Six of seven brothers of the AIF died overseas- really?

[1st AIF]

A national story in the main newspapers here on Anzac Day tells of 7 brothers enlisting in the AIF in WW1 and only one came back. Six perished on active service.

I think this story needs further investigation. Searching the records of the National Archives and War Memorial websites show that perhaps four of the brothers all came from different towns and states and had different Next of Kin. 4633 Herbert Smith was from Ballarat son of Ellen, the only 3879 Frederick Smith to die with the 32nd Bn on 18 June 1918 was from Hectorville SA son of Virginia. 22479 Albert Smith was from Skipton Vic son of George and the only Clarence Leslie Smith (7051) to serve with the 26th Bn (a Qld/Tas battalion) returned to Australia. Mr Fox needs to clarify the accuracy of this story.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/anzac-centenary/six-of-seven-sons-of-frederick-and-maggie-smith-died-in-ww1/story-fnmeodw6-1226895364091

I may be wrong and I hope I am. However stories like this need to have their credentials established before they become part of accepted history.

Len

[Waddell]

The subtle(?) advertising within that story also worries me Len.

Scott

[fjwiltshire]

I'm with you on this one, Len. Never let facts get in the way of a good tabloid story.

Edited 25 April , 2014 by Frank W

[Auimfo]

You're absolutely correct Len. I've also done a bit of hunting and found the following about each of the "brothers" (children of Frederick and Margaret of Sth Aust).

Herbert William SMITH - The only person to be killed by this name was the son of Herbert/Ellen from Bathurst NSW. No other soldier with a similar name fits the bill either. Born in 1886, there was no reason to take an assumed age.

Alfred Ernest SMITH - The only soldier to be killed by this name was the son of George from Skipton Vic. No other soldier with a similar name fits the bill either. Supposedly a twin of Herbert, he was therefore also born in 1886 (although I can't find a birth record?).

Frederick Walter SMITH - The only person to be killed by this name was the son of Alexander/Emily from Windsor NSW. The correct soldier may be 3548 Private, 1st Light Horse - but he survived the war. There was a chap by this name died in Sth Aust between 1926-30.

Clarence Leslie SMITH - The only MM winner by this name was the son of John/Eliza from Strathpine, Qld. The correct soldier is 6588 Private, 10th Battalion who survived the war (no MM). He died Sth Aust in 1970.

Errol Victor SMITH - No soldier by this name and if he did enlist using an assumed name he wasn't killed. He married in Sth Aust in Feb 1918 and died there in 1950.

Aubrey Lyall SMITH - No soldier by this name and if he did enlist using an assumed name he wasn't killed. He married in Sth Aust in Feb 1927 and died there in 1964.

Francis Hume SMITH - can find no birth, marriage, death or service record for this brother. A Francis SMITH died Sth Aust in 1923. He was supposedly the only one to survive the war.

Seems there are a few very big holes in the story!!! Even if a couple of the brothers had enlisted using assumed names, there's no way that six of the seven were killed.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[1st AIF]

Tim - thanks. My sister and I did a bit more hunting and we concur fully with your additional research. There are funeral notices in the SA newspapers in the 1950's about the ones that were meant to have been killed in WW1. This story is shot down in flames. I contacted Mr Fox and he phoned me back straight away. His version is the sons were farmers and were not meant to enlist as they were needed on the farm, so they travelled far and wide to join up. I pointed out that the Roll of Honour sheets were filled out by different parents as well which he attributed to poor army records. Sounds unbelievable to me. I don't think it was a deliberate attempt to spread a falsehood but rather a poor effort in establishing any facts. Having a link to a commercial activity makes it look bad.

However I think that there is clearly some corrupted family legend, coupled with some poor genealogy. A few of the grandmas brothers probably did go to war and a few may have been killed but the printed story bears no resemblance to the facts.

It just goes to show how important it is to verify the facts and not rely on wishful thinking.

I have also brought it to Newscorps attention. Interesting to see if they publish an amendment.

Len

[Murrough]

Not a unique story, a similiar story did the rounds in Ireland, see thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=129085&hl=+furey%20+brothers&page=3

[Loader]

That story was tangled up like a string of Christmas tree lights! Well done getting it sorted out. I agree no attempt to deceive there. Makes a good human interest story.

[Auimfo]

I wonder if Mr Fox could blame 'poor army records' with this one? Clarence was doing extremely well, having been killed in WW1 and then enlisting in WW2!!

http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=701235

And I'm not quite sure how he blames poor army records when I can find official birth records for all the men KIA and all are consistent with the Roll of Honour/Service Record details. They are not the children of Frederick and Margaret!!

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Auimfo]

And it's very odd that not a single one of the brothers rated a mention on the Yongala Memorial erected after the war!!

Cheers,

Tim L.

[frev]

Tim, Len and all...

I started to have a look into this last night - especially since I was interested in the brother (Francis Hume Smith) that was supposedly killed in a tram accident in 1923 - as I didn't yet have him in my Accidental Deaths Database.

But I too couldn't find any record of a Francis Hume Smith - nor a report on the tram accident in 1923.

However, it appeared that Herbert William Smith was actually the eldest brother - so I went in pursuit of him - and guess what - he did die in a tram accident - but it was in 1916 - and so far I haven't found anything to suggest that he served in the war before his death.

The details that I gathered before I got side-tracked:

Smith Family:

Children of Frederick SMITH (Milkman, Livery stable proprietor) & Maggie/Margaret Jane HUME – who married in Adelaide 10/4/1886

Frederick d.28/11/1927 Adelaide, SA, age 67 (Margaret still alive at this time)

Addresses: Yongala / Knoxville / 52 Dulwich Ave, Dulwich

1. Florence Hume b.10/10/1886 Rose Park (twin) – d.9/3/1887, age 5 mths

2. Herbert William b.10/10/1886 Rose Park (twin) – marr Loveday Myrtle PASCOE 27/7/1910 (2 children) – d.3/2/1916 Adelaide Hospital, age 29 (of Greenhill Rd, Knoxville) – a tramway conductor, he died after being crushed between 2 tram cars during a collision

1916 Tram accident: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/137106828

Son of Frederick: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/45364731

Widow & 2 children: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/59632724

Death notice, eldest son of F & M.A. [sic] Smith, late of Yongala: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/8687583

3. Frederick Walter b.18/11/1887 Norwood

4. Alfred Ernest b.18/11/1889 Norwood (parents indexed as Frederich SMITH & Margaret HUME)

5. Lottie Ellen b.1891 Yongala – marr Ernest Arthur HOOPER 2/7/1914 Adelaide

6. Clarence Leslie b.29/8/1893 Yongala, SA – served WW1 & WW2 – died 18/8/1970

WW1: http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/scripts/Imagine.asp?B=1767367

WW2: http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=701235

7. Errol Victor b.10/5/1895 Yongala – Brick carter – marr Sophia 23/2/1918 SA (3 children) – d.26/12/1950 SA

8. Aubrey Lyall b.17/8/1897 Yongala, SA – Labourer 1929 – d.26/2/1964 SA

Cheers, Frev

[Edited to fix up an incorrect date of marriage!]

[Auimfo]

Thanks Frev for the additional information. Huge gaps are certainly starting to appear in this story.

What we now have is only six brothers, four of whom were not killed at the war (although one was killed 'during' the war years).

Of the other two, there is no service records or Roll of Honour to confirm their part in the war.

Mr Fox statement to Len that the brothers were farmers required on the land and hence took off over great distances to enlist also has a ring of suspicion to it. There were thousands of farmers who enlisted without the need to run away to all parts of the country. When you look at the various occupations of Frederick and sons, it hardly suggests they were indispensable land workers....Milkman, Livery Stable proprietor, Tram Conductor, Brick Carter and Labourer.

Cheers,

Tim L.

P.S. Although he rightly doesn't make any specific claims about the Smith brothers and is in no way to blame for the gross errors in this story, I wonder if Dr Peter Stanley would approve of his name being used to 'substantiate' the story now the true facts are emerging?

[1st AIF]

Excellent investigative work! I just think it is important that fantastic popular stories don't become established into folklore unless they are fully substantiated. We see it all the time with WW1 photographs and films incorrectly captioned just because it makes for a good story. With the 100 years anniversaries upon us for the next 4 years we must make sure that the facts are at the surface and not popularism.

I suspect that this will be the last we hear of this story.

Tim - great photo of the Yongala memorial. ...and I don't think Dr Peter Stanley will be happy either.

Len

P.S. I am heading off to Lemnos next week if anyone wants some photos of any of the AIF boy's graves.

[Auimfo]

So Alfred Ernest SMITH was born 1889 at Norwood. Well I can confirm he never saw service in WW1 considering he died at Yongala of 'croupal diphtheria' at the age of 2yrs in 1892. So I'm not sure who the uniformed chap in Mr Fox's photo is?

Cheers,

Tim L.

[frev]

Frederick Walter SMITH - The only person to be killed by this name was the son of Alexander/Emily from Windsor NSW. The correct soldier may be 3548 Private, 1st Light Horse - but he survived the war. There was a chap by this name died in Sth Aust between 1926-30.

Tim - Pte/Tpr 3548 of the 1st LH is definitely the correct soldier.

He married Frances Hayward BURTON 1/5/1915 in Adelaide (Father listed as Frederick)

She died in Apr 1917 (he's noted as a Shop Assistant): http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/87439227

He then takes himself off to Sydney - enlists 17/5/1917 - Widower - Clerk - NOK: Father, Frederick of Dulwich Ave, Dulwich - there's also a letter from his mother (p.18 of SR): Mrs M.J. Smith of 52 Dulwich Ave, Dulwich (see my list of addresses in post #10.

Service Record: http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/scripts/Imagine.asp?B=1776437

As you also noted - he survived the war - RTA on the Leicestershire 23/12/1918 - 22/1/1919 - discharged in SA 13/8/1919

Still no farmer....!

Cheers, Frev

PS - Alfred Ernest must have died not long after the photo of the children was taken.....

[also note - that's 2 death notices now, where Margaret has been listed as M.A. (instead of M.J.) hmmm!?]

[Auimfo]

Now we can place the correct year of death alongside each of the brothers names and confirm them with official South Australian Death Registration numbers.

1. Herbert William: died 1916, (result of tram accident in Adelaide) Reg. No. 398/542

2. Frederick Walter: died 1926, (served WW1 and survived) Reg. No. 489/462

3. Alfred Ernest: died 1892, (of croupal diphtheria as a 2yr old) Reg. No. 203/359

4. Clarence Leslie: died 1970, (served in both WW1/WW2 and survived) Reg. No. 97A/6513

5. Errol Victor: died 1950, Reg. No. 763/46

6. Aubrey Lyall: died 1964, Reg. No. 970/1510

Which means that not a single one of the SMITH brothers was killed during WW1 due to war service as claimed by Chris FOX.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[rangram]

I found this forum earlier today and would like to reassure you that you are correct to be concerned about this article. I am a grandchild of Herbert William (Will) Smith and researched my family history a few years ago. http://users.adam.com.au/marcia/PI10.html#Herbert_William_Smith

Will did not go to war, but died following a tram accident in Adelaide in 1916. He left a widow who later re-married and two young sons.

My earlier research showed 8 children, two of whom died before WW1, Will, and 5 others who lived till after the war. Lottie I have since found died in 1990. Several of the children appear in the Adelaide press after the war (See Trove), mostly for less than appropriate behaviour, and their dates of death are available.

Until Friday I had not heard of an older son, Francis Hume. I have not been able to find any trace of him.

I have spoken to the editor of the article and Mr Fox who seems disinclined to give consideration to any possibility that he had had incorrect information from Lottie who would have been a quite old woman. He seemed not to want to upset older relatives. But it seems neither he nor the editor have done any original research to confirm the truth of the story.

I have also communicated with Prof Stanley who was in no way confirming the story, but rather agreed with me that there should be a retraction/correction. I will be contacting the editor again on Monday.

I am probably a relative of Mr Fox, but I knew nothing about him till Friday. I cannot comment on his motives.

[Auimfo]

Thank you 'rangram' for joining here and confirming our research and suspicions. It is disappointing that journalists and editors of national news companies cannot seem to check their facts about such an important story on such an important day.

I'm hoping that Chris Fox simply has no genealogical skills and is just relying on some misleading information supplied to him - even though it does seem a little bit coincidental.

And just for your family tree records, here's a photo of Alfred Ernest's grave marker at Yongala Cemetery which I obtained today.

Cheers,

Tim L.

P.S. If you need additional help with anything to convince the editor to make a retraction, leave me another post here.

[rangram]

Thanks, Tim

Elderly relatives can be a big help in genealogical research, but what they have to say needs to be supported by documentary evidence - obviously or so I thought. I met "Aunty Lottie" two or three times in the early 50s when I was a child: I remembered her as a lovely lady. Chris Fox is obviously a deal younger than I am and she must have been a very old lady by the time he knew her. It is a pity he seems to have taken what she said as correct without checking.

Somebody will doubtless quote the article in a school essay or similar!

I appreciate the offer of help with regard to a retraction and will post a response here when I get it.

All the best.

[1st AIF]

Rangram,

Thank you for your input and it is great that you have taken action to get the story corrected. The good thing is that you have had quite a lot of good people research your family tree for you. My sister Catriona is quite skilled and she got stuck into this story, her research is below. It shows that Tim, Frev, Catriona, yourself and myself proves that the story is at best poor genealogy or at worst....

I think what is fantastic here is the collective knowledge and abilities of everyone on this forum. Well done guys in keeping history historic. Take on the lads/lassies of the GWF at your own peril!

Catriona's research;

SMITH family of South Australia:-

Frederick SMITH (son of William) married Maggie Jane HUME (daughter of Samuel) on 10 April 1886 in Adelaide, SA.

Frederick SMITH died 28 November 1927, Adelaide, husband of Margaret SMITH, “The Advertiser, 29 November 1927”.

Their children:-

1. Florence Hume SMITH – died aged 5 months

Born: 10 October 1886 Rose Park, SA (twin of Herbert William). Reg. 1886 Norwood, no. 384/406

Father: Frederick SMITH, mother: Maggie Jane nee HUME.

Died: 9 March 1887 (father Frederick SMITH) Reg. no. 161/461

Sources: http://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-databases.html

Ancestry.com.au, Australian Birth, Death, Marriage Indexes.

1. Herbert William SMITH – AIF WWI – did not serve

Born: 10 October 1886 Rose Park, SA (twin of Florence Hume). Reg. 1886 Norwood, no. 384/406

Father: Frederick SMITH, mother: Maggie Jane nee HUME.

Married: 27 July 1910, Loveday Myrtle PASCOE. Son of Frederick SMITH. Reg. 1910 Frome, no. 244/204

Died: 3 February 1916 – tram accident, Adelaide. Reg. 1916 Adelaide, no. 398/542

Occupation at the time of WWI: tram conductor

Children: 2 sons

http://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-databases.html

Ancestry.com.au, Australian Birth Indexes

Various newspaper reports re tram accident 1916, “in memoriam” notices 1918: www.trove.nla.gov.au

1. Frederick Walter SMITH – AIF WWI – Enlisted 17 May 1917, no. 3548

Born: 18 November 1887 Norwood, SA. Reg. 1887 Norwood, no. 408/336

Father: Frederick SMITH, mother: Maggie Jane nee HUME.

Married: 1 May 1915, Frances Hayward BURTON (died 2 March 1917, wife of Frederick Walter SMITH). Reg. 1917 Hindmarsh, no. 409/58.

On enlistment he gave his marital status as “widower”. Was living in Sydney at the time of enlistment. Gave next of kin as father, Frederick Smith, Dulwich Avenue, Adelaide, SA.

Occupation at the time of WWI: shop assistant, clerk

AIF – RTA 23 December 1918, Discharged medically unfit 13 August 1919

Died: 1926, Reg. 1926 Adelaide, no. 489/462

Buried: 22 September 1926, AIF Section , West Terrace Cemetery, Adelaide, SA

Is named by parents in the “in memoriam” notice in paper in February 1918 for his brother “Will” (Herbert William). The notice states that Frederick was on active service overseas.

http://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-databases.html

Ancestry.com.au, Australian Birth, Death, Marriage Indexes

www.naa.gov.au – WWI records

www.awm.gov.au – Embarkation rolls

Various newspaper reports re wife’s death 1917 and Frederick Walter SMITH funeral notice: www.trove.nla.gov.au

1. Alfred Ernest SMITH – AIF – did not serve, died aged 2 years 8 months.

Born: 18 November 1889 Norwood, SA. Reg. 1889 Norwood, no. 450/126

Father: Frederich SMITH, mother: Margaret HUME

Died: 7 July 1892, aged 2. Reg, Clare 1892, no. 203/359. Place of residence, Yongala. Father: Frederick SMITH. Croupal diphtheria. Buried Yongala Cemetery.

http://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-databases.html

Ancestry.com.au: Australian Birth, Death, Marriage Indexes

Death notice: www.trove.nla.gov.au

1. Lottie Ellen SMITH –

Born: 16 September 1891, Yongala, SA. Reg 1891 Clare, no. 487/267

Married: 2 July 1914, Ernest Arthur HOOPER

Placed “in memoriam” notice in paper in February 1918 for her brother “Will” (Herbert William)

1. Clarence Leslie SMITH – AIF WWI – Enlisted 21 August 1916 no. 6588

AIF WWII – Enlisted 6 September 1940 no. S1123

Born: 29 August 1893 Yongala, SA. Reg. 1893 Clare, no. 529/36

Father: Frederick SMITH, mother: Maggie Jane nee HUME.

Married: 26 June 1915, Ada Olive Alfreda DAYMAN. Reg. 1915 Adelaide, no. 263/875

Divorced: 1943

Married: 1944 Alice Maud BATES (probably - “third son of late Mr and Mrs Frederick SMITH”)

Occupation at the time of WWI: clerk

AIF records state born Yongala. Next of kin – wife, Olive Alfreda A SMITH, 1 child.

Embarked 21 October 1916.

AIF – RTA 15 February 1918, dilated heart, GSW left toe. Discharged medically unfit 7 June 1918.

AIF WWII records – Born 29 August 1893 Yongala, SA. Discharged 14 February 1944.

Children – 3

Placed “in memoriam” notice in paper in February 1918 for his brother “Will” (Herbert William). The notice states that Clarence is on active service overseas.

http://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-databases.html

Ancestry.com.au, Australian Birth, Death, Marriage Indexes

www.naa.gov.au – WWI records

www.awm.gov.au – Embarkation rolls

Various newspaper reports re not supporting wife and children, divorce: www.trove.nla.gov.au

1. Errol Victor SMITH – no evidence of service in AIF WWI

Born: 10 May 1895 Yongala, SA. Reg. 1895 Clare, no. 565/120

Father: Frederick SMITH, mother: Margaret Jane nee HUME.

Married: 23 February 1918, Sophie NEWMAN. Reg. 1918 Adelaide, no. 274/378

Died: 26 December 1950. Reg. Adelaide, no. 763/46

Death notice – aged 55 years, husband of Sophie, father of Joyce, Bub and Bill. Loved brother of Clarrie Leslie SMITH and sister in law Pat.

Memoriam notice 1951 – “remembered by brother Aubrey”

Children – 3

Placed “in memoriam” notice in paper in February 1918 for his brother “Will” (Herbert William)

http://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-databases.html

Ancestry.com.au, Australian Birth, Death, Marriage Indexes

Various newspaper reports re legal separation from wife, death notice, in memoriam notices: www.trove.nla.gov.au

1. Aubrey Lyall SMITH – no evidence of AIF WWI service

Born: 17 August 1897 Yongala, SA. Reg. 1897 Clare, no. 609/394

Father: Frederick SMITH, mother: Maggie Jane nee HUME.

Married: 1927, Daisy Evelyn RESEIGH. Reg. 1927 Hindmarsh, no. 310/629

Died: 26 February 1964, SA. Reg. 1964, Pinnaroo, no. 970/1510

Placed “in memoriam” notice in paper in February 1918 for his brother “Will” (Herbert William)/

http://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-databases.html

Ancestry.com.au, Australian Birth, Death, Marriage Indexes

Various newspaper reports: www.trove.nla.gov.au

[1st AIF]

_Rangram,

_{PS. Please keep us posted on retractions and your dealings with the newspapers.}

_Len

[rangram]

1st AIF Thank Catriona for her research which confirms mine which I originally did a few years back. Unfortunately I do not have room on my web page to put all the sources originally used. I take it she also found no evidence of Francis Hume Smith since he is not mentioned.

The support of you all in getting a retraction is much appreciated. It is difficult enough reporting history factually without misleading articles such as this was. I will get back to you as I have further information.

Rangram

[Kitchener's Bugle]

What a brilliant thread this is....... nothing gets past you guys.........

[Auimfo]

Len,

Nice work by Catriona. The only bit of information missing from it is Clarence Leslie SMITH's date of death (1970 - Reg No.97A/6513)

It's interesting that Mr Fox seems to have knowledge of an unrecorded brother 'Francis' Hume SMITH but doesn't know about the sister 'Florence' Hume SMITH. The article states there were 8 children (7 boys and one girl) the eldest being Francis Hume SMITH. It's correct that there were only 8 children but in reality it was 6 boys and 2 girls, the eldest being Florence Hume SMITH.

It appears the information he's been given has been mixed up from the beginning, suggesting this is just another piece of that confusion and what he believes to be an eldest brother is in fact an eldest sister.

Cheers,

Tim L.

Yep 'Kitchener's Bugle' you're right, but a story of this magnitude printed on Anzac Day in Australia was always going to attract huge attention and with it, those who would delve more deeply into it simply out of curiosity. Mr Fox can't necessarily be held to account for simply believing stories passed down from his Grandmother - I'm sure many of us are guilty of accepting some kind of family legend from time to time - but the failure of the journalist and editor to confirm the facts through diligent research prior to releasing the story is unforgivable.

What annoys me the most is that at least two of the brothers did serve during WW1 (and one of them also in WW2). This complete tosh of a myth-making story actually strips them of their real lives which is something I feel very passionate about considering I've spent the last few years helping to rebuild the lives and give voice to the missing Fromelles men.

Most depressingly, the story even made radio on Anzac Day including an interview with Chris Fox. Of course the chat eventually focussed on promoting Mr Fox's Anzac Centenary project.

http://www.2gb.com/audioplayer/42406#.U1zfL16dJFw

During this interview I found it fascinating to hear Mr Fox state that during WW1 the Australian authorities made no effort to spare a surviving brother from the battlefront al la 'Saving Private Ryan'. Again, I'm not sure where he gets his information but there are a number of cases where this exact thing occurred. For example....

(thanks to the 'Gallipoli dead from Western Australia' facebook page for posting this newspaper article)

Cheers,

Tim L.

[rangram]

My email to Ian McPhedran this morning at 8.45 requesting a correction/retraction only produced the result of another 40 min phone call from Mr Fox. Nothing is resolved although he did say he might allow a retraction with respect to Herbert William. He also insisted the Camp Gallipoli venture is totally non-profit with all proceeds going to Legacy, etc.

I would have thought the possibility of a retraction should rest with Mr McPhedran from whom I have not heard.

Catriona, thank you for finding the 1918 In Memoriam notices of which there were several. They do give indications of who was where in Feb 1918.

All the best

[Waddell]

I am glad to hear that that the proceeds of the Gallipoli Camp are going to Legacy and think that it should have been mentioned in that article. This is a sensitive subject to many of us.