tumbi1 Posted 22 October , 2013 Share Posted 22 October , 2013 Hello all, I am sure this will be an easy question for a few people, but I am still a bit wet behind the ears. I was recently in Adelaide Cemetery at Villers-Bretonneux when I saw this Australian grave with a cross type I have seen on many British graves but not on an Australian one - the regimental badge is within a large 'open' cross instead of above a small neat cross. The second picture is the standard type. My first thought was a religious difference, but since I have never seen another Australian headstone like it, and I have seen hundreds, that doesn't sound likely. Many thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyH Posted 22 October , 2013 Share Posted 22 October , 2013 This was covered really well only a few weeks ago : http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=200130 BillyH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 22 October , 2013 Share Posted 22 October , 2013 1. Unusual headstone.JPG Did TS Warren's stone look to be a fairly recent replacement ? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frev Posted 23 October , 2013 Share Posted 23 October , 2013 Hi tumbi1....and welcome to the forum... Apparently in the case of Australian headstones (Canadian etc) - this is most likely an error - as discussed here by Terry Denham in 2009: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=122654 Interestingly, I've been to Adelaide Cemetery 3 times & never actually seen this headstone........I'll definitely be pointing it out to everyone on my next visit!! Cheers, Frev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tumbi1 Posted 23 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2013 Hi tumbi1....and welcome to the forum... Apparently in the case of Australian headstones (Canadian etc) - this is most likely an error - as discussed here by Terry Denham in 2009: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=122654 Interestingly, I've been to Adelaide Cemetery 3 times & never actually seen this headstone........I'll definitely be pointing it out to everyone on my next visit!! Cheers, Frev Thanks Frev, this is a great forum as everyone is so knowledgeable. This was my 3rd visit and I only saw it this time I have never seen an Australian one like it - I have seen odd Canadian and NZ ones, so maybe they are mistakes. I still haven't read a definitive explanation, except maybe that the larger crosses are cheaper to engrave? Cheers, Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tumbi1 Posted 23 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2013 1. Unusual headstone.JPG Did TS Warren's stone look to be a fairly recent replacement ? Tom G'day Tom, I'm not sure it is that recent as it has a bit of greenery on the top half of the face, so it has probably been there for a while. It does look a bit newer than the comparison one though. Seeing as it is the only Australian one like this I have seen though, as pointed out by others, it is probably a mistake. Cheers, Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 23 October , 2013 Share Posted 23 October , 2013 ... I'm not sure it is that recent as it has a bit of greenery on the top half of the face, so it has probably been there for a while. ... Mark - it was certainly there in June 2010 when I took this photo - the grave ref is 1.A.7. - its the headstone which I have marked with a red dot, back row, left hand side. A closer view. I have searched all other photos I have of Adelaide and all the other Australian headstones I can see have the small cross. I do have an idea as to what might have happened here - if I pm you an e-mail address could you mail me as high a resolution of the stone as you have ? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter and Ellen Posted 24 October , 2013 Share Posted 24 October , 2013 Hi, I have been guiding for six years over here and have seen hundreds done in this style, in many different cemeteries. So, my opinion is that this is not a mistake but rather, a different style. My thought is that a man, or a small team, were in a location that was engraving headstones in this style. I suspect that their workplace would be away from the cemetery where they appear otherwise, there would be strong conformance at particular cemeteries, rather than scattered as they are. I suspect that they would have stopped using this style as it caused so much extra work, therefore, took longer to engrave. It also would have caused a lack of conformity...perhaps an issue, or not! They are not new or replacement headstones as all machine-engraved headstones correct the error where they used "Forces" instead of "Force" in the Badge. It was the "Australian Imperial Force" not "Australian Imperial Forces" as used by the original stonemasons. I suspect that the CWGC today, would machine-engrave headstones in the same style as they were originally engraved with the small correction as just mentioned. Where did the "Forces" error come from? My guess is it was caused by their hat badge, that had "Australian Commonwealth Military Forces" on it. Have a look at the badge used on the Australian Corps Memorial at Le Hamel. It is their hat badge that has been used at that memorial. Regards, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 24 October , 2013 Share Posted 24 October , 2013 ... I have been guiding for six years over here and have seen hundreds done in this style, in many different cemeteries. So, my opinion is that this is not a mistake but rather, a different style. ... Peter - could I just clarify - you have seen hundreds of Australian's headstones with the broad cross behind the badge ? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter and Ellen Posted 24 October , 2013 Share Posted 24 October , 2013 Peter - could I just clarify - you have seen hundreds of Australian's headstones with the broad cross behind the badge ? Tom Hi Tom, No, all sorts. Aussies, New Zealanders and, many different British Regiments. As best I can tell, there is no pattern to it. Regards, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 24 October , 2013 Share Posted 24 October , 2013 Hi Tom, No, all sorts. Aussies, New Zealanders and, many different British Regiments. As best I can tell, there is no pattern to it. Regards, Peter Peter - this topic maybe needs to be nudged back "on-track" - sure there are thousands upon thousands of headstones bearing the Broad Cross illustrated in post # 1 - but the question specifically relates to Australian's headstones. Have you have seen "hundreds" of Australian's headstones with the broad cross behind the badge ? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter and Ellen Posted 24 October , 2013 Share Posted 24 October , 2013 Hi Tom, No. Regards, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 24 October , 2013 Share Posted 24 October , 2013 Hi Tom, No. Regards, Peter Peter- I have something of a "confession" to make here, - I spend a not inconsiderable amount of time looking at British headstones, but am nowhere near as au-fait with the headstones of ANZAC, Canadian, South African and other non-British soldiers. No disrespect there, its just that my interest is with the British units. The inference early in this topic is that the use of the broad cross on an Australian's headstone is an aberration. My own casual observations lead me to think that that is probably correct, - can anybody cite examples of the broad cross on other Australian's headstones ? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 24 October , 2013 Share Posted 24 October , 2013 Cannot see any other Australian examples, but there is at least one New Zealand of similar design Click Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Woodger Posted 25 October , 2013 Share Posted 25 October , 2013 Hi In the 181 Somme cemeteries that I have studied I have come across at least 4 of these Australians. In the case of 2 of them I checked their Service records but could find nothing there in the way of an input from the next of Kin. If it really matters I could look them up! Aussieinarras, I think you have got the Force or Forces backwards. The original headstones were force which is what the man attested to and died for. The recent replacements are Forces at the request of the Australian authorities which, to my mind unfortunately, CWGC agreed. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tumbi1 Posted 25 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 25 October , 2013 Hi In the 181 Somme cemeteries that I have studied I have come across at least 4 of these Australians. In the case of 2 of them I checked their Service records but could find nothing there in the way of an input from the next of Kin. If it really matters I could look them up! Aussieinarras, I think you have got the Force or Forces backwards. The original headstones were force which is what the man attested to and died for. The recent replacements are Forces at the request of the Australian authorities which, to my mind unfortunately, CWGC agreed. Peter Hello Peter, 181 Somme cemeteries! I have looked around about a dozen or so in the limited amount of time I have been over there, so I am lucky I found this one! I can only guess then that they are mistakes, as would be the NZ & Canadian ones I have seen. Cheers, Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Woodger Posted 25 October , 2013 Share Posted 25 October , 2013 Mark Not quite, New Zealand chose the broad cross as the norm, the only cases where it is not used are for Jewish, Christians whose NOK requested no use of the cross, Memorials stones such as "Buried near this spot", Known (or believed) to be buried in this cemetery" and grave lost or destroyed. The Canadian norm is the maple leaf in a circle with "thin" cross. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 25 October , 2013 Admin Share Posted 25 October , 2013 Looking at my copy of Major and Mrs Holts guide it says there is no significance in the design variation Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tumbi1 Posted 26 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2013 Mark Not quite, New Zealand chose the broad cross as the norm, the only cases where it is not used are for Jewish, Christians whose NOK requested no use of the cross, Memorials stones such as "Buried near this spot", Known (or believed) to be buried in this cemetery" and grave lost or destroyed. The Canadian norm is the maple leaf in a circle with "thin" cross. Peter Thanks Peter, I must have thought the NZ ones were odd because there are so few of them as a percentage of the total and I haven't seen many. Cheers, Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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