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Capture of Major Yate II


seaforths
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I would be interested to know what Paul Oldfield says on Holmes. According to Gliddon, Holmes was with A Company who did receive the order to retire.

I used to correspond with Paul way back in 2002-3 on the VC forum and that's where I received from information on Yate and enlightened me on the suicide incident which he believed. Thank you for reminding of Paul. He was very good in helping me with what he had back then when starting my research on Yate though he was not my focal research for my doctorate then (it was another Japanese language officer, Captain MD Kennedy OBE, 2nd Scottish Rifles.)

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  • 11 months later...

I'm not sure if this has been brought up on any of the Yate threads on this forum, but this appears to be newsreel footage of Yate with his captors -there's a fleeting glimpse at 14.24 in this documentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcUaNw4XZK0

Yate seen from behind, but undoubtedly the same Germans from the photo in the initial post on this thread.

All the best

Paul.

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I'm not sure if this has been brought up on any of the Yate threads on this forum, but this appears to be newsreel footage of Yate with his captors -there's a fleeting glimpse at 14.24 in this documentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcUaNw4XZK0

Yate seen from behind, but undoubtedly the same Germans from the photo in the initial post on this thread.

All the best

Paul.

My golly gosh - so it is! No doubt about it! In an immediately preceding frame is a pickelhaube with a '23' on it - if this is part of the same sequence, then that might help tie it down. Is the soldier with the matronly looking lady in the scenes right before Yate the same as in the Yate shot?

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The chap on the extreme left at 14:24-25 in the film - distinctive long nose and moustache - is wearing a Prussian centenary medal and is the same chap who appears on the right of a photograph taken at Liege with one of his colleagues and a seated officer, and the seated officer in that photograph is shown with to his his left our moustachioed 'hero' with the wonky tunic button who appears in the Yate capture photograph and at 14:24-25 in the film

post-69449-0-69629700-1454066074_thumb.j post-69449-0-25542000-1454066181_thumb.j post-69449-0-68808900-1454066594_thumb.j

(The first two photographs were both downloaded from the original and now locked Yate thread, but seem to have gone now. The second of the two is a Drake Goodman photograph, the first is also, I believe, but if not, I would greatly appreciate being corrected. The third photograph is in the public domain)

Trajan

P.B., that is incredibly well-spotted by you, and many thanks for posting it! The Seaforths will be even more pleased than me.

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The Seaforths may explode.

With delight! And coming so soon after Burns' night as well... Joy unfounded, perhaps?

But, on a serious note. I wonder if the 'Capture' photograph is a still from the film? Note that in the film Yate has his back turned but seems to me to be holding something in his hand, which he certainly is in the 'Capture' photograph. I also noticed (going back a bit before to the matronly matron) that there were other probable POW's in the background, while the presence of those volunteer medics implies somewhere well behind the lines. So, if this is all one film, then along with the No. 23 pickelhaube chappie it might just help narrow locations down for the thing. Liege??? My knowledge of the area around Le Cateau and troop movements in the aftermath is abysmal...

OK, now to technical stuff... Never payed with Youtube, but is there a way to do a slide-by-slide analysis?

Trajan

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GET IN!!!! WELL DONE!

Sorry, I've been on leave. One of my furrry 4 paws lost her battle with cancer on Monday and has been quite poorly over the last two weeks and needed lots of nursing.

Thank you very much for posting it and I agree, it is most definitely him! What an amazing find and very well spotted. As Trajan has already put up the mugshots the film and photographs together are evidence enough to I.D. him from behind.

The regiment that captured him was from Torgau but was Thuringian. Also, I discovered last week while dabbling that there appeared to also be an Uhlan unit based there, also Thuringian and they were likely mobilised at the start of the war too. That kind of helped me reconcile why so many statements etc. mentioned wounded/drunk Uhlans on the Torgau train. I think it is quite likely that the photograph was taken just before/after that film footage and the location, I think might be Mons. I'll have a play around tonight and try to extract a series of stills. Hopefully decent enough quality to take a closer look at his German friends.

I also found another statement from an officer that kind of runs in with that piece of footage. He said that the German soldiers with cameras were all over the place, practically mobbing prisoners to take their photographs which duly appeared in the newspapers in Germany. He said he made it as difficult as possible for them to get a photograph of him by turning his back on them constantly. Obviously, the novelty hadn't worn off by 1917 when they photographed my granddad and his comrades after capture!

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GET IN!!!! WELL DONE!

Indeed, indeed, 'O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!', and more than full marks (if such a thing is possible, as in 150%!) to PB for being so keen- and mentally sighted as to see it and make the connection! Hats' off, sire!

Seaforths - looking forward to that analysis - but is it all one film? The chappies and the matronly matron are all members of the voluntary medical organisation and were supposed to be well out of active firing areas - although I have seen a photograph of one of these men next to an entrenched field piece. Lots of photographers around - interesting! I can see why Yate turned his back... But in the infamous one, Yate is standing still, which means posing, doesn't it, long enough for the exposure? Or still from a film??? Mons? Or Liege? I haven't looked up the Picklehaube man from Inf,Reg.23, but the Uhlan sounds intriguing! Anyway, looking forward to closer analysis from what you have - if nothing else to find out where our friend with the wonky button came from!

Julian

PS: Sorry about the cat... :(

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Thanks Trajan, she's at peace now.

I have cropped the footage down to the relevant few seconds piece we need and working through it at the moment frame by frame. I think we are looking at separate film footage. I picked up a couple of transitions in his video editing and cropped to those. That has left me analysing more than one piece that is not divided by a transition. I'm in the process of capturing stills by working through it. At that level, you can see what poor condition the film survived in and it is very flawed. The flaws are difficult to spot in running film but in stills they are there in plenty. Nevertheless, we might end up with some workable pieces. Once I've finished capturing stills, I'll have a digital dabble with them and see if I can improve them before posting them up. I believe I can already identify some of our German friends from the photographs you put up a couple of posts back. - not just the chap with the odd button.

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As well as mucking about with stills, I've edited the clips down into what I believe are two relevant pieces. I've split the clips and created slows but when I apply slow to the first clip, it's docking the last frame. I think that before the documentary maker got his hands on the films, they had been through their own crude and early edit. Possibly split and spliced together. Either that or, the cameraman stopped filming and then resumed filming again. The reason for this thought is that the reel appears to have been creased when wound and stored. If you look at the last/first frames, you can see the crease appearing in both. If this is down to early editing etc, it does not necessarily follow that these two pieces are related at all in terms of time & location:

New%20Movie%205.Movie_Snapshot_zps9fdtp4 New%20Movie.Movie_Snapshot_zpshdormfbl.j

You can also see that the quality of many stills is not good. I will attempt to get the video clips up but might have to post via links :)

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I'm hoping this will work. I'm not having much luck via photobucket...It seems that I have no option but to use links.When I tried to run it via photobucket the same as I sometimes post images, I received a forum message that this type of image extension was now allowed. I'm trying now via OneDrive...First two links show at normal speed and then slow motion. The 3rd and 4th link likewise with the other piece. You should also be able to download from those links to watch off line...

<iframe src="https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=8DF1E713C2B47BF5&resid=8DF1E713C2B47BF5%21735&authkey=AA2DdFjyZos3e0E"width="320" height="240" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe src="https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=8DF1E713C2B47BF5&resid=8DF1E713C2B47BF5%21737&authkey=AN55N7w-OPX8ps4"width="320" height="240" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe src="https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=8DF1E713C2B47BF5&resid=8DF1E713C2B47BF5%21739&authkey=ADK2ZUU2iWrSb_E"width="320" height="240" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe src="https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=8DF1E713C2B47BF5&resid=8DF1E713C2B47BF5%21738&authkey=AHXE9fP43uzurog"width="320" height="240" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Any thoughts on these two particular clips being related???

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Thanks Trajan, she's at peace now.

I have cropped the footage down to the relevant few seconds piece we need and working through it at the moment frame by frame. I think we are looking at separate film footage. I picked up a couple of transitions in his video editing and cropped to those. That has left me analysing more than one piece that is not divided by a transition. I'm in the process of capturing stills by working through it. At that level, you can see what poor condition the film survived in and it is very flawed. The flaws are difficult to spot in running film but in stills they are there in plenty. Nevertheless, we might end up with some workable pieces. Once I've finished capturing stills, I'll have a digital dabble with them and see if I can improve them before posting them up. I believe I can already identify some of our German friends from the photographs you put up a couple of posts back. - not just the chap with the odd button.

I'm sorry.....RIP in peace Maya....

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The chap on the extreme left at 14:24-25 in the film - distinctive long nose and moustache - is wearing a Prussian centenary medal and is the same chap who appears on the right of a photograph taken at Liege with one of his colleagues and a seated officer, and the seated officer in that photograph is shown with to his his left our moustachioed 'hero' with the wonky tunic button who appears in the Yate capture photograph and at 14:24-25 in the film

attachicon.gifBavarians in Liege1.JPG attachicon.gifBavarians in Liege2A.JPG attachicon.gifbavarians in liege major yateA.JPG

(The first two photographs were both downloaded from the original and now locked Yate thread, but seem to have gone now. The second of the two is a Drake Goodman photograph, the first is also, I believe, but if not, I would greatly appreciate being corrected. The third photograph is in the public domain)

Trajan

P.B., that is incredibly well-spotted by you, and many thanks for posting it! The Seaforths will be even more pleased than me.

The Seaforths may explode.

I'm not sure if this has been brought up on any of the Yate threads on this forum, but this appears to be newsreel footage of Yate with his captors -there's a fleeting glimpse at 14.24 in this documentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcUaNw4XZK0

Yate seen from behind, but undoubtedly the same Germans from the photo in the initial post on this thread.

All the best

Paul.

God bless you Paul, you made us Seaforths's extremely happy and I am just delighted that you were able to unearth this heavenly gift for all of us to see and appreciate. I can't thank you enough!

Out of interest, and even though Yate's back is to us, it seems he's on good terms with his captors and being a German speaker no doubt helped things in great contrast to his well known photograph in a sulking mood. Oh how God I wished we could get a front view of him. Interestingly, the Germans, as confirmed in his capture photo, shows him with his Christmas tree complete with bios. Shabash Paul!

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The chap on the extreme left at 14:24-25 in the film - distinctive long nose and moustache - is wearing a Prussian centenary medal and is the same chap who appears on the right of a photograph taken at Liege with one of his colleagues and a seated officer, and the seated officer in that photograph is shown with to his his left our moustachioed 'hero' with the wonky tunic button who appears in the Yate capture photograph and at 14:24-25 in the film

attachicon.gifBavarians in Liege1.JPG attachicon.gifBavarians in Liege2A.JPG attachicon.gifbavarians in liege major yateA.JPG

(The first two photographs were both downloaded from the original and now locked Yate thread, but seem to have gone now. The second of the two is a Drake Goodman photograph, the first is also, I believe, but if not, I would greatly appreciate being corrected. The third photograph is in the public domain)

Trajan

P.B., that is incredibly well-spotted by you, and many thanks for posting it! The Seaforths will be even more pleased than me.

Well done Trajan with your extraordinary detective work! My word, that mustachioed chap seems to have been everywhere hadn't he?? I wonder if Yate is holding a field cup to drink from.....He's has his bios under his arm, why here in this situation is very odd.....

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I'm sorry.....RIP in peace Maya....

Thank you. It was a rough few weeks...I had to make the call, when the time was right for her and her twinnie will look after her now. Thanks for the comments and your return to the thread.

Trajan's earlier comments on Red Cross and location are interesting. Going back much earlier, I posted the routes of transit for many of the officers. A march to Cambrai or Mons seemed to be what was happening. Liege only mentioned as being in ruins as their trains passed through. There were many Red Cross operating of different nationalities in Belgium at the time. Some of the Belgian Red Cross were arrested along with a British Red Cross man and accused of being spies. The British man was sent to Torgau along with the British Officers. In fact, he wrote a book about his experiences. The German Red Cross had a different way of working as compared to the British and indeed seem to be seen as part of their army and their men working at the front lines. The same German Officer wore two hats. He was in charge of the fate and negotiating terms with regard to the treatment of POWs and he also headed operations with regard to German Red Cross. He represented the German interests at the Red Cross conferences that took place during the war and at the conferences regarding POWs where the British were represented by the Foreign Office he was there again, heading the German negotiations.

I'm still pondering on whether the two clips are related. That the crease at the bottom of the final frame on the first clip appears on the first frame of the one that follows could have been down to the reasons I stated earlier. However, I am also looking closely at this man and trying to improve on these images:

post-70679-0-63357300-1454924968_thumb.j post-70679-0-73658000-1454925005_thumb.j

Apologies for the poor quality but a quick crop on the iPad...is it the same man? Are they different men but the same unit? In the first clip, his epaulettes are not rolled back...just a few of my thoughts.

Edit: typo corrected

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I'm hoping this will work. I'm not having much luck via photobucket...Any thoughts on these two particular clips being related???

God bless you Paul, you made us Seaforths's extremely happy and I am just delighted that you were able to unearth this heavenly gift for all of us to see and appreciate. I can't thank you enough!

Out of interest, and even though Yate's back is to us, it seems he's on good terms with his captors and being a German speaker no doubt helped things in great contrast to his well known photograph in a sulking mood. Oh how God I wished we could get a front view of him. Interestingly, the Germans, as confirmed in his capture photo, shows him with his Christmas tree complete with bios. Shabash Paul!

I'm still pondering on whether the two clips are related. That the crease at the bottom of the final frame on the first clip appears on the first frame of the one that follows could have been down to the reasons I stated earlier. However, I am also looking closely at this man and trying to improve on these images: ... Apologies for the poor quality but a quick crop on the iPad...is it the same man? Are they different men but the same unit? In the first clip, his epaulettes are not rolled back...just a few of my thoughts.

Seaforths,

That's some brilliant editing - thanks!

I can see the problems you are having - cutting and splicing, plus the camera man having to wind up again and again... One reason I thought matron might be connected with the Yate section was the presence of those chappies in the dark uniforms and forage caps in the background - aren't the POW's also? But is so, which/what army? Also, the pickelhaube chappie - I think it is 29: if so, then with the 16th Division, and according to Wiki German, "24.08.1914 - 29.08.1914: Schlacht an der Maas"...

Seaforth 78: Looking back at the film, though, I do think he is trying to avoid being filmed - but somebody got a photograph at the same time. Perhaps that's why he turned around when the film chappie came along? Either way (joke) I don't think we can identify the location from the roof line/windows/cobbles/whatever (delete as appropriate) in this film clip!

Wouldn't swear to those two guys being the same...

Julian

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Seaforths,

That's some brilliant editing - thanks!

I can see the problems you are having - cutting and splicing, plus the camera man having to wind up again and again... One reason I thought matron might be connected with the Yate section was the presence of those chappies in the dark uniforms and forage caps in the background - aren't the POW's also? But is so, which/what army? Also, the pickelhaube chappie - I think it is 29: if so, then with the 16th Division, and according to Wiki German, "24.08.1914 - 29.08.1914: Schlacht an der Maas"...

Seaforth 78: Looking back at the film, though, I do think he is trying to avoid being filmed - but somebody got a photograph at the same time. Perhaps that's why he turned around when the film chappie came along? Either way (joke) I don't think we can identify the location from the roof line/windows/cobbles/whatever (delete as appropriate) in this film clip!

Wouldn't swear to those two guys being the same...

Julian

Yes, I spotted those other prisoners as well. It looks as though they are being rounded up to be put on trains. I'll be on the PC later to digitally b*gger about with the stills a bit more. Hopefully, I should have something worth posting than the poor copies above. Great that the pickelhaub guy is identifiable! It is also possible that there is more footage than we have seen as they may have not used all of the footage when they made the documentary. I'm guessing that the original footage must have been from a German archive???

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Seaforth 78: Looking back at the film, though, I do think he is trying to avoid being filmed - but somebody got a photograph at the same time. Perhaps that's why he turned around when the film chappie came along? Either way (joke) I don't think we can identify the location from the roof line/windows/cobbles/whatever (delete as appropriate) in this film clip!

Julian

Looking again closely at both segments done by Seaforths I would have to agree that Yate is studiously trying to avoid the camera even with the addition of roof line/windows/cobbles! Interestingly, as follows custom in the German Army, the touching of an officer was forbidding. See how Bader was treated in the 2nd War when the he was wondering why the Germans just didn't bodily throw him into his cell when he gave them a hard time, remarking how the camp commandant told him that it was forbidden to do that, even to a foreign officer prisoner.

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What a nightmare these images are! The download from youtube - the best I could get was mpeg4 which is still very much compressed. The stills I have captured are therefore at quite a low resolution and only between 100 to 200kb. I haven't managed anything yet worth saving to post. Oh sure, I can improve on the overall image and take out quite a lot of the flaws which make them more pleasing to the eye but it does nothing whatsoever to improve the detail on the uniforms. I'm turning in for the night - sulking :(

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Many thanks for the positive comments, gents....spotting this obscure bit of footage is proof positive that I really do need to get out more!

I can't add much more to this debate, but at a tangent I think there's an interesting side issue about the way WWI soldiers reacted to being caught on film -there's an interesting piece by Roger Smithers of the IWM in the book "Contested Objects" about relatives recognising soldiers in footage shown during the war which is well worth tracking down. It's also interesting to see prisoners of war being filmed and some of them hiding their faces behind helmets, their hands and so on, clearly ashamed at having gone into captivity.

Let's see how far we can get with this clip -it's turning into the forum's equivalent of the Zapruder movie....

All the best

Paul.

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Many thanks for the positive comments, gents....spotting this obscure bit of footage is proof positive that I really do need to get out more! ...

Not at all Paul! Your exceedingly keen observation has helped destroy some much vaunted theses as well as providing an incredible insight into those early days of the GW. Yes, in many ways, it has raised many more questions that add to the mystery... And it does, indeed, help confirm that the familiar 'snatched' shot of Yate was just that. There again, I do wonder, how it was that you spotted WHO it was - you must be more familiar with the Yate saga than you let on to!

Julian

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Not at all Paul! Your exceedingly keen observation has helped destroy some much vaunted theses as well as providing an incredible insight into those early days of the GW. Yes, in many ways, it has raised many more questions that add to the mystery... And it does, indeed, help confirm that the familiar 'snatched' shot of Yate was just that. There again, I do wonder, how it was that you spotted WHO it was - you must be more familiar with the Yate saga than you let on to!

Julian

Hear hear.....

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In reality I know very little about Yate and his capture...in true anorak style, the thing that always intrigued me about the images of Yate were the fact that he appeared to have most of his personal equipment still with him despite not having been immediately captured prior to the photos/film being taken, and that's what made the film clip memorable.

It's an intriguing question -did respect for an officer's personal property (as his belt, cross straps, map case, etc were) overtake both a natural desire that soldiers have to relieve captured enemies of their property and the sound military principle of taking anything from a captive that either might be of intelligence value or (like a map, for example) be useful if to them if they escaped (like a compass or watch)?

More questions than answers....

All the best

Paul.

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