Football match & The Christmas Truce 1914

[Anneca]

"New Research" and "at least 15 separate matches" I wonder where this came from...... and football matches, not as we known them, more like kickabouts. After reading Brown and Seaton's book on the Christmas Truce I am sceptical about the Sunday Times article.

Anne

[pehrt]

I would like to explain about the 15 matches. I told the reporter that I have made a list of mentions that I have seen of football between British and German soldiers during the Christmas Truce. Today I have 32 mentions on my list. When I group them together, so that mentions that could refer to the same incident are together, there are 15 groups of mentions. The groups range from seven mentions to single mentions.

I don't know if this can be called "analysed". It is not a word that I used.

But I do not blame him for writing Harold Douglas Bryan's story. It does not fit in with any of the Scots Gurads' war diaries, which I told him, but it is still worth telling.

With best wishes

Pehr Thermaenius

[John_Hartley]

I'd also be interested in knowing the basis for the "new research". Mention of 15 matches seem to me to undermine the evidence that there was probably a single kickabout (and, yes, I know Martin will say there is no evidence but we'll have to continue to disagree) .

John

(EDIT: apologies to Pehr, I was typing my post at the same time. Seems the reporter has translated Pehr's mentions into actual games. Journalists, eh! )

[Guest]

I'd also be interested in knowing the basis for the "new research". Mention of 15 matches seem to me to undermine the evidence that there was probably a single kickabout (and, yes, I know Martin will say there is no evidence but we'll have to continue to disagree) .

John

(EDIT: apologies to Pehr, I was typing my post at the same time. Seems the reporter has translated Pehr's mentions into actual games. Journalists, eh! )

I am not wedded to the idea. There is a good chance all kinds of things happened and I have little doubt that some men kicked something about. I simply am rooted in the idea that things need to be supported with compelling evidence.... and preferably from multiple sources that agree.... and preferably not conflicting with other seemingly reliable evidence. I would be delighted to see proof. I don't really care if there was a football match. It is an interesting part of history.

[Guest]

To to fill out the Scots Guards story - the 2nd Bn was in 20th Inf Bde. Here is the Bde HQ report for the days concerned:

24^th Dec 1914. Last night one of our Scouts Pte MURKER of the Scots Guards was out , he heard a voice from the German trenches shouting that the Germans would like to ‘parley’. A man came out to him and said they wanted to have a quiet Xmas Day. All their men were sick of the war. They had lost twenty-five killed in last Friday’s attack. On an officer approaching the man changed his conversation and began talking about Xmas. The officer gave our scout some cigars and sent a message in to say that if we agreed not to shoot today they the Germans would do the same and Xmas Day might be passed in peace.

25th Dec 1914. The Day passed off with not a shot being fired after 9 am by either side.

About 10 am both sides appeared outside their trenches. An officer went across and met the German commanding officer and they agreed to bury all the dead which were lying out between the trenches. The dead were collected and took both German and British were buried side by side. Captain Chaplain of the Forces ADAM conducting the burial service which was interpreted and a German student of Divinity repeating it after him. The following report was received from Captain Gordon commanding No.2 Subsection:

“The Commandant of the German Forces immediately in front of my subsection came out of his trench about 10 am. I met him halfway between the two lines of trenches. We agreed to bury the dead any bodies of our men over the halfway line should be carried across by their men and vice-versa, so that there was no possibility of viewing the trenches. This was done and all the dead have now been buried. I would like to point out that the Borders who made their night attack were intermingled with German dead and it would appear that the Germans made a counter-attack. I observed the following regiments holding the points of the line immediately in front of my subsection: - The Saxon Corps, 54^th and 159^th Bavarians. The men are mostly young but of good physique. Noticed the majority of these carried hand grenades at their sides. Several of them showed me the ‘Iron Cross’ which they had received which would make it appear that they had been fighting in other parts before coming here. I obtained information about Captain Askew, 2^nd Border Regt he was in their trenches firing his revolver at them when he was killed. Captain Hanbury-Tracy, Scots Guards was captured by them (wounded) and lived for 6 hours. His effects were taken off him and are being sent home to his wife by them. He said only seven prisoners were taken during the night attack on the 18^th. I am quite confident none of the Germans approached our trenches and men were on observation in the trenches all day” –

Captain H Taylor’s body was also found and the Germans reported they captured one other wounded officer which must be Lieut R Nugent Scots Guards as he is the only one not accounted for.

26^th Dec 1914. The day passed off quietly, neither side firing and both sides outside their trenches walking about. The Germans complained that they had no meat. Some of the men sent them over some ‘Bully Beef’. They are said to have fought for it like tigers. Most of the men reported ‘missing’ after the fight on the night of the 18^th-19^th are now accounted for. The Germans say they only took ten prisoners. The remainder were all killed or died of wounds. A great many of the dead, both British and German were found lying together on the ground between the trenches, silent witnesses to the fierce contest which must have taken place in the darkness. The Germans testified that most of their wounds were caused by bayonets. This is accounted for the fact that our men’s rifles were so clogged up with mud they were unable to fire with them. Each man is now being served out with a loose canvas bag to slip over the muzzle of his rifle and which is able to be pulled off instantly the rifle is required for use. Even if the rifle is required on the spur of the moment it does no harm to fire it off with the bag still in position on the rifle. Large numbers of men were employed in cleaning out the RIVER-DE-LAYES in the hopes of being able to drain some of the water out of the trenches. Every day more of the latter are inundated with water by the increasing floods.

In consequence of so many men being killed and wounded, repairing and putting fresh wire out in front of the trenches, trestles are now being made. They are wired up before being placed and rolled out, men crawling out to peg them down when in position.

A false alarm at 11 pm of an intended German attack. All was quiet however throughout the night.

27^th Dec 1914. Many trenches fall in and the day was busily employed in repairing them.

The Germans tried to come over and enjoy another day’s so called “armistice” but were informed that they must keep to their trenches. They seemed to be quite indignant and said they wouldn’t fire if we didn’t but if we had orders to fire to signal to them with three volleys first fired into the air.

28^th Dec 1914. Last night the Germans enticed four Scots Guards Privates to come into their trenches. Needless to say they have not returned.*... [continues]

* According to the 2nd Bn Gordon Highlanders' diary some 40 Germans who paid a visit to the 2nd Bn Border Regt were kept prisoners as a reprisal

[pehrt]

My post about the 15 matches from a few hours ago seems to have disappeared, so I would like to write it again.

I told the Sunday Times reporter that I have listed mentions of football incidents during the Christmas Truce with both British and German soldiers involved. Today I have 32 mentions on my list. I have grouped them together, so that mentions that could refer to the same incident are together. There are 15 groups. They range between seven mentions and single mentions.

I don't know if this is "analysed". I did not use that word. I suggested "listed" or something like that.

I think the reporter was right to write Harold Bryan's story. It does not fit in with the war diaries of any of the Scots Guards battalions, which I told the reporter, but it is well worth telling.

With best wishes

Pehr Thermaenius

[keithmroberts]

Pehr

Post no 127 above by you is still visible.

Regards

Keith

[Guest]

It will very be interesting to see how much additional research there has been since "Christmas Truce: The Western Front December 1914" by Brown and Seaton. There are dozens of references to football in the book, and none appear to be able to stand up on their own. The authors don't appear to come to any hard conclusions and much of the evidence is hearsay or cannot be corroborated by other sources. Two are from men recalling events more than 50 years later. To their great credit they do provide some balance by quoting men who were there who stated football matches didn't happen.

It is an easy read and anyone interested in this subject will doubtless find it useful. First published in 1984 and updated in 1999. It seems very well researched on its core subject with lots of references to first hand accounts held in various archives (mostly IWM) including plenty from the 2nd Bn Scots Guards...... There are some rather imaginative claims that infantry battalions in the BEF in 1914 had 35 Officers. (page 1 of the Explanatory note) which rather lowers expectations. That aside I would not hesitate recommending it. Less than £4 on Kindle and you can search keyword football too.

Amazon link here but if you buy it through the GWF link the website benefits... MG

MG

[Muerrisch]

I suspect the "football" games are in the same category as "King's Corporals" or "The Horse Marines"

And the Unicorn.

[Fattyowls]

It will very be interesting to see how much additional research there has been since "Christmas Truce: The Western Front December 1914" by Brown and Seaton. There are dozens of references to football in the book, and none appear to be able to stand up on their own. The authors don't appear to come to any hard conclusions and much of the evidence is hearsay or cannot be corroborated by other sources and two are from men recalling event more than 50 years later. To their great credit they do provide some balance by quoting men who were there who stated football matches didn't happen.

It is an easy read and anyone interested in this subject will doubtless find it useful. First published in 1984 and updated in 1999. It seems very well researched on its core subject with lots of references to first hand accounts held in various archives (mostly IWM) including plenty from the 2nd Bn Scots Guards...... There are some rather imaginative claims that infantry battalions in the BEF in 1914 had 35 Officers. (page 1 of the Explanatory note) which rather lowers expectations. That aside I would not hesitate recommending it. Less than £4 on Kindle and you can search keyword football too.

Amazon link here but if you buy it through the GWF link the website benefits... MG

MG

Martin

That's exactly what I did last week; I read the book some years ago but without a specific interest in the football angle. I've also ordered a book by some chap called Chris Baker who I believe knows his onions. Both done through the forum links.

I recently had an article about Everton FC's links to Lille put on one of the club fan sites to accompany our game in the city on Thursday. I mentioned the Christmas Truce football and said there was no unequivocal evidence based on the excellent research that has appeared in this thread. I was intrigued at the response to this which suggested that the football matches are an article of faith among some modern day football fans. Football fans in the trenches on Christmas Day 1914 may have been thinking about football as there was a complete set of fixtures at home on both Christmas Day and Boxing Day 1914. It was traditional for these to be a double header; Everton played Bradford City home and away on the two days.

One comment on my article suggested that there are photographs of the Christmas Truce football matches at Toc-H in Poperinge. It is many years since I've been there and I was wondering if anyone had seen these or has a contact at Toc-H I could ask? Also has anyone got a feel for the amount of barbed wire that was in existence between the lines on Christmas Day?

I would like to explain about the 15 matches. I told the reporter that I have made a list of mentions that I have seen of football between British and German soldiers during the Christmas Truce. Today I have 32 mentions on my list. When I group them together, so that mentions that could refer to the same incident are together, there are 15 groups of mentions. The groups range from seven mentions to single mentions.

I don't know if this can be called "analysed". It is not a word that I used.

But I do not blame him for writing Harold Douglas Bryan's story. It does not fit in with any of the Scots Gurads' war diaries, which I told him, but it is still worth telling.

With best wishes

Pehr Thermaenius

Pehr, it sounds as though you have done a terrific amount of research on this; I look forward to reading more. I'd be hugely interested in the locations of the groups of mentions that you have found.

Pete.

[pehrt]

I have looked around for football material for the last couple of years, on and off. Whenever I saw a mention of football where both British and German soldiers took part I made a note of it. I made a list of these mentions. If that is research, then I have done research.

The reason I did this is that I researched one particular football incident which I believe really was a match. I have written a book about this match and two footballers and soldiers who were in these two units. It was published in Sweden in February and it will be out in English in a few weeks.

I have thought about Martin's discussion about sources in post 133. In my view the job is more difficult than he describes it. The job is to strike the right balance. There are two faults waiting for us on either side of the knife's edge. One fault is what Martin describes, namely to avoid stories we can see (or should have seen) are exaggerated or not true. The other fault is to be overly rigorous and thus not telling stories that are worth telling and should be told because they teach us something about the war.

I think probably many important lessons from history would not have been there for us to learn from if historians had always applied the rules of a court of law. And I think that also if we apply a stringent academic method we would probably disqualify stories that should be told. Which means that we have fallen down from the knife's edge – not on Martin's side but on the other side.

Harold Bryan's story is a good example for discussion. I compared it, fact by fact, with the war diaries of the two Scots Guards battalions. I found that these diaries do not fit together. So, with a stringent evaluation of sources Bryan's story should not be told. But on the other hand it is a strong story. I find it difficult to believe that someone should sit down in the years after the war with pen and paper to write down an invented story. My conclusion here is that there is something we do not understand, there is some important information missing. So I think the right thing to do is to tell readers that Bryan's story is not supported by the other sources, to be open about this. But it is right to tell his story. I am glad l did not miss it.

Pehr

[Guest]

I find it difficult to believe that someone should sit down in the years after the war with pen and paper to write down an invented story.

Pehr

It is called confabulation. I would go as far as to say, any account written years after the event should be treated with extreme caution.

It might be worth reading Kahneman and Tversky and their work on cognitive science. (Kahneman got a Nobel prize in related areas). I fear you are giving far too much credit to single recollections -such as Bryan's - without stress-testing these accounts against the known facts from other sources. It is possible that your samples are simply cases of induced memory. It was noticeable that Bryan's account (which you suggest the journalist was justified publishing) was clearly written well after the events by some considerable time yet you still give it credence. Why? One of the possibilities is that Bryan was confabulating, surely? It is so at odds with other known facts from multiple independent sources that it simply screams out that it is unreliable.

It is not about balance, it is about accuracy.

There is a strong school of study, developed over decades that has exposed the weaknesses and fallacies of memory. This area has been well documented, but sadly not sufficiently applied to Great War material. The reliability of memory of facts created under stress is an area that is easy to calibrate. University psychologists have conducted scores of experiments to demonstrate the inherent weakness of our ability to recall facts accurately. In recent years the advent of video evidence has simply exploded the myth that we have reliable memories. We don't. Not even over short periods of time. The memory does not work like a video recorder. It is very fragile and easily distorts recollection of the past during the retrieval process. This is well documented and in the last 30 years there have been pioneering studies into the inherent weaknesses of eyewitness testimony. It is very easy to understand why someone could confabulate events.

The challenge with this Christmas truce football game thematic is that there are plenty of fragments of the jig-saw puzzle. However, when we try to fit the pieces together many simply don't fit with other accounts that can be proven to be reliable. Rather than try to jam them into place, surely the informed response is to ask why they don't fit? We have no need to create an imagined history. We should ask questions, and challenge rather than accept half-baked solutions. Hopefully we will then get nearer a better understanding.

The justification and the need to generate PR has in this case accidentally perpetuated another unsubstantiated myth. In fact it is creating a new myth. 15 matches no less - look at the article in the Times (ciculation @ 900,000)- it is utter nonsense. This seems to be taking our understanding backwards rather than forwards. MG

Edit: I look forward to the book and I will certainly buy it.

[Ghazala]

I suppose the Germans won on penalties . . . .

In amongst this serious discussion some humour shines through. Thanks Stoppage.

[Simon Jones]

Chris Baker's book contains a thoroughly researched and balanced analysis of the evidence for football matches and I would commend anyone to read it before they contribute to this debate.

Pehr - Are you saying that Bryan's account is valid because it conforms to a view of the war that you already hold?

The other fault is to be overly rigorous and thus not telling stories that are worth telling and should be told because they teach us something about the war.

[Guest]

Chris Baker's book contains a thoroughly researched and balanced analysis of the evidence for football matches and I would commend anyone to read it before they contribute to this debate.

I would concur. Balanced, measured. This book greatly expands on Brown and Seaton's work drawing in many more examples. It is an easy read with interesting conclusions.

[pehrt]

No, looking for stories that conform to what I already believe would be a bad approach. And it would be dull. What I look forward to is to find stories that teach me something and make me surprised.

My copy of Chris Baker’s book is in the mail, I hope.

In my own book I have written about my sources and about my doubts. I have also told readers about questions I have asked to test my story. My intention is to make it possible for the reader to form an opionon of her own. It would be very interesting to hear your views on this.

Pehr

[pehrt]

Sorry, I forgot to reply to Pete.

For six of the football incidents I have seen (secondary) information where these units were.

Please write to me and I will send what I have. But it is raw, unfinished material so I do not want to post it here.

Pehr

[Fattyowls]

Pehr

Thanks so much for the offer; I have copied your email address and I will contact you.

Sometimes email addresses are harvested from the forum so you might wish to edit the post to remove yours; I wouldn't want you to get lots of spam on my account. By coincidence my copy of Chris' book on the truce has arrived this morning and I'm really looking forward to reading it. We can no doubt compare notes when your copy arrives. Thanks again.

Pete.

[Chris_Baker]

You will recognise a couple of the photos, Pete!

[Fattyowls]

You will recognise a couple of the photos, Pete!

Sure do. In keeping with the theme in the thead about the vagaries of memory in 5 years time I will be telling people I took the photographs, in 10 years time I will be claiming to have co-written the book, 10 years after that I will be claiming to have participated in the truce itself. And to have scored a hat trick.

Pete

[Derek Black]

Came across a letter by an Arbroath F.C. footballer serving in the Argyll's at the front, he wrote to the club secretary about the Christmas truce, it was published locally on the 31st December, 1914.

"... and a German officer asked one of our officers to let a football match be played on Boxing Day, but out officer said, of course, it couldn't be done, and the German officer understood."

So football gets a mention, but no kick about occurred.

Derek.

[Ghazala]

Interesting article by Valentine Lowe in The Times today.....

Truce soldiers put German sniper on their Christmas list.

The Christmas truce of 1914 was an extraordinary moment when Allied and German troops stopped killing each other and even played football together in no man’s land. However, a hitherto undiscovered letter has revealed that it was not quite the moment of peace, love and understanding that has been portrayed.

Instead British soldiers used the hiatus to gather information about a German sniper, and plotted to use it to try to kill him the next day.

The other side of the truce is disclosed in words written by a general who confessed that he did not venture out of his trenches because he feared that the enemy would be unable to resist trying to kill such a high-ranking officer.

The letter was written to his wife on Christmas day by General Walter Congreve, who won the VC in the Boer War, one of only six men in father-and-son pairs to have been awarded the honour. In it he wrote how one of his men shared a cigar with “the best shot in the German army”, an 18-year-old sniper. Having learnt where he was shooting from, they hoped they would “down him tomorrow”.

The underlying tension alluded to in the letter reflects the reality of the Christmas truce, an event so mythologised that it has even been used this year in a much-criticised TV commercial for Sainsbury’s.

Although there were numerous spontaneous truces on the Western Front, with enemy soldiers singing carols to each other and swapping gifts, in some sectors the fighting continued without let.

The letter was given by Congreve’s family to the Staffordshire county council archives in the 1970s, although its contents have only recently come to light.

The general, who led the Rifle Brigade, was positioned at British headquarters near Neuve Chapelle in northern France. He wrote: “I went to church with 2 of my battalions in an enormous factory room & after lunch took down to the N. Staffords in my old trenches at Rue du Bois Mother’s gifts of toffee, sweets, cigarettes, pencils, handkerchiefs & writing paper.

“There I found an extraordinary state of affairs — this am a German shouted out that they wanted a day’s truce & would one come out if he did; so very cautiously one of our men lifted himself above the parapet & saw a German doing the same. Both got out then more & finally all day long in that particular place they have been walking about together all day giving each other cigars & singing songs. Officers as well as men were out & the German Colonel himself was talking to one of our Captains.

“My informant, one of the men, said he had had a fine day of it & had ‘smoked a cigar with the best shot in the German army, then not more than 18. They say he’s killed more of our men than any other 12 together but I know now where he shoots from & I hope we down him tomorrow.’ I hope devoutly they will — next door the 2 battalions opposite each other were shooting away all day & so I hear it was further north, 1st R.B. playing football with the Germans opposite them — next Regiments shooting each other. I was invited to go & see the Germans myself but refrained as I thought they might not be able to resist a General.”

General Congreve lost his left hand in 1917, and after the war became Governor of Malta. He died in 1927. His son, Major Billy Congreve, who was killed on July 20, 1916, during the battle of the Somme, was awarded a posthumous VC.

[AndrewThornton]

The trouble is, the statement about the letter written by Brigadier-General Congreve V.C. about it being "undiscovered" is not strictly true. An extract from it, relating to the German sniper, is quoted on Pages 96 and 97 in "Armageddon Road" - A VC's Diary 1914-1916, by Terry Norman, published in 1982. It was good to read the letter in its more complete form though.

I came across this report the other day, (it was not undiscovered - it was always there), that may be of interest, published in The Falkirk Herald of 16 January 1915. It is based on a letter written by 3/7630 Corporal Patrick Dea, a Special Reservist:

CHRISTMAS IN THE TRENCHES.

Interesting Letter from Falkirk Soldier.

“An interesting description of how Christmas Day was spent in the trenches is contained in a letter from a Falkirk soldier, Corporal Patrick Dea, of the 2^nd Battalion of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Writing to his wife, he says:-

“I was wakened in the morning by the sound of one of my sentries singing ‘Kind, kind and gentle was she.’ I got out of my dug-out, and then had to go for water before it was light enough for the Germans to see us. They were very quiet on Christmas Day. I didn’t hear any of their ‘chiming bells’ (big guns). I got the water, and after some fun got the fire started. At ten a.m. the officer came round, along with a sergeant, and accompanied by Tommy’s best friend in the trenches (the rum) – not that we get too much of it. We toasted the officer and the sergeant and wished them both a merry Christmas. Though there were no big guns, there was plenty of hand bell ringing (rifle fire). Nothing doing until dinner-time, and then we started to get dinner ready. It wasn’t very hard, dinner consisting of tinned rations – beef, potatoes, carrots, beans and gravy, all cooked ready for eating after being heated. After that we had a nice cup of tea.

What will you think when I tell you that the Germans exchanged the compliments of the season. Shortly after dinner a party of them were seen on our left, making gestures as if they wanted to speak to us. Some of our chaps went half-way to them, and were speaking to them. Some of the Germans could speak England, and one of them had worked in Glasgow for four years. It is said that some of our boys had four-a-side with them, but I didn’t see it. It is true, though, that they actually exchanged headdress as souvenirs. I saw that myself, and some of our fellows got fags and cigars from them. After that bit of hand-shaking was past, we had tea, and by that time it was dark, and we were not being troubled with handbell-ringers (riflemen), we stood and told stories. Of course, we had to knock our feet about to keep warm. After that I went into my bunk, but my electric light switched off. It consisted of a tobacco tin, with a small hole in the lid, and a greased rag run through. So ended my first, and I hope my last, Christmas Day in the trenches.”

[Ghazala]

A memorial to the World War One Christmas Truce has been dedicated by the Duke of Cambridge. England manager Roy Hodgson joined Prince William to unveil the statue at the National Memorial Arboretum.

[JWK]

ISAF is joining in too :

http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20141216_01433635

(In Dutch only I'm afraid...... It's a Belgian newspaper)

On Christmas Eve German and British soldiers will meet on a footballfield in Afghanistan,

exactly 100 years after the famous "Christmas truce" in the trenches of the first World War.

The game will be played on a field which was used by American soldiers for American Football and Baseball games.

"Then we were enemies, now we are friends fighting on the same side" Much less chance of yellow or red cards then.