Greek WWI bayonets - the Y 1903

[trajan]

This one, the Y 1903, is among the rarest of the Greek bayonets. It is essentially a OEWG Mannlicher 95 bayonet, but with a higher (and different MRD) muzzle-ring for the OEWG-supplied Mannlicher-Schoenauer M.1903 rifle. This rifle was finally adopted by the Greek army in late 1905, but not brought into service until July 1907, with some 130,000 rifles (and presumably bayonets) supplied to Greece by late 1912 or early 1913 (information from Christos Sazanidis, "Ta opla ton Ellinon (Arms of the Greeks)", Maiandros, Thessaloniki, 1995, pp 555-556).

Like the usual OEWG/Mannlicher bayonets these Y 1903’s are upside down, in the sense that the blade faces up towards the muzzle ring. Which means that the George-and-Dragon mark indicating Greek army use is on what we would normally think of as the reverse side of the pommel (where the press-stud is in this case – and which is why the photograph below is that way around!)… Other characteristics are the Roman/Latin letter ‘G’ (I assume for 'Griechisch')on the ‘reverse’ ricasso, and the OE/WG mark for the ÖstErreichische WaffenfabriksGesellschaft on the ‘obverse’ side, along with the Greek serial number followed by a Greek letter positioned on the ‘reverse’ side of the muzzle ring - e.g., on one of mine the serial number 1354 is followed by the Greek letter GAMMA.

What makes these bayonets rather rare is that most of the known surviving examples were at some stage captured or passed over to the Bulgarians and then adapted by them and others with a new crossguard fitted with a lower (and smaller) muzzle ring for use with the Mannlicher rifle. So, you will sometimes see a Mannlicher bayonet that might have (rarely) a George and Dragon mark on the pommel, and (slightly more often) a ‘G’ mark on the ricasso, indicating Greek issue and use, but the muzzle ring and crossguard are wrong, with the muzzle ring too low and the MRD wrong for a M-S 1903 rifle.

Unconverted examples of these Y 1903 bayonets are really quite rare – remember only 130,000 or so were made! Dedicated Greek bayonet collectors on another forum have indicated to me that they know of one example in a museum and one with another collector. I have been exceptionally lucky in getting three, of which I show two below. Top to bottom are my best Y1903 bayonet and scabbard and my second best example (its scabbard supports all three bayonets), and then a regular Mannlicher 1895 for comparison purposes regarding height of muzzle ring. I also show photographs from a source(s) that I did not note at the time showing the George-and-Dragon property mark found on these Greek bayonets and the Greek 'Cross-in-a-circle' and OE/WG mark on the frog stud ((Nick, or Carl, I think these might be yours?).

[trajan]

So, here are two of my three Y 1903's together. Those of you who might have read previous posts of mine will know that I am way behind on getting my bayonets properly cleaned... If you have a full time job and two very active infant sons you will appreciate why that is the case... I have got started on cleaning the second but I’ll not show the third example just yet…!!!

The top one is the first that I bought, with the serial number 1534 Γ (for ‘gamma’), and has its original scabbard and (I think) original frog. The second is serial number 4103 Γ, and it came with a regular OE/WG M.1895 scabbard.

[trajan]

The second photograph shows (I hope!) the serial numbers more clearly and also the distinctive ‘G’ mark on the reverse ricasso on one of these bayonets - and on that same one the St.George and Dragon on the pommel and the Greek cross in a circle on the frog stud over the OE/WG mark.

[sawdoc34]

Nice bayonets Julian, an example of this model has so far eluded me for the M1895 type part of the collection & you have 3.

Looks like a trip to ebay is called for or failing that it seems a holiday in turkey could be on the cards

Aleck

[trajan]

Nice bayonets Julian, an example of this model has so far eluded me for the M1895 type part of the collection

Good to see that you are back in internet connection land mate!

The altered versions of the Y 1903, with the adapted and lowered crossguard and muzzle ring, with the smaller MRD to make them fit the regular M 1895, are sometimes advertised for sale as 'Greek Mannlicher bayonets', because they do have Greek marks on them!

As for the Y 1903's, the rarest of the rare would be an unaltered naval issue - I have never heard of one of these ever having been found, but I have heard and know of (Bulgarian) converted examples of the Greek navy Y1903 - and they are pretty rare as well!

TTFN,

Julian

[trajan]

I just realised that I had not given the dimensions for the Mannlicher Schonauer Y.1903 rifle or its bayonet. Woe is me!

Here goes. The rifle has an overall length of 1,226 mm (48.25 inches), and the bayonet an overall length of 36 cm and blade length of 28 cm. The bayonet MRD is 1.4. cm, and the bottom of the muzzle ring from the back of the handle is 1.8 cm (on the regular Mannlicher bayonets and Y.1903's converted to Mannlichers, the MRD is 1.45, and height to bottom of muzzle ring from the back of the handle is 1.3).

Trajan

[trajan]

I had completely forgotten this postcard, reproduced on GBF by their member MGMike, showing Greek Gendarmes in Salonika in 1913 - note the short Y.1903 bayonet they carry.

Trajan

[trajan]

For cross-referencing purposes for bayonet fanatics only - see http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=180459&hl= post 13 ff for another example of this rarity. Noted here simply because the thread title does not indicate that a newly-found Y1903 bayonet is discussed there.

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

And some photos for the archives ...

[trajan]

And some photos for the archives ...

Thank you so much SS!

So, a "9619 Γ"... I do know that one of mine is "1354 Γ", and off-hand I think that my two others also have four-number serials ending with a "Γ" (= Gamma or "G"), and that the numbers on those are twixt thine and mine.

For anyone looking for one of these then aside from the Greek 'St.George' and the almost unique placing of the serial number, the relevant dimensions that differentiate this from a standard M95 are (according to my notes): crossguard, 17.8 mm between handle and bottom of crossguard; and a slightly larger muzzle ring, at 14 mm. - but I am working from an old (2012) version of my catalogue notes, not the most up to date one (at home in Ankara) and so don't take these figures as gospel!.

That aside, THE book for Greek bayonets, BTW, is: Christos Sazanidis, Τα Οπλα Τον Ηλλίνον (Ta opla ton Ellinon = Arms of the Greeks), Maiandros, Thessaloniki (1995), ISBN 960-90213-0-01. It has a short English summary and IIRC captions in Greek and English for the very poor photographs... It also has a bunch of detail on those MS rifles, but I have never tried to read that bit... Sorry Chris!

Trajan

[trajan]

Looking through my 'downloads' file I found this old photograph of the first and second examples of my Y 1903's, showing the almost unique position of the serial number. The second one seems to be serialled "4031 Γ", and note that it is in a regular OEWG-marked scabbard.

As for the third example I have, I know I have never taken a photograph of that one yet - in fact I don't think I have even cleaned it yet... I'll try to have a go when I get back in three weeks time!

[trajan]

And some photos for the archives ...

And another for the archives! "Courtesy www.eBAYONET.com" (http://ebayonet.com/13100/13160.jpg) [no connection to the bayonet or seller!] - 3384 with the ' gamma' letter suffix

Trajan

[trajan]

Once there were three...now there are five... Every time I visit the monthly local 'Antika Pazari' I never know what I will find, usually not very much - but these two Y.1903's appeared today, one with probably an original scabbard, and possibly original frog, the other naked as she comes!

So that's five of these rarities that I now have, one of the original three still needing some TLC, as do these two, and I'll report back on that when that is done, but just to tantalise you all a little, although one of these two new ones has the "usual" GAMMA suffix to the serial number, the other (the one with the scabbard) has a ZETA suffix...

Trajan

[trajan]

This photograph was posted by GBF member 'Greekman' on a thread there, and is a nice one to reproduce here as it is the only studio-shot I am aware of showing a Greek wearing the Y.1903.

[trajan]

Getting somewhere with cleaning the markings on the two new ones - there are serial numbers and St.George's under that grime, which is proving hard to clean off... For now I'll just list the old and new serial numbers, plus others that I know off, in case anyone is interested:

OLD:

1534 Γ (for ‘gamma’)

4103 Γ

5612 Γ (not certain on the 'gamma')

NEW:

5146 Γ

9152 Z ('zeta')

OTHERS:

9169 Γ (Shipping Steel - see above post 9)

3384 Γ (information from Otto - see above post 12)

9062 ZT ('zeta tau': information from Otto - shown below, "Courtesy www.eBAYONET.com" (http://ebayonet.com/13100/13160.jpg) [no connection to the bayonet or seller!])

This last one with its 'zeta tau' suggests that these Y.1903's may have been numbered by the nine thousands (up to 9999 at a time), as it were. I understand that the Greeks were supplied with some 130,000 M-S rifles and I assume the bayonets to go with them, and so serial numbering by the nine thousands with a letter suffix seems to have been practiced, a secondary letter being added to the first once 'omega' was reached, and so AA, AB, etc.

BTW, Otto also very kindly showed me this Italian-made Y.1903/14, serialled: ZT 6341 on the right side of the muzzle ring. Photograph again "Courtesy www.eBAYONET.com" (http://ebayonet.com/13100/13160.jpg) [no connection to the bayonet or seller!])

[trajan]

I really don't know where I downloaded this one from, but I have it labelled as the Balkan Wars with Turkish prisoners guarded by Greeks... However, it looks to me as if those 'Greeks' have Y.1903's... Can / will anyone confirm? SS? - you have a thing with rifles with bayonets affixed! And does anyone know the source?

Trajan

[trajan]

OK, prepare to be astounded, and for some of you, perhaps envious...

This is a Y1903 for the Greek navy... Not in the best of conditions, with a slightly bent tip, woodworm in the obverse grip, and a cracked muzzle ring. But, hey, I am not going to complain! Apparently, according to Greek sources, only 2,500 of these were made/issued, and this is serial number 1244 T. And of these 2500, all the surviving specimens known to one major Greek bayonet collector were 'Bulgarianised' with a new crossguard to fit the M.95 - and this one wasn't... So, probably the rarest bayonet I have... and time for a drink! And I'll post some better photographs when I can

[trajan]

Well, this was a surprise... I originally thought that the letter at the end of the serial number was a 'T', but it is not, it is an upside-down anchor... Makes sense I suppose, for a Naval bayonet, but no other example of the unaltered version of this bayonet seems to be published anywhere, so a surprise to me!

[trajan]

Here is a slightly better photograph of the markings on the Naval Y1903, which - in its unaltered form - still seems to stand alone without a parallel... Apparently, according one of my Greek contacts, there isn't even one in the Greek Military Museums...

As noted earlier, it has some woodworm damage to the one grip and I can live with that, but I am wondering if I should do something about the cracked crossguard? Somebody has tried to mend it before and again, I can live with it as it is, but I guess a good blacksmith might be able to heat and bend it back into place?

[DJM]

Has the whole hilt and muzzle ring been painted yellow at some point?

You'd have to remove the wooden handles before heating to avoid charring them, so while a repaired muzzle ring would certainly look better, it depends on whether the process might endanger other parts which would, surely, be to be strictly avoided?

DJM

[trajan]

Has the whole hilt and muzzle ring been painted yellow at some point?

Yes - well spotted! This is the second 'gilded' bayonet I have come across over here, the other being a WW2 German shortened version of a French 'Lebel'. I assume they have been used in amateur dramatics or the like...

Thanks for the advice re: fixing the muzzle ring. On the whole I will probably leave it as it is, a part of its 'history' - but the 'gilding' will probably go...

Trajan

[msdt]

Please see the new post I have started for my seemingly none Greek 1903 Mannlicher-Schoenauer bayonet.

Cheers,

Tony

 

 

Edited 19 April , 2020 by msdt

[msdt]

As these Greek bayonets have re-appeared on the agenda thought I'd post the example I got last year. As it is so clearly marked I was surprised to see it labelled as Austrian, and very reasonably priced even for a standard Austrian one! And it has the correct scabbard! 

I have also edited the above post with a link added as it was a long while ago. As I stated then I can only assume that was one of the batch due to go to Greece in 1914 but requisitioned by the Austrians as it had not yet been delivered. It is as it would have been in the warehouse but with a subsequent number added - though it has no military acceptance stamps and even the number is not standard for Austrian markings.

Anyway here is my quite clean Greek Y1903.

Cheers,

Tony

 

[trajan]

 

 

 

On 19/04/2020 at 21:57, msdt said:

As these Greek bayonets have re-appeared on the agenda thought I'd post the example I got last year. As it is so clearly marked I was surprised to see it labelled as Austrian, and very reasonably priced even for a standard Austrian one! And it has the correct scabbard! 

I have also edited the above post with a link added as it was a long while ago. As I stated then I can only assume that was one of the batch due to go to Greece in 1914 but requisitioned by the Austrians as it had not yet been delivered. It is as it would have been in the warehouse but with a subsequent number added - though it has no military acceptance stamps and even the number is not standard for Austrian markings.

Anyway here is my quite clean Greek Y1903.

Cheers,

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Tony,

 

That is a ovly example! I have one in a similar condition (linked to above, with its frog) but picked up here in Turkey where these were used in the Turkish War of Independence, so I don't have a problem with yours having been Greek-issued at some stage - as is indicated by the serial number. You have 916 sigma-tau, which is certainly very interesting as I have never seen one of the original Y.1903's with a double-lettered serial number before. I don't think these ever saw Austrian use and I believe they would only fit the Mannlicher rifle Y1903/1914. The bayonets for the rifle 1914 were all made in Germany where they stayed after August 1914, and were modified to fit the Gew.98.  

 

Julian

[msdt]

Hi Julian,

 

Yes, was very happy when I picked the bayonet up off the table and saw the George and Dragon!

 

Re the unmarked one, I read that at the outbreak of WW1 Mannlicher still had some of the Y1903/14 rifles for the Greek order undelivered and the Austrian military took them over. The question is, what about bayonets? You state that the bayonets for the Y1903/14 order were made in Germany which seems a surprise to me as they are virtually the same as the standard M95 which Mannlicher would have been tooled up to make in quantity. Do you have a reference for these German made bayonets?

 

Cheers,

Tony