages of Herman Otto German service papers on Ancestry, I just need to weed out the Wurtenburg and Sache men the rest are Bavarians. There is a chance we might find out who the Bavarians were at Louvain :D

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Slowly catching up...

Here is the Berliner Zageblatt article for the 22nd September 1914, reporting on his death.

I've just started working on that one and hope to complete it today!

And here is the 26th September article, reporting on his burial. I'm not sure if it ends mid-sentence, or not. With my limited linguistic skills I can't find an obvious follow on, if it does.

Sounds like you are busy Trajan.

I did have two contenders for the follow on section, but they were both only a sentence or two and I couldn't follow the thread. Here is Option 1.

Busy indeed! No peace for the wicked OR the good when there are two battling infant boys around in addition to other tasks and chores!

I have done the first part of the 26th September article to the best of my ability (any corrections welcomed, siegegunner!) - but I need to see your option 2 for the continuation, as option 1 (which is missing a bit to the left) it certainly doesn't seem to be.

Berliner Tageblatt – 26 September 1914

Major Yates Begräbnis

(Telegramm unseres korrespondenten)

Torgau, 25 September

Auf dem Friedhofe des Dorfes Martinskirchen bei Mühleberg wurde gestern in aller Stille der englische Mayor Yate begraben, der am Sonnabend von Torgau entflohen war und in der Nähe des Dorfes Martinskirchen bei seiner Ergreifung sich die Kehle durchschnitt. Seine englischen Kameraden hatten eine große Blumenspende dorthin geschict. In der früheren Meldung was gesagt worden, daß ein Zettel von fremder Händ bei Yate vorgefunden worden ware, mit der Angabe der Marchroute von Torgau nach Dresden, ja daß es den Anschein gehabt haben könnte, als ob ein Aussenstehender...

Berliner Tageblatt - 26 September 1914

Major Yate's Funeral

(Telegraph from our correspondents)

Torgau, 25 September

Yesterday, in the cemetery of the village Martinskirchen at Mühlenberg, the burial took place quietly of the English Mayor Yate, who escaped on Saturday from Torgau, and who cut his throat upon capture in the vicinity of the village of Martinskirchen. His English comrades sent a large floral wreath there. In an earlier report it was said that a list [of directions?] made in a different hand from Yates was discovered, indicating the marching route from Torgau to Dresden, so that it might give the impression to an outsider [bystander?]

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I found something in the Magdeburg newspaper it was a list really but I could understand bits of it and it mentioned Nr.7 Train Battalion, Munster. I did a search and this is what I found: http://www.kaisersbunker.com/gtp/New/train0.htm

Adds something to TRAJAN's theory reading the information on the Saxon train guard uniform if the men in the photograph were train battalion. Of course they could have been guards to get prisoners from wherever they were being held to their point of entrainment at which time they would be handed over to the train battalion.

Also more here:http://www.krausehouse.ca/krause/GermanArmyOrganization.htm

SAXON ARMY CORPS X11

1st Royal Saxon Train Battalion No. 12

2nd Company

•Seit dem 1. Oktober 1913 war Bischofswerda Garnisonsstadt und Standort für die 2. Kompanie des 1. Sächsischen Trainbatallions. ... Since October 1, 1913 Bischofswerda was a garrison town and location for the 2nd Company of the 1st Saxon Train batallions. [ http://www.bischofswerda.de/stadt/historie.htm ]

•Königlich-Sächsische Armee um 1900/14 (1. Nr. Sächsische Armee, 2. Nr. Reichsheer) ... Königl.-Sächs. Train-Bataillon Nr. 12 - Dresden Brucker-Lager-Marsch von J. Kral ..[ .http://www.blasmusik-sachsen.de/archiv_blaeserpost/2002_01/artikel_01.html [

•Supply Troops ... Kgl. Sächs. 1. Train-Bataillon Nr.12 ... [http://www.wartimememories.co.uk/greatwar/centralpowers/index.html ] Train Battalions of the German empire in 1914

Regiment and Garrison Cuff Pattern & Color Straps Wappen Kgl. Sächs. 1. Train-Bataillon Nr.12

(Dresden/Bischofswerda) XII Armee Korps Black Sachsen (Saxon) Pattern Blue "Squared" Strap Piped in Red w/ Red 12 Gilt Sachsen Wappen on Gilt Star

Train Batl. Nr. 12 wore a light blue Waffenrock with black collar and cuffs piped in red.

Seaforth, you have finally stirred me into action on the Saxon Train Battalion... I am at home and don't have my saxon file here - it's at the office and so I can't give the source for this illustration right now (I will do so later today) but here are the Saxon no. 12 uniform colours, the top part of the illustration showing the collar and tunic colour, and cuffs and shoulder tabs; the middle bit is the back of the tunic. Note that according to the German source I took this from the Saxon no 12 was the ONLY train battalion with this hellblau tunic - even the Bavarian train wore a dunkelblau tunic (with hellblau collar, cuffs and shoulder tabs).

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And you would probably like to see this also - a Saxon Train battalion kratzchen in regulation hellblau, with the large lower cockade having a green inner ring (for Saxony): - http://www.derrittmeister.com/33-132-enlisted-man-mutze-train-battalion-saxony.html

The seller's description of this reads:

Before WW I, the Saxon Army just had two Train-Abteilungs. One was Königl. Sächs. 1. Train Abteilung Nr 12, which was created in 1849. It was garrisoned in Dresden-Bischofswerda, where it was attached to the XII. ArmeeKorps. The second unit was Königl. Sächs. 2. Train-Abteilung Nr 19. This unit was raised in 1899. It was garrisoned in Leipzig, where it was attached to the XIX. ArmeeKorps. Today we are offering an enlisted man’s pre WW I mütze from one of these two Abteilungs. The mütze’s basic body is light-blue. A wide black band, measuring 1 1/2" in width, circles its lower section. Two narrow red bands of piping appear above and below the black band. A third red piping band encircles the mütze’s top. The mütze’s front displays the correct state and reich’s kokarden. The Saxon kokarde is green and white. The reich’s kokarde exhibits Germany’s national colors: red, black, and white.

But as I indicated above, the German source I have been using for pre-WWI non-feldgrau uniforms indicates that the Saxon no.12 battalion was the only one with a light blue kratzchen...

Trajan

EDIT: PS: I am not saying that those men in the capture photograph have to be Saxon, they could be Bavarian: but for the sake of completeness, the possibility that these men are Saxons has to be taken into account, as you are well aware!

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Thanks for that. I'll give it a proper read when I've got more time to take it in.

Here is the Berliner Zageblatt article for the 22nd September 1914, reporting on his death.

The links to the source are on the document.

I had a look at this and basically it is a longer and somewhat more detailed version - and probably the original source for - what we have already seen in the Laibacher newspaper for 26 September 1914, reported on earlier in the locked thread at post 213 with correction from siegegunner at post 219... (I suspect it is the original source as the penultimate sentence in this piece is identical to the final sentence in the Laibacher piece - Der Fremde war der Major Charles Alice Yate)

It does, however, add the following extra bits of information:

1) Yate's shabby badly fitting clothing included blue working trousers.

2) The Sugar factory director's name was Schultze.

3) The 'list' (Zettel) that Yate was carrying, referred to in the 'burial' piece for 26 September, and which was written in a 'strange hand '(i.e., not Yate’s) gave the walking route from Torgau via Mühlberg, and Meißen to Dresden.

4) Yate was carrying English 'gold coins' (I assume full sovereigns, but they could be half-sovereigns - or guineas?), and 100 German paper marks.

Trajan

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Heavens to Betsy! You've been busy. Yate was also wearing a cloak that was too short for him. He was also carrying 'English papers' and I take it from that it doesn't mean newspapers. Curious, how did that German newspaper know it wasn't his writing? How did they know what his writing looked like? A couple of the offficer's accounts on Yate said he had committed to memory all the names and the contacts for their NOK so that he could let them know they were alive and POWs. I will check on his file but I think there were only two people that were asked by the Camp Commandant to help identify Yate (bearing in mind they were not allowed to go and see his body) and that was Bond and I think Butler (RAMC). I will check up on this and repost his burial details that I had posted in the other thread. Yes, they did send a wreath for sure.

I will also do the uniform thing but I need to be on the PC or laptop for that.

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Heavens to Betsy! You've been busy. ...

... Curious, how did that German newspaper know it wasn't his writing? How did they know what his writing looked like?

... I will also do the uniform thing but I need to be on the PC or laptop for that.

This is only my second free day in over 4 weeks and as it was a Saturday morning, the boys and wifey were fast asleep, and so I was able to catch up somewhat!

Yes, the 'fremde hand' features in both reports, and I have no idea exactly what it might mean other than that it was not Yate's handwriting - unless it was written using a more Latinate script rather than German kurrentschrift?

The source for the Saxon Train Battalion clip is: Die Uniformen der Deutschen Armee Farbendarstellung der Uniformen der deutschen Armee, Verlag von Moritz Ruhl, Leipzig, 1899, Pl. 19.

Trajan

PS: did you like the field cap?

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I need to see your option 2 for the continuation, as option 1 (which is missing a bit to the left) it certainly doesn't seem to be.

I think Option 1 is the missing bit, but one or possibly two words are missing between the two sections.

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I think Option 1 is the missing bit, but one or possibly two words are missing between the two sections.

I did wonder about that because of the mention of (apparently) Latin script and (certainly) the English army, but I have to admit that as it began with the mention of a 'game', it didn't seem to fit...

But, let's give it a go...

… im Spiele gehabt hätte. Dies ist nicht richtig; vielmehr waren … snamen, von denen einer noch falsch war, in lateinischer ... stabenschrift, wie es in der englischen Armee bei … Vorschrift ist, abgefast

…] would have in games. This is not so; rather it were [… ]'s name, one of which was still wrong, in Latin […] {?letters?}written, as is the case in the English army by/when […] regulations, ?

Ok, well, I guess it could represent the end of the piece, and it could be restored with what comes before to read something along the lines of:

"In an earlier report it was said that a list [of directions?] made in a different hand from Yates was discovered, indicating the marching route from Torgau to Dresden, so that it might give the impression to an outsider [bystander?]… that [the list] was part of a game. This was not the case: rather the list was a series of [place?] names, of which one was false, all of them written in the upright Latin letters as is used by the English Army according to their regulations."

What do you reckon SG? Ich glaube das deine Deutsch is viel besser als mein! :thumbsup:

Over to you now Phil! :whistle:

Trajan

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It certainly fits in with my earlier post. When Breen and Yate intended to escape together their plan was to go to Dresden and steal a couple of bicycles. The plan may have them become a singular one because they couldn’t get enough clothes for Breen to escape with him. Below is extracted from the map (with key) on his file. Red markings are mine to make the originals easier to find.

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R = Sugar Factory Brottewitz
X = Scene of Major Yate’s death
Y = Burial place (Churcyard)
Z = Schloss Martinskirchen
Kottlitz and Guldenstern at the southern most edge of the map are northern areas of Muhlberg. (Sources: Yate file TNA)

With regard to the Berliner Tageblat, I clicked on Phil’s hyperlink for his source and was able to access and download the first & second page quite easily however it is too big a file size to post that one page. I have tried photobucket and it won’t play with documents and knowing my previous shambolic attempt to locate the second part of an article, I wouldn’t even attempt it now. I have your email Trajan so I will just email you the second page – it’s the best I can do under the circumstances. I will have a look and see if I can find out some of the stuff he was carrying with him there are about 5 statements to go through plus Bond’s comments. Meanwhile you might find the above helpful with regard to the article.

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By the way, can someone please tell me what a Schloss is (as in the post above)? I tried typing it into the Babbling Babylon translator and it gave me a number of options but I'm none the wiser as I don't know which it could be (if it comes before a place name I would have thought castle/palace/chateau?):

(new spell.=Schloss) chateau, castle, palace, king's palace; lock, hinge, movable joint on which a door or other part turns
close, shut, shut down; conclude, finish, wind up; include, contain; infer, derive, surmise

Thanks in advance

M

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Thanks for that plan - I also knew you were on the cards with this one but even so, my oh my, that plan shows thorough scholarship and is good to have!

Schloss is indeed 'Castle' or the like so in this case rather like Barnard Castle, Co.Durham: the town is Barnard castle, as is the castle.

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I've had to be a bit surreptitious keeping up with the thread today - orders from above have had to come first.

Thanks Trajan and Mick for the translations. M, I've got your email.

The Berliner Tageblatt was scanned out of line, which made things harder. I have tried to splice the missing bit on the left hand side. The continuation I used was the most obvious, as it was the only one on the following page.

I'll catch up with the rest later.

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I've had to be a bit surreptitious keeping up with the thread today - orders from above have had to come first. ... The Berliner Tageblatt was scanned out of line, which made things harder. I have tried to splice the missing bit on the left hand side. The continuation I used was the most obvious, as it was the only one on the following page....

I know only too well that need for 'orders for the day' - especially on a Saturday!

Ok, what can we do with that piece? It really needs a German expert, but a quick read through of what you give spliced together suggests that the list Yate carried had place names (Orstnamen) and letters in 'Latin'-type block capitals (Druckbuchstabenschrift), 'as used in the English army regulations', so (although I say it myself!) my suggested reconstruction above might not be too far off the mark. I just don't get that bit about 'Spiele' = 'game(s)' at the start...

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"In an earlier report it was said that a list [of directions?] made in a different hand from Yates was discovered, indicating the marching route from Torgau to Dresden, so that it might give the impression to an outsider [bystander?]… that [the list] was part of a game. This was not the case: rather the list was a series of [place?] names, of which one was false, all of them written in the upright Latin letters as is used by the English Army according to their regulations."

What do you reckon SG? Ich glaube das deine Deutsch is viel besser als mein! :thumbsup:

"In the earlier report it was stated that Yate was found to be in possession of a note written in a different hand, indicating the walking/marching route from Torgau to Dresden, which seemed to suggest that another person had had a hand in the venture. That is not correct: the place names, one of which was wrong, were in fact written in Latin printed characters, as is the convention in the British Army for proper names."

Mick

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Here with three reports mainly on Major Yate's escape and recapture. The first being from Captain Brandes who was the Camp Commandant but not the Commandant of Torgau which was a garrison town therefore had its own Commandant that superseded the Camp Commandant in both rank and authority:

According to a signed statement by Prof. Dr. Brandes the Camp Commandant at the time of Major Yate’s escape):

‘...having impressed everyone as being extremely nervous and excitable, since he became a prisoner. It was also declared that he had tried to shoot himself on the battlefield, and while travelling through Germany, attempted to jump out of the railway carriage...’

On his recapture he states the following:

‘... about midday it was reported by telephone from Martinskirchen that an escaped prisoner from Torgau had been recaptured there, who had suddenly cut his throat with a razor, while the director of the sugar factory, Dr. Schulz, and some workmen had searched a small package they took from him, hoping to find some clue. There was no doubt as to his identity, especially as it was found that the neck of the dead man was disfigured by scars which identified Yate, who had been operated some years before. A little later the clothes of the dead man and the money found, were brought to Torgau, together with a report of the Gendarmerie...In conclusion I may say, that Major Yate had attracted my attention from the very beginning of his imprisonment at the camp and I conversed with him very often. His opinions differed considerably from those of the rest of the officers...’

Edit: Corrected name error in first line from Braun to Brandes

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According to Breen (also Yate TNA file as previous post from Braun):

‘...He then equipped himself finally and arranged to leave on Friday night if the conditions were favourable. He exchanged his safety razor for my open razor. It did not strike me at the time as strange because an open razor is a useful knife at times on escape excursions of this kind...’

Breen then continues as to his conversation with Major Yate and what Major Yate’s fate night be should he be discovered:

‘...I remember that Major Yate remarked that he would like to obtain a revolver, in the event of finding himself surrounded by an excited mob of civilians who would in all probability put him to, a slow and painful death by clumsy violence...Two months later at Burg I have seen a similar case. A Russian Officer died after four hours agony, from injuries sustained on recapture. Major Yates’ fluent German would only make his chances smaller; when his effects proved on examination that he was English...He was dressed in a pair of work-mans’ trousers , a loose cloak, a soft hat, and black boots...He seems to have lost his hat during the night...Lieut Butler told me he had been shewn the Major’s bloodstained clothes by Lieut Brandes. Lieut Butlers’ description of the clothes coincided with those actually worn by him on the night of his escape...I ascertained from Frau Braun, the proprietress of the Camp Kantine, that the body had been buried at Martinskirchem, and that she had placed a wreath on the grave on behalf of the Officers POW who subscribe for this object...Major Yate is buried in the parish church of Martinskirchen (Evangelical) about 11 kilometres by road from Torgau about 1 kilometre from the east bank of the Elbe. The grave (set with pansies) is excellently looked after by Herr Stephan and the Local Inhabitants. An oak cross bearing the following inscription in large white capitals on a black background (over all dimensions 3 x 1 ½ metres) is set up and excellently preserved...’

At this point Breen has hand drawn a cross showing the inscription:

‘CHARLES ALLIK LASSINGTON YATE MAJOR KINGS OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY GESTORBEN 20 SEPT 1914...The grave is close to the East wall of the Church among German graves...’

In Breen’s report, was information given to him by the ‘Schloss owner, Herr Stephan:

‘...Owing to the excitement and hostility of the country population, In order to avoid any unpleasantness he purchased the coffin and arranged that a number of trusted employees on his estate should hold the funeral at dawn on September 24th. This took place very quietly at 5am and he subsequently placed the cross described on the grave. A wreath obtained by Frau Braun (Kantine Proprietress in the camp) at the expense of the Officer Prisoners of War was placed on the grave. Stephan keeps the grave in order at his own expense...’

Breen also interviewed Herr Schultze, Manager of the Sugar Factory, Brottewitz. He said:-

‘On Sunday morning, September 20th, I was cycling towards Cosdorf, between 10 and 11 am, when I met a strange looking man walking on the side path close under the trees. The man wore a shabby cloak much too short for him, workman’s trousers and was hatless. I hailed him but got no answer. Seeing some young men of the the peasant class, near the Slate Factory I shouted to them and they hurried to me. I gave one of these my cycle and told him to overtake the suspect, saying “He may be a Spy”. The man overtook the stranger and ordered him to halt. I and the others hurried to the spot...Meanwhile the peasants had removed the mans cloak, and were proceeding to unfasten rather roughly a haversack, which he had fastened to his back by cross straps, when he suddenly took a razor from the inner pocket of his vest and drew it several times across is throat. The action was utterly unexpected, so that everybody was taken by surprise; we all drew back in dismay, and nobody interfered when dropping the razor the stranger commenced to walk away. He walked on some forty yards; I then ordered the men to follow and overtake him, when he suddenly collapsed and died at once...I should think he would have been roughly handled and possibly severely beaten when the men discovered from the contents of his knapsack that he was not a German. He killed himself when he saw that his knapsack must inevitably betray him...Schulze collected the effects and gave the papers found to Lieut Brandes. The private effects he kept and gave to Madam Perret, who came on behalf of Mrs Yate from Switzerland in 1917...’

Edit: two typos

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Finally, Lt. Col. Bond’s account regarding Major Yate from 'Prisoners Grave and Gay':
‘...Great stress was laid by the Germans on the fury of the people, and on the fatal consequences that were bound to ensue to any prisoner of war who might be found outside the fortress walls, so that in those first weeks it required a bold man to carry out an escape. Such a man was found in Charles Yate, who was the first to make the attempt. We had last seen Yate standing on the road at Le Cateau. A fortnight later I had chanced to look out of the window of our barrack-room at Torgau early one morning and was astonished and delighted to see him washing himself under the pump. He looked wild and haggard. He had had a thrilling journey across Germany. Carried off from the battlefield in a private car, he had been passed from one headquarters to another. Twice he had made determined efforts to escape, and had been brought back. Finally, labelled dangerous and closely guarded, he was brought to Torgau...he was bent on making another desperate effort to escape or on dying in the attempt. He had somehow acquired and concealed a pair of workmans trousers and a blue overall. He had managed to string together a rope ladder made of up odd bits of equipment, braces and bits of string. He disappeared one night over the parapet and dropped into the ditch, with the assistance of two other officers, Roche and Breen. His plan was to get to Switzerland. There were places on the way to the Swiss frontier where he felt certain of finding a temporary asylum, if necessary, for he knew the country from boyhood, and he intended first to head for the home of his old nurse, who was still alive. His wife was living in Switzerland for reasons of health. Yate learnt the names of all the British officers in Torgau by heart in order to be able to give the tidings of their being alive, should he succeed in getting out of Germany...’

On Major Yates death and recapture:
‘...Even the good chaplain, O’Rourke, who petitioned to be allowed to conduct the service was told that if he were allowed to appear at the funeral as a priest he would be torn to pieces by the mob. The following day I received a message summoning me to the presence of the Commandant. The so-called rope ladder was displayed upon a table, and I was asked if I recognised it. I had not seen it before. A workman’s blue smock and a pair of trousers were then shown to me and I was asked to identify them. These were also unknown to me, but I concluded that they must have been worn by Yate...I was finally asked if I was aware of the nature of any old wounds which Yate showed on his body, and a large cicatrice, which I knew he must have from a wound received in South Africa, was described to me. I felt certain then that he had indeed met his end, but uncertain as to the manner of it. One had to accept the fact he was dead...’

Some things seem a bit strange between Bond’s pieces of writing. First he acknowledges he saw the clothes and ladder Major Yate had and then he denies them in front of the Commandant. I can only surmise from this that he knew and recognised them but lied to the Commandant.

It seems that between the accounts, there is some sense and accuracy to the newspaper reports so far. There is the confirmation of Dresden being one of the destinations to steal a bicycle. There is also confirmation that he was carrying papers or other items that while not betraying his identity by name would perhaps betray his nationality. I am still puzzled as to how the Gendarmerie would know of his German nurse. Given as having a ‘prodigious’ memory (by Padre O’Rorke) who also stated he committed all the officers names to memory, I doubt he would have written down the address of his nurse. Unless of course he made this information known to his visitors from Berlin but that seems rather a silly thing to do if you are intending to make that a part of a future escape route.

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Now...uniforms. This, I'm afraid is the best I can do with the kokade at the moment. I have not interfered in any way with the kokade themselves. I have used the following tools across the entire image; Hue and Saturation, pin cushion distortion and sharpness. This is the result:

From this (as originally from post #1 and other threads on the forum-

post-70679-0-46526100-1402778285_thumb.j

To this-

post-70679-0-69378700-1402778047_thumb.j

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Zooming into the kokade (with MS Picture manager) the man on the right that seems to have the clearest image it looks like this:

post-70679-0-40953300-1402780204_thumb.j

There seems to be no real hint of a white centre to the kokade and this is also true of the others in the photo. That said, there also seems to be no hint of a light cross either in the kokades (which is what I thought I saw before).

post-70679-0-24195900-1402780205_thumb.j

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Trajan, you could be putting Mick out of a job at this rate.

Mick, I think I owe you a beverage next time we meet.

I have started going over the Liege Feldpost cards again, but only managed to get through about a hundred last night and haven't collated them yet. The early ones are not easy as the franking system doesn't appear to have got established until about November / December 1914. It means I have to rely on the handwritten addresses and we all know my grasp of German script.

I also tried several other sources on events in Louvain, but the only German troops I found mentioned were IR 162 and RID 24. Trying to follow up a Major von Manteffeul (a dead end), turned up this thread, which may throw up a few units. It certainly threw up a few arguments, by what I've read so far.

Wynne has papers at the Liddell Hart Centre, King' College London.

My thoughts on the kokades are that black and red in the centre can be ruled out. Saxon, Bavarian and even Bavarian Landwehr are in the frame.

Phil

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Trajan, you could be putting Mick out of a job at this rate.

Mick, I think I owe you a beverage next time we meet.

I have started going over the Liege Feldpost cards again, but only managed to get through about a hundred last night and haven't collated them yet. The early ones are not easy as the franking system doesn't appear to have got established until about November / December 1914. It means I have to rely on the handwritten addresses and we all know my grasp of German script.

I also tried several other sources on events in Louvain, but the only German troops I found mentioned were IR 162 and RID 24. Trying to follow up a Major von Manteffeul (a dead end), turned up this thread, which may throw up a few units. It certainly threw up a few arguments, by what I've read so far.

Wynne has papers at the Liddell Hart Centre, King' College London.

My thoughts on the kokades are that black and red in the centre can be ruled out. Saxon, Bavarian and even Bavarian Landwehr are in the frame.

Phil

Well I have done the same thing to a Drake Goodman photo (that shows one of the guards) and sourced from here:https://www.flickr.com/photos/drakegoodman/6556707883/in/photostream/

post-70679-0-31050100-1402786607_thumb.j

As you can see, now we have a hint of a white centre in the kokade. However, I must point out that if you click on the Drake Goodman link and then hit the right arrow key, there is another image, this time just three men. When I did the same to that image, I got a dark dot in the centre of the kokade. I did find another image not from that site but another site. I came across it round about the same time as the thread was locked. Unfortunately the source identifier that is banded across the image - the site seems to be inaccessible at the moment. These might be more easily identifiable from their Pickles:

post-70679-0-77590100-1402786886_thumb.j

EDIT: LOOK AT THE GUY AT THE BOTTOM (FRONT ROW) SECOND IN ON THE RIGHT (AS YOU LOOK AT THE PICTURE) IS THAT HIM AGAIN???

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Nice work guys on the translations. Sorry I'm not much use at least I have another word in my vocabulary (Schloss)! Before I do anything else on uniforms, I will try and piece the bits of translations dotted around in the last few posts together from the Berliner Tageblat for 22 and 26 September and add them to the Word doc for newspaper articles.

Phil, I have another book to look at yet about the German forces in Belgium 1914 but I thought I would try and work my way through my Herman Otto leads first. I have no idea where the Liddel Hart centre is and whether his papers would be accessible. Are they available online? They would make interesting reading I'm sure.

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Is this now the complete and correct translation for the Berliner Tageblat for 26 September? Also, I can't work out what the translation for the 22 September should read? Can someone write that one out for me in full please & thank you

'Berliner Tageblatt - 26 September 1914

Major Yate's Funeral

(Telegraph from our correspondents)

Torgau, 25 September

Yesterday, in the cemetery of the village Martinskirchen at Mühlenberg, the burial took place quietly of the English Mayor Yate, who escaped on Saturday from Torgau, and who cut his throat upon capture in the vicinity of the village of Martinskirchen. His English comrades sent a large floral wreath there. In the earlier report it was stated that Yate was found to be in possession of a note written in a different hand, indicating the walking/marching route from Torgau to Dresden, which seemed to suggest that another person had had a hand in the venture. That is not correct: the place names, one of which was wrong, were in fact written in Latin printed characters, as is the convention in the British Army for proper names.'

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