Greek WWI bayonets - the Y 1903

[trajan]

Just now, msdt said:

Hi Julian,

 

Yes, was very happy when I picked the bayonet up off the table and saw the George and Dragon!

 

Re the unmarked one, I read that at the outbreak of WW1 Mannlicher still had some of the Y1903/14 rifles for the Greek order undelivered and the Austrian military took them over. The question is, what about bayonets? You state that the bayonets for the Y1903/14 order were made in Germany which seems a surprise to me as they are virtually the same as the standard M95 which Mannlicher would have been tooled up to make in quantity. Do you have a reference for these German made bayonets?

 

Cheers,

Tony

 

I'd be happy too! I think I have about 6 , but only one with its original scabbard - I must sort them out...

 

The Y1914 bayonet is a different kettle of fish - it is a 40 cm long T-backed blade, in production by Simson in 1914 and when WW1 began and Greece held back from supporting Germany they were commissioned to retro-fit these with a S.98 hilt for Bavaria. A Bavarian Kriegsministerium Merkblatt, Nr. 44/15 issued 31 December 1915 gives a description of this - "S.G.14 (griechisches Modell): Schmale, sich stark verjüngende klinge von mittlerer Länge mit starkem Rücken - Holzschalen mit Griffschrauben - Stahlscheide", i.e., "Narrow and strongly tapering blade of a medium length with a strong (i.e., thick/wide) back - wooden grips with grip-screws - steel scabbard".

 

So, generally referred to as the "S.G.14 (griechisches Modell)"!  I'd like to have one but I think less than 10,000 were made - Carter says 8,000... 

 

I don't know how extensive your library is but Carter volume II has it on p.172-173. Carter's account is somewhat muddled as he wasn't aware  - it seems - of the short one that you, SS, and I and other have. That is the Y1903, short knife bayonet, for the Y1903 rifle; the Y 1914 rifle was supposed to be fitted with the long T-backed Y 1914. Williams, vol 2, p. 568-570, also shows the altered version, and follows Carter in saying it was a Greek Y1903. As far as I have been able to establish, the Greeks never received this one, and so it was only the Y1903 short bayonet that saw service in WW1. In the 1930's, Greece commissioned the production of a long T-shaped replacement from various Italian firms and that is what is often seen today advertised today as a Greek Y1914. These all have Italian maker's marks.

 

Unconverted Y1903, by the way, are pretty rare in themselves. Many went to Bulgaria where they were converted to fit their Mannlicher rifles. Hence my joy in finding one that wasn't only in its original state, but a naval issue one to boot, the rarest of the lot! 

 

Best,

 

Julian

 

 

[zuluwar2006]

An excellent example from an original M 1895 Greek bayonet, captured by Bulgarian army (see the numbers on the crossguard) during 2nd Balkan wars (1912- 1913).

The G on the blade and the Saint George hallmark are clearly visible on this bayonet. 

Regards

D. 

[msdt]

Hi Julian,

 

Thanks for the information. From what you say the German made Y1914 bayonets were never supplied to Greece, but Greece surely received some of the Y1903/14 rifles, so the question then is were they supplied with bayonets?

 

Cheers,

Tony

[zuluwar2006]

Another example for the Greek M 1895 bayonet. 

Althought rusted, the Saint George killing the dragon mark, is clearly visible. 

Unit marking I 4626 on the crossguard. 

Regards

D. 

[zuluwar2006]

43 minutes ago, trajan said:

 

I'd be happy too! I think I have about 6 , but only one with its original scabbard - I must sort them out...

 

The Y1914 bayonet is a different kettle of fish - it is a 40 cm long T-backed blade, in production by Simson in 1914 and when WW1 began and Greece held back from supporting Germany they were commissioned to retro-fit these with a S.98 hilt for Bavaria. A Bavarian Kriegsministerium Merkblatt, Nr. 44/15 issued 31 December 1915 gives a description of this - "S.G.14 (griechisches Modell): Schmale, sich stark verjüngende klinge von mittlerer Länge mit starkem Rücken - Holzschalen mit Griffschrauben - Stahlscheide", i.e., "Narrow and strongly tapering blade of a medium length with a strong (i.e., thick/wide) back - wooden grips with grip-screws - steel scabbard".

 

So, generally referred to as the "S.G.14 (griechisches Modell)"!  I'd like to have one but I think less than 10,000 were made - Carter says 8,000... 

 

I don't know how extensive your library is but Carter volume II has it on p.172-173. Carter's account is somewhat muddled as he wasn't aware  - it seems - of the short one that you, SS, and I and other have. That is the Y1903, short knife bayonet, for the Y1903 rifle; the Y 1914 rifle was supposed to be fitted with the long T-backed Y 1914. Williams, vol 2, p. 568-570, also shows the altered version, and follows Carter in saying it was a Greek Y1903. As far as I have been able to establish, the Greeks never received this one, and so it was only the Y1903 short bayonet that saw service in WW1. In the 1930's, Greece commissioned the production of a long T-shaped replacement from various Italian firms and that is what is often seen today advertised today as a Greek Y1914. These all have Italian maker's marks.

 

Unconverted Y1903, by the way, are pretty rare in themselves. Many went to Bulgaria where they were converted to fit their Mannlicher rifles. Hence my joy in finding one that wasn't only in its original state, but a naval issue one to boot, the rarest of the lot! 

 

Best,

 

Julian

 

 

Hello Julian, 

8.000 or 3.000 converted by Germans??? 

Here are some photos from the one of the 2 converted S G 14 bayonets I have. 

Regards

D. 

[AndyBsk]

I assume You mean  a greek M1903 bayonet as M1895 greek probably dont exist, the piece presented in answer 27 should be bulgarian rework with replacement crossguard which is normal M95 not M03, the refurbishment to M95/34 design were made in WW2 period or postwar, scabbard is normal M95.

Second presented piece is probably a untouched M1903 greek contract, as the barell ring looks higher positioned on crossguard, in answer 29, the high is 18mm above handle, the diameter of ring should be smaller.

The long blade piece is a Y1903/14 as rifle is so marked on reciever, so its already called by collectors M1903/14 or M14 long. The refurbishments made by Germany were probably not extra large amount, i believe the Bavarian books speaks similar to Carter about 8000 pcs, but maybe Julian has detailed info.

[zuluwar2006]

Andy this is Correct for M 1895 bayonet.

In the Austrian book "In der Stunde der Not - Fremdlandische Gewehrmodelle in Osterreich-Ungarn 1914-1918" this long bayonet with a T-blade is described as "the original bayonet for Y1903 & 1903/14". Kiesling describes the short M.95 as reworks for Y1903 & 1903/14. 

It is essentially a OEWG Mannlicher 95 bayonet, but with a higher (and different MRD) muzzle-ring for the OEWG-supplied Mannlicher-Schoenauer M.1903 rifle. 

The captured Greek bayonets which converted by Bulgarians are called between Greek collectors m 1895 captured Greek bayonets. 

But the correct mention for unaltered Greek short bayonets, is m 1903, as you are reffering. 

Regards

D. 

 

[AndyBsk]

You known greek stuff as already mentioned in other greek thread corectly,that would means when so mentioned the spanish M93 and romanian M93 are in reality only a german S71/84 with different high and mrd,same chilean M95,is same design as serbianM99,M07,M10,export M04etc,but this dont work so.As the parts are not changeable.You couldnt mount a greek M03 on M95rifle,same as M95 bayonet on M03rifle.long rifle was later probably shortened to short rifle configuration and so they used long blade bayonet on it.M03/14as well.Possible the converted could be called M95,as refurbished to this configuration,but in Bulgaria was it recalibered to M95/34 long rifles shortened to Stutzen or carbine design .

[msdt]

Interesting discussions, but going back to my unmarked (Greek marks that is) Austrian made Y1903 I was wondering if these bayonets were also made for the later contracts for the Greek rifles such as the Y1903/14, which could then explain how these examples could still be sitting with Mannlicher and get used somewhere other than Greece.

Cheers,

Tony

[trajan]

15 hours ago, msdt said:

Hi Julian,

 

Thanks for the information. From what you say the German made Y1914 bayonets were never supplied to Greece, but Greece surely received some of the Y1903/14 rifles, so the question then is were they supplied with bayonets?

 

As far as I am aware from Greek collectors, although the Greek army got the Y1914 rifles, they did not get the long bayonets. The Y1903 bayonet would fit the Y1914 rifle, so not a problem there - plus remember that the Greek army was still using the Gras rifle in 1914-1918 and through to the 1920's and that many Gras bayonets were converted to fit the Y1903 and Y1914 rifles.

 

In the decade or so I have been collecting and looking around antique shops and fairs here I have never seen a Y1914 bayonet, but plenty of Gras converted for the role, along with the short Y1903's I have picked up. I assume that these are all left-overs from the Turkish War of Independence.

 

Julian

[trajan]

15 hours ago, zuluwar2006 said:

Another example for the Greek M 1895 bayonet. 

Althought rusted, the Saint George killing the dragon mark, is clearly visible. 

Unit marking I 4626 on the crossguard. 

Regards

D. 

 

Thanks D! As far as I understand it, from when I first started looking at these things, the Greek Military Museum does not have an example of one of these Y1903, so perhaps a present for them?! 

[trajan]

This follows on from some of the points raised above.

 

The key text I have used for my information on these Greek bayonets was Christos Z. Sazanidis, Τα όπλα των Ελλήνων: Μια ιστορική μελέτη του φορητού οπλισμού των Ελληνικών Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων, των Σωμάτων Ασφαλείας και Αντάρτικων Σωμάτων (1821-1992) (= The Arms of Hellenes, a Historical Survey of the Small Arms of the Hellenic Arms Forces, the Security Forces, and Guerilla Bands, (1821-1992)), Thessaloniki, Greece, 1995. ISBN 960-90213-0-01. In Greek ONLY, with English captions to the plates, and I got it through Interlibrary loan and so have only my notes to go on, as reported above in this thread and my thread on Gras bayonets converted to Y1903/1904 rifle standard. I also had information from GBForum members, BUT as is annoyingly usual in bayonet matters without the back-up references…

 

According to one source, the first order to Steyr was for 100,000 M1903/14 rifles with long T-backed bayonets, and was agreed in July 1913, and that "only a part was delivered due to the situation at the time". Another source states that in August 1914, the “Austrians seized the next order for MS 1903/14 from the OEWG Factory (contracted 24.July 1913) for 200.000 M 1903/14, and gave them to the Polish Legion.” Make of that what you will! 

 

For information, my notes from that book (OR from John Speed of GBForum?) supply the following figures of what the Greek army had in 1923-1940:

1. 96,000 6.5 mm Y1903 and Y1903/14 Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifles
2. 8,650 Y1903 Mannlicher-Schoenauer  carbines
3. 16,000 8 mm M1888/90 and M1895 Bulgarian Mannlicher rifles
4. 700 8 mm M1890 and M1895 Bulgarian Mannlicher carbines.
5. 26,000 7.65 mm M1890, M1893, and M1903 Turkish Mauser rifles
6. 10,500 7.65 mm M1890 and M1905 Turkish Mauser carbines.
7. 9,150 M1898 Mauser rifles

 

Again, as I understand it, most Y1914 rifles around today are either the versions rebuilt for Greece at Breda in 1927 and so are (pendantically!) Y 1903/14/27, or are from the last official contract with Steyr in 1930, when Greece received 25,000 more Y 1903/1914 rifles which would technically be the Y1903/14/30.

 

ALL the T-backed bayonets for the Y1914 and its derivatives that I have seen are Italian made and IIRC, are marked "Gnutti" on the ricasso.

 

Julian

[trajan]

16 hours ago, zuluwar2006 said:

Hello Julian, 

8.000 or 3.000 converted by Germans??? 

Here are some photos from the one of the 2 converted S G 14 bayonets I have. 

Regards

D. 

 Well, you have two so if one is going spare...!!!

 

According to the Bavarian records, the first 100 of 8.000 'Seitengewehre 1914' were delivered by Simson to the Bavarian Royal Armoury on 4th March 1915. These have to be the conversions from the Greek Y1914 as Simson did not make any of the short knife-type S.14 made by Odeon, etc.

 

Julian  

[trajan]

14 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

I assume You mean  a greek M1903 bayonet as M1895 greek probably dont exist...

 

13 hours ago, zuluwar2006 said:

Andy this is Correct for M 1895 bayonet.... 

 

See post 26 above on M95's in service with the Greek Army 1923-1940.

[trajan]

10 hours ago, msdt said:

Interesting discussions, but going back to my unmarked (Greek marks that is) Austrian made Y1903 I was wondering if these bayonets were also made for the later contracts for the Greek rifles such as the Y1903/14, which could then explain how these examples could still be sitting with Mannlicher and get used somewhere other than Greece.

Cheers,

Tony

 

Not certain what you mean there Tony, but there was such a too-ing and fro-ing in the Balkans with rifles and bayonets who knows what could have happened! The Bulgarian M.95's in Greek use we have discussed above along the way have, IIRC, Bulgarian marks removed and Greek ones added. so the key is really what 'ownership' mark do you have, if any, plus of course the MRD and the height of the muzzle ring.  

 

Julian

[AndyBsk]

Certainly the small part were produced with correct long bayonets, OEWG proofed in early 1914.

There exist bayonets M03/14 long blade. Question about delivering of some ammounts to Greece prior war start i dont have. Anyway a small bunch were used in austrian units.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/wwi-greek-steyr-mod-1903-mannlicher-414115011

[zuluwar2006]

This excellent book, has all the answers needed for a collector about the use and convertion of bayonets, for mannlicher schonauer Greek rifle Y 1903 and Y 1903/14 and Y 1903/14/30, according the orders made for rifles to Austria and italy. 

Regards

D. 

Edited 3 May , 2020 by zuluwar2006

[trajan]

Thanks D! It will be a challenge for most of us here - does it have an English summary?

[msdt]

I will refrain from saying "It's all Greek to me"! Just to reiterate my 'unmarked' bayonet is a Y1903, it exactly matches all the correct dimensions. The only marks are the OEWG manufacturer's stamp and serial number 442 on the opposite side of the crosspiece to normal.

Cheers,

Tony

[zuluwar2006]

2 hours ago, trajan said:

Thanks D! It will be a challenge for most of us here - does it have an English summary?

Unfortunately not, I can translate it and send it to you... 

Regards

D. 

[AndyBsk]

So You could shed light into when and how much got Greece the M03/14 from Steyr. 

[zuluwar2006]

1 hour ago, AndyBsk said:

So You could shed light into when and how much got Greece the M03/14 from Steyr. 

Off course Andy, 

Regards

And thank you for the wishes

Regards

D. 

[trajan]

12 hours ago, msdt said:

I will refrain from saying "It's all Greek to me"! Just to reiterate my 'unmarked' bayonet is a Y1903, it exactly matches all the correct dimensions. The only marks are the OEWG manufacturer's stamp and serial number 442 on the opposite side of the crosspiece to normal.

Cheers,

Tony

 

I have the same problem when faced with Greek inscriptions... My ancint Greek is pretty not existant but if I can find the sequence 'KAI' then I can make a start - 'KAI' means 'and'...!!!

 

The Greek serial numbering is very distinctive but also very lightly stamped, and followed by a Greek letter (or two as I have recently discovered!), so have another look for a scrubbed out Greek serial.

 

Julian

[trajan]

11 hours ago, zuluwar2006 said:

Unfortunately not, I can translate it and send it to you... 

 

11 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

So You could shed light into when and how much got Greece the M03/14 from Steyr. 

 

9 hours ago, zuluwar2006 said:

Off course Andy, 

 

Yes, that would be wonderful to know how many Y1903/14's were delivered - also if you can give an answer to this question of  'Did Simson deliver any T-backed Y.1914 bayonets to Greece before August 1914?' And, what number of Y 1903/14's were passed to this Polish unit - with bayonets or without?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Julian

 

PS: waiting for a spare hour to get onto to your 'German bayonets in my collection' thread!

[AndyBsk]

Question is the Simson bayonets should be delivered with what bunch of rifles, because the first bunch of M03/14 were equiped with Steyr bayonets.And the polish legion got a part of greek contract with proper long blade bayonets. So there is no link to bavarian Simson pieces.