seaforth78 Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 SS, Why would you think that Major Yate merited being such a special prisoner that the Germans would go to such lengths to make a story out of him? He wasn't the only field officer captured that day and besides his VC recommendation wasn't even put in yet, so I am wondering if you are letting your idea of him being a VC winner before the capture make it in your mind that the Germans would make a Yate a special case? I obviously can't prove when this photo was exactly taken, but it wasn't in Germany I'll bet and still within France. Remember that he didn't just get evacuated out of the war zone with lightening speed like a Vietnam era movie to have the Germans make an example of him. And being a man of Yate's character, I don't think he would have willfully been at the beck and call of the Germans to put on/or take off his uniform like a slave; you misunderstand his character and his subsequent death proves this; so I don't know what your point is about the photo. I researched this man at length for over a year, read some very pertinent information on him and feel I got to know Yate's thoughts, though 100 years on. I just wish you would take the efforts that others here like Trajan and Seaforths and others to research a bit more. I am not really interested in what unit or division or corps faced 2/KOYLI that day, I realise the Germans in the photo with the odd Frenchman in the background clearly shows these are Out of the Line troops tasked to take the POW's to Germany. By this point the Germans already had a quarter of France under them with its extensive railways. So what's the big deal mate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 I had these down as Bavarian troops from the start (which I did indicate in post #4) so I am not going to disagree with what your saying. Essentially, I do value others opinions. This photo is particularly intriguing as I believe it shows possibly Bavarian troops equipped with the Gewehr 88 rifle (note bolt, magazine & side-mounted bayonet) And the bayonet is a short, knife style weapon which I think can only be the S71/84 model, which would fit the Gew 88, but which was only still in Bavarian service. Hi S>S> I see where you are coming from and going to, but as we are all pretty much agreed (I think!) that these are reserve troops - the pre-1911 blouses, the cartridge cases - then is there not at least a possibility that they might be other than Bavarian and were supplied with what was available - Gew 88 and S.71/84 bayonets? After all, as you well know many of these reserve units had even older rifles and S.71 bayonets! In other words, and I say this with all due respect, you appear to be working from the assumption that they have to be Bavarian purely on the grounds that they have S.71/84 bayonets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 Actually some very interesting points in there S78 - I wonder if he was the highest ranking officer there at the time and the Germans wanted to show off their prize in the press. We know he was brave and gallant but he also feared being beaten to a pulp. He wanted to be in control of his destiny and to some extent he was - later. He might have given away his fluency in German. I have no doubt that he would have been interrogated after capture. There is also the point of the German units capturing the POWs being responsible for them at a camp in their area of Germany. However, the troops used to guard and transport them en-route across country may have been employed from a number of different sources. Or, they may have changed hands in terms of those guarding them, as they travelled at various points in the journey. I don't think the photograph was taken at a camp but I don't think it was taken after capture either. Along their journey they were subjected to extreme ridicule and cruelty both in travelling and at the stops they made along the way. Body language again, the man on the right of him isn't looking at him or the camera. His head is facing down as though he wants nothing to do with what is happening. He seems ashamed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 I still think that the bottom cockade might hold an answer (and note, incidentally, that it is larger than the national cockade). As far as I can determine, although knowing of SS's penchant for research he might have already done this, the state/city cockades in use in WW1 were: Preußen: black - whiteBayern: white - blueSachsen: white - greenBaden: yellow - redHessen: white - redMecklenburg-Schwerin: blue - yellow - redMecklenburg-Strelitz: blue - yellow - redOldenburg: blue - redSachsen-Weimar-Eisenach: green - yellow - blackBraunschweig: blue - yellowAnhalt: greenSachsen-Anhalt: green - whiteSachsen-Coburg-Gotha: green - whiteSachsen-Meiningen: green - whiteLippe: yellow - redSchaumburg-Lippe: white - red - blueWaldeck: yellow - red - blackSchwarzburg-Rudolstadt: blue - whiteSchwarzburg-Sondershausen: white - blueReuß: yellow - red - blackBremen: white - redHanseatic League (Hamburg and Lübeck): white with red cross If you look carefully at the guy on the right and the one at the rear on the left there is the faintest hint that it might be a Hanseatic League one, white with red cross - but that could well be my imagination! The strongest possibilities would see to be (apart from that one) Bavaria, Saxony, Hessen, Bremen and Baden, as these all lack a solid coloured circle at the centre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 5 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 5 May , 2014 OK then I'm sorry that I raised the topic at all. It seems like this has been done to death and everyone knows exactly what happened. So apparently I'd better get back to research then. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 Cockade colours: I suppose it is understood that, with the ortho film in widespread use at the time, the red orange yellow end of the spectrum would usually show very dark indeed, that green would be a middling grey, and the blue end unexpectedly pale. If this is news, search for orthochromatic or ortho on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 Here we go - you'll have to take my word on it for now on this previously unpublished photograph, but this was taken in Strassburg in 1914, and shows a Landsturm man with what I think is a S 71/84; given the location and the man's unit then it is highly unlikely that he is a member of a Bavarian unit! Of course, he is wearing the oilskin peaked cap not a feldmutze, but my point is that you cannot assume that because the men in the Yates' photograph have S,71.84 bayonets then they must be Bavarian. I could add some more photographs to make the point, but as you have assured us you have done much of the basic research then I will just post this unpublished photograph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 OK then I'm sorry that I raised the topic at all. It seems like this has been done to death and everyone knows exactly what happened. So apparently I'd better get back to research then. Cheers, S>S No, no no! Wrong attitude! It is always good to have a devil's advocate around - that is how we improve our knowledge! Cockade colours: I suppose it is understood that, with the ortho film in widespread use at the time, the red orange yellow end of the spectrum would usually show very dark indeed, that green would be a middling grey, and the blue end unexpectedly pale. If this is news, search for orthochromatic or ortho on this forum. Thanks for that timely reminder Grumpy! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 For what it's worth, the topic was well worth raising from another angle. The focus being the content of the photograph alone and what it holds. However, I have found in my own research many conflicts of evidence. Uniforms and equipment seem to be particularly unsafe ground in research. Unless of course you can say that it couldn't be there because it was not yet invented. And uniforms, you need particularly clear images of certain parts of the uniform to make a positive identification. The time period makes this particularly difficult as Grumpy has pointed out the issues with colour on these photographs. Only last night, I was reading a diary of a POW being transported first across France, then Germany. Some of the stops they made were for days in some towns and they were taken off the trains. Don't be sorry you started it...it makes you sound like a petulant child! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 Don't be sorry you started it...it makes you sound like a petulant child! Naughty naughty!!! But SS, as you tagged this for Gew. 88, then just in case you don't know of this site, it's well worth a look at! https://www.flickr.com/groups/commissionrifle/discuss/72157632154994305/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 Naughty naughty!!! But SS, as you tagged this for Gew. 88, then just in case you don't know of this site, it's well worth a look at! https://www.flickr.com/groups/commissionrifle/discuss/72157632154994305/ Aaaw I'm not trying to be naughty. If people don't post because they think their research will be challenged - that's not a good thing. It is hard to work away at something sometimes for weeks and even months and reach a conclusion only find it isn't what you thought - not as cut and dried as you thought you had it. I have to be able to take on and accommodate new information or different theories otherwise I would get no further forward. Sometimes, I find putting things on the forum and having people pick holes in it moves things on quicker or into a different direction I hadn't considered before. My apologies - I was just trying to make light of what I thought was becoming a little tense and it was not intended to add to it. If I was going to look at the photograph as being taken very shortly after capture, I would be looking at the Bde. and Div. diaries these sometimes give information as to which units are capturing prisoners from the opposing units. It is surprising what you find. The units are not lined up directly opposite each other. I would be looking also at the British Divisions either side to see if they were identifying German units. What you see as opposing on paper is not always what it appears on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 Aaaw I'm not trying to be naughty. If people don't post because they think their research will be challenged - that's not a good thing. It is hard to work away at something sometimes for weeks and even months and reach a conclusion only find it isn't what you thought - not as cut and dried as you thought you had it. I have to be able to take on and accommodate new information or different theories otherwise I would get no further forward. Sometimes, I find putting things on the forum and having people pick holes in it moves things on quicker or into a different direction I hadn't considered before. My apologies - I was just trying to make light of what I thought was becoming a little tense and it was not intended to add to it. If I was going to look at the photograph as being taken very shortly after capture, I would be looking at the Bde. and Div. diaries these sometimes give information as to which units are capturing prisoners from the opposing units. It is surprising what you find. The units are not lined up directly opposite each other. I would be looking also at the British Divisions either side to see if they were identifying German units. What you see as opposing on paper is not always what it appears on the ground. I know you are not being 'naughty, naughty' really! Just a tease about your remark regarding my oft-times sparring partner! But yes, a lowering of tension is required... Being a review editor for various journals connected to my profession and also a frequent article writer myself in my field I know just how hard it is to sometimes have to accept that what seemed a good idea just don't work in practice. But as you say, throwing our ideas out for others to dissect and assess is the best and only way to improve overall knowledge, and so we come to your excellent suggestion that a look at the diaries might be informative - or not as the case might be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 I think I might have a map which I will check later when I get onto my PC that has units and positions on it for that time. On the ground particularly in attack, I have read accounts where they are processing prisoners from one unit at the start of the attack and from another unit later on. The lines in attacks that were taken were not always straight ahead but oblique. They might cross the path of one unit and into the path of another. Or might hit a line and enfilade along it before taking the attack forward. However, the map might give an indication of the units either side on both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 I hope this is readable but if not, I can post a better quality version via the bucket. This is dated 26 Aug 1914 so on paper a general idea of who was in what area at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 5 May , 2014 Share Posted 5 May , 2014 That map is great Seaforths, wish I had it when writing my essay as it really gives me a clearer idea of the debacle that day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 6 May , 2014 Share Posted 6 May , 2014 Just looked at this thread. Given that the photo is almost certainly "manufactured" for propaganda purposes and there is no guarantee that the troops surrounding the unfortunate Major had anything to do with his capture or even his detention (and could merely be some members of a 3rd line unit who happened to be handy when the photo was arranged, whenever or wherever that was) it seems a somewhat sterile exercise try to read anything meaningful out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 May , 2014 Share Posted 6 May , 2014 ... it seems a somewhat sterile exercise try to read anything meaningful out of it. Up to a point, centurion, the point being that (as has been argued above and as you note) the bayonets, rifles, and the uniforms of the 'guards' do strongly suggest rear echelon soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 6 May , 2014 Share Posted 6 May , 2014 The German units facing KOYLI are confirmed here, as posted by Peteblue at post nbr 12 : http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=197372&hl= I do not know his source - it might be the same map for he doesn't say but he doesn't think the uniform in the photograph is that of those units. nor the weaponry which is an aspect SS is exploring. As you have pointed out Centurion, it could have been staged anywhere but not I feel, at his immediate capture nor taken with his initial captors. I don't know where or when this photograph first appeared in British press and whether it appeared in German press first. However, the text accompanying the photograph is wild speculation on the part of the press (some things never change). He was initially reported as KIA not wounded. This changed when his wife received correspondence from him as a POW and was able to inform the authorities of this. I suspect it will remain a mystery as to where the photograph was taken but perhaps where it wasn't taken can be eliminated. The possibility of French presence in the photograph for example. I don't think Yate was the most senior officer captured in the action. I believe Lt. Col. Bond was also captured. Was Yate a random choice? Or, was he specifically selected for a reason? He was not captured alone. So why was he photographed alone? Of course, there may have been other photographs taken of other prisoners captured at the time and they chose to release this one specifically. Now I will step into territory that I expect people have wondered but not asked regarding Yate. There is the question of his V.C. Awarded for leading a charge that seems may never have happened. I am not questioning his bravery nor that his intention was to lead a charge. But if the charge never occurred...would that/should that affect the award? The photograph raises so many questions in so many areas, I think it is worth revisiting with fresh input and theories to be explored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 6 May , 2014 Share Posted 6 May , 2014 In the Regimental History, RC Bond, Yate's CO, witness of Yate's capture and writer of the book itself and later fellow inmate at the camp at Torgau, must have been the only one to have submitted the recommendation of the VC. But as you so rightly point out Seaforths, how did the gazette get it all wrong? Bond in the history specifically states that as Yate was readying his men for a final charge as everything around them was getting overun, he was taken from behind and overwhelmed. Not wounded, not killed, and no charge. So, why the VC? There. I said it. Major CAL Yate did not deserve the VC so why all the publicity back in 1914 about him? I never really understood this when other contemporary acts of the VC were well merited and supported. Not this one, though like I his character. He didn't deserve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 6 May , 2014 Share Posted 6 May , 2014 I'm not so sure Bond was, as a POW himself, in a position to recommend him for the V.C. or was he? It is laid down somewhere, possibly the Army Lists, the stipulations regarding awards for bravery and who can recommend, witnesses etc. I seem to have taken this off at a tangent but it is applicable to his capture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 May , 2014 Share Posted 6 May , 2014 Seaforths, One modern account for the archive, just in case you hadn't seen it - http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/main-topics/general-news/in-honour-of-the-yorkshire-vc-heroes-who-paid-the-ultimate-price-in-battle-1-6438809 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 6 May , 2014 Share Posted 6 May , 2014 Thanks for the link. I wonder but doubt if there are records of his recommendation for bravery his V.C. and the circumstances were witnessed and still survive? I have seen an instance (but later in the war) where the evidence was recorded in the Brigade diary and further evidence was called for to substantiate the first lot of evidence which was duly submitted and recorded with a successful outcome for the individual concerned. It might have been the case that the V.C. award came under closer scrutiny later in the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 May , 2014 Share Posted 6 May , 2014 ... I don't know where or when this photograph first appeared in British press and whether it appeared in German press first. However, the text accompanying the photograph is wild speculation on the part of the press (some things never change). He was initially reported as KIA not wounded. This changed when his wife received correspondence from him as a POW and was able to inform the authorities of this. ... The photograph raises so many questions in so many areas, I think it is worth revisiting with fresh input and theories to be explored. That is a very interesting point - who did first publish it and where? Google no help there - keeps bringing me back to GWF! I did, however, find another map of the action, which again you probably know of, but being a bit of a braces and belt man, always best to certain! It's at http://www.britishbattles.com/firstww/battle-le-cateau.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 6 May , 2014 Share Posted 6 May , 2014 he appears as killed TIMES 3.Sep from a report 1 Sep 1914 unofficially POW reported 20 and 21st Sep/ HM the Q visits his grave report 4 Nov 2004. Cannot find VC citation LG though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 6 May , 2014 Admin Share Posted 6 May , 2014 His VC citation is pretty brief: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28985/supplement/9957 Also supposed to have been MiD in Sir John French's Despatch of 8th October 1914. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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