Stephen White Posted 25 September , 2004 Share Posted 25 September , 2004 Today i took a drive out from Telford to Wolverhampton Borough Cemetery on Jeffcock Road,Wolverhampton.To photograph the headstone of a WW1 casulaty,at the request of a forum member. I eventually located and photographed the said headstone.However while looking for it.I came across a large number of WW1 Headstones along the perimeter wall that runs along Jeffcock Road. They were in the undergrowth,covered in ivy,obscured by bushes and young tree's and in two cases headstones had been knocked over by the trunks of young trees that had grown up right next to them.Some of the bushes were so thick i couldn't see if there were headstones in amongst them.Judging by the amount of growth in this area it hasn't been touched for a number of years,god knows how many CWGC plots have been lost (if any). Who is responsible for these headstones,The council or The CWGC.All the stones are readable and i'd say they had been replaced in the past 10 years,so it suggests (to me anyway) that the CWGC has had some involvement at some point. It was just so sad to see them in this state. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leigh Posted 25 September , 2004 Share Posted 25 September , 2004 In one of my local cemeteries I cant find 5 of the graves that should be there. L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 25 September , 2004 Share Posted 25 September , 2004 CWGC will have an agreement with the cemetery authority that they keep the graves clear. Some do it well, some don't. The graves will be inspected on an approx. three year cycle by CWGC but getting the authorities to act can take longer. Report any such graves to CWGC's UK area office at ukaoffice@cwgc.org Leigh Ask on the same email address and CWGC will tell you the exact location within the cemetery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen White Posted 25 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 25 September , 2004 Terry Thank you for that information.I will certainly be contacting the CWGC at the address you have given.I will let you know via this thread what they have to say. I hope there is a positive outcome and that i am wrong in thinking some of the plots may have been lost to this "wilderness". Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 25 September , 2004 Share Posted 25 September , 2004 Stephen None will be lost. Undergrowth is both temporary and removable. It just needs the will to get on with it and provision of finances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Lewis Posted 25 September , 2004 Share Posted 25 September , 2004 Steven I was in the same cemetery a few weeks ago and reported to CWGC a broken headstone in the same area you spoke about (along the perimeter) I was thanked for my email,I was told they would be replacing the headstone asap. Unfortunatley I have not been back to check,did you notice whether there was a fallen headstone (broken in half) or a new one in place. I had the same shock at the undergrowth when walking around that area but I thought I might deal with one thing at a time but lets hope your enquiry will give us some information. Regards Doug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 25 September , 2004 Share Posted 25 September , 2004 Doug Well done for reporting the broken headstone. However, a timescale of 'a few weeks' is usually a little unrealistice. A few months (up to a year) can be more like it. If the stone was only snapped off at the base (common), then a simple repair can be very quick (a couple of months or so - sometimes quicker depending on various factors). However, if a new headstone is required it can take up to a year or so. They are all produced at CWGC's workshop in France and new stones obviously have to join the queue. Don't get stressed if you do not see an immediate repair. The acknowledgement you received means that the message has reached the right place and the problem will be sorted in due course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen White Posted 26 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 26 September , 2004 The stones i saw lying down (face up) where sandy around the bottom two inches or so.Almost as if they had been pulled up and then someone had laid them flat.Due to the undergrowth i didn't notice if there was a "stump" left in the ground. Doug i did not notice any brand new headstones in the area we are talking about. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 26 September , 2004 Share Posted 26 September , 2004 Stephen It is possible that you saw the first steps in a tidy up programme. The headstone would have been fitted into a concrete 'shoe' in the ground with the stone fitting into a slot in the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 26 September , 2004 Share Posted 26 September , 2004 However, if a new headstone is required it can take up to a year or so. They are all produced at CWGC's workshop in France and new stones obviously have to join the queue. According to a stonemason I spoke to, in the east of England, the headstones for UK burials are hand carved in the UK; not by the CWGC workshops in France. There is a queue, because new headstones for the latest military UK burials have priority. The 'queue' is around 3 months (from the time the mason receives authorisation) at the moment, according to my source. Each CWGC headstone takes a UK mason around two days to complete, by hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 26 September , 2004 Share Posted 26 September , 2004 Sorry RT According my informants at CWGC, all their headstones are made in France by their own workshops. I am aware of the process personally having had to wait for one to be delivered from there for a newly-recognised WW1 war grave and for a replacement stone in Brighton. It sounds like confusion again with modern Non-World War headstones which are made by stonemasons in the UK - as you say, for current military burials etc which are, of course, not CWGC responsibility. I will check again on Monday in case they have changed their policy etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Lewis Posted 26 September , 2004 Share Posted 26 September , 2004 Stephen I agree with Terry, when I went to the cemetery there were no stones out of the ground other than the one that was broken. I think what might have happened is the tidy up began post my email. Regards Doug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen White Posted 27 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 27 September , 2004 I have in the past 10 minutes sent a e-mail to the CWGC,to the address Terry gave,bringing this matter to their attention.I will as soon as i get a reply,let you know what they say. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 27 September , 2004 Share Posted 27 September , 2004 To check the points made above about where CWGC headstones are manufactured, I asked them this morning to clarify the point. They came back with this informative reply which explains the process... "No headstones are made in the UK. The process [headstone ordering] involves raising the necessary archive documents here to determine what should be engraved upon the headstone. This is then passed to our works department who use a CAD system to lay the work out. This is then transmitted to the facility in France where the machine engraves the headstone. If necessary, some finishing work will be completed by hand before the headstone is shipped to the relevant area and then erected. The Incisograph can engrave about ten headstones a day if all goes well." The stones to which RT's stonemason was referring were certainly Non-World War headstones made to private or MoD order. As we have discussed several times on the Forum, these look very similar to CWGC war grave headstones but with a different pattern top. From the above figure, if the machine is always working flat out, about 2,500 headstones can be manufactured per year allowing for weekends and public holidays - less with the deduction of breakdown/maintenance time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 27 September , 2004 Share Posted 27 September , 2004 Terry, thanks for clearing this up. I think you are right, and the mason I spoke to is confused. I confess, though, I am STILL baffled. I can't believe that it is more cost effective for the MoD to have Non-World headstones made in the UK. By the sounds of it, the CWGC can make one headstone per hour, whereas a mason in England needs two days (according to the mason I spoke to). The cost of a Non-World headstone, from the UK, is running at approximately £1000, with a cross and inscription. The delivery charges are also high, compared to the CWGC which (surely?) gets a better rate, or uses its own vehicles to collect and deliver headstones from France to the whole of the UK. Why is the CWGC not producing headstones, for Non-World headstones, in France...?? Surely this is the one field where the CWGC should be competitive, and raise much needed funds, using its high-tec (compared to a chisel) machinery. I don't wish to put any stone masons out of a job but, if there was a choice, I'd rather some of my tax money went to the CWGC. Seems a little silly to me, when the CWGC has the infrastructure and expertise.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 27 September , 2004 Share Posted 27 September , 2004 RT I quite agree. In fact, it was only last year that I found out that CWGC did NOT produce the Non-World War headstones (as a result of a query on the Forum). They are so identical in every respect except the top edge that the thought of someone else doing them didn't occur to me. However, now that I think about it, I have never seen a NWW headstone which has obviously been machine-produced like the new CWGC stones! I suspect that the reasoning behind it is the good old Royal Charter again. It severly limits what CWGC can do - accepting contracts for cemetery maintenance from certain authorities (eg MoD) being so allowed. I expect setting up a headstone production arm for outsiders is deemed to be outside their remit. It also occurs to me that the economics of central headstone production in your own workshops are understandable for Europe but does it still stack up elsewhere? Are new headstones for New Zealand or Hong Kong still made in France? And where are the Dutch stool type stones as used in Gallipoli and the Far East manufactured? I have just asked those questions also! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 27 September , 2004 Share Posted 27 September , 2004 Now a more complete picture of the sourcing of CWGC headstones. After further questioning, the picture is not quite so simple as 'all made in France'. France manufactures all headstones worldwide including the Gallipoli markers except... 1) A contractor in Italy supplies the Middle East and Mediterranean area. 2) The bronze plaques used on the markers in the Far East are made in Australia. 3) Granite headstones as used in NZ, Canada, Scotland etc ARE manufactured in the UK - mostly in Scotland. They are also manufactured locally in Canada and NZ. Presumably this stone is not within the capabilities of the CWGC facility in France. I think that gets to the bottom of it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 27 September , 2004 Share Posted 27 September , 2004 Thanks for that, Terry. Did the CWGC give you an answer on why it can't/doesn't tender for headstones of 'new' Tri-service casualties....?? If you look at http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/deaths/intro.html it shows that in 2003, there were 170 deaths. It seems to me that the CWGC is missing out on @ £150,000 annual contract - assuming that the next of kin choose a Non-World headstone which I am sure most do on grounds of cost (instead of a private burial). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 27 September , 2004 Share Posted 27 September , 2004 RT I didn't ask but will do so. However, I fully anticipate that such an activity will be deemed as not being in line with their Charter obligations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 27 September , 2004 Share Posted 27 September , 2004 Out of interest, where can I see what the 1917 Royal Charter (and the 1967 ammendments) contain. Is there an online site, or do I have to contact the CWGC for a copy...?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 28 September , 2004 Share Posted 28 September , 2004 RT I have emailed you a copy. The consolidating Supplemental Charter was in 1964. There had been other additions in 1921, 1924, 1931, 1940,1941,1944,1948 and 1960. The original was, of course, in 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen White Posted 11 October , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2004 I have in the past 10 minutes sent a e-mail to the CWGC,to the address Terry gave,bringing this matter to their attention.I will as soon as i get a reply,let you know what they say. Stephen Although i appreciate that the CWGC are very busy people.But it's now been 14 day's since i e-mailed them and no response.Is this normal for them to take so long ??. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 11 October , 2004 Share Posted 11 October , 2004 Not an unusual time span. They will have passed the query to the area inspector and are probably awaiting a report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen White Posted 11 October , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2004 Not an unusual time span. They will have passed the query to the area inspector and are probably awaiting a report back. Thanks Terry. I was hoping you'd pick up on my query,with your experience i knew you'd have a good idea on this one.I was just getting a little worried they may have forgotten about it.But it seem's from your comments this is not the case. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 11 October , 2004 Share Posted 11 October , 2004 It is always possible that your query has been mislaid but I suspect not! This is not an urgent query (I know you will think differently) and they are certain to have asked the inspector to check it out within his schedule. I would follow it up if you don't hear within two months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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