Kitchener Bn men drawn off to fill Regular Bns in 1914

[Guest]

Martin,

Could I prevail upon your kindness to post the RWK numbers including the depot.

Presumably reservists from the Empire making their way back to their regiment would not be included in these figures?

Best regards,

Matthew

Matthew, as a quick solution the complete table is posted in the 'About this Website' under 'A place to play' which is the second tab from the bottom of the home page...it is where I tested posting the table. I can just read it on my iPad so hopefully you can grab the data on the RWK from it. It will not be there for long as the Mods delete the posts in that area.

To answer your second question - I think the reservists returning from Empire would be an insignificant number in the great scheme of things. I have seen one battalion in India manage to recruit 20 men in India who had taken their discharge in India. I suspect that this was fairly common although in small numbers, and I suspect ex-regulars overseas were probably more inclined to join the locally raised units. There is evidence that somewhere in the region of 20% of the AIF were in fact born in Britain. I suspect that figure would include more than a few ex-regulars from the British Army.

I am not sure what the regulatory requirements were for men with reserve obligations who moved overseas. Clearly the 20 men in India took a practical route and given there were 74 battalions overseas in various stations I think similar options would have been open to some expatriate ex-regulars across the globe. I have done some limited research on the Reserve requirements of battalions returning from overseas and in a small sample of 6 battalions where this issue is mentioned, the average requirement foe each battalion was for 282 men who typically joined when the battalions returned home prior to deploying to France.

Regardless, I think the numbers of overseas men would be relatively small when measured against the tens of thousands of Army Reservists.

MG

[Muerrisch]

Grumpy - I am pretty sure I transcribed it verbatim. The originals definitely state "permanent". I will post copies of the originals on my return. It is of course possible that a clerk typing up the tables chose his own words. They are not printed docs, just typed documents for the recruiting committee meetings if the other documents are any indication. The other documents in the same file would strongly indicate they were used in meetings at the very highest level of the people with responsibility for recruiting. For example there are notes discussing the possibility of pushing the 10th (Irish) Div back into K2 due to the slow pace of recruiting in Ireland - decisions that would only have taken place at the highest level, so if there was confusion, it went right to the top.

I am away in Rhosneigr all weekend some distance from my files so I can't check until Monday. I think there is a separate set of documents listing the troops at the depots which also splits out the staff from the recruits. It will be interesting to see how they described/labelled the Depot staff.

MG

Martin, I started that particular hare because I suddenly realised that I had never seen a Depot Establishment! The extracts from KR and SRR make it clear that the Depot Establishment was in fact one sole regimental major!

Everyone else "at" the Depot had been posted to/ attached to the 3rd SR battalion.

I pray in evidence the Army List Aug 1914, RWF. All the following had regular commissions.

Major Hay "commanding depot".

Captains Stockwell, Gwyther, Lloyd 3rd battalion

Lts Stable, Parry 3rd battalion.

I have no doubt that officers and men at the Depot referred to going to the depot, going from the depot etc!

This is no big deal and bordering on semantics and I wouldn't waste any sleep over it.

Just a reminder to us of how anxious the army was to cross every T and dot every i, and a reminder to me that once the balloon went up such fine distinctions went out the window, because every officer who could manage it blagged his way to the front, never mind such concepts as the depot and the 3rd battalion! Hay, Stockwell and Stable were at the front by mid-October, and Stable was very soon dead.

SRR 17. during the non-training period two companies of SR battalions will act as admin coys for depot duties, all officers below rank of major, and men, both regulars and special reservists, doing duty at the depot will be borne on the strength of these coys for admin purposes.

SRR 365. In peace the officers and soldiers of the regular establishment of the reserve battalion or battalions quartered in the various depot barracks constitute the depot of each regiment of the infantry of the line. It is to be clearly understood that these officers and soldiers , although forming the regimental depot, are posted or attached to the reserve battalion and not to the depot

[Guest]

Looking at the long list of 101 Special Reserve and Extra Reserve battalions I noticed two interesting things;

1. Many of the Special Reserve battalions had come up to strengths slightly higher than 2,000 which is consistent with Peter Simkins comments in "Kitchener's Army" that once K1 had been formed, the SR battalions would be brought up to strength of 2,000 before K2 was formed. This, according to Simkins was decided on 27th Aug 1914. Any further surplus would then be used for the formation of K2. This confirms the view that the SR had effectively been denuded of its best trained men to bring the regular battalions up to strength and provide cadres for Service Battalions (see Bowman and Connelly "The Edwardian Army") combined with the realisation that the SR would need far more men in the immediate future than their establishment of 606 ORs.

The data on the 5th and 12th Sep 1914 is a snapshot of this critical transition. Roughly a fifth of the battalions had complied with the instruction by 5th Sep and the remainder were on their way with the notable exception of the Irish battalions and their structural (politically driven) impediments to recruiting the required numbers. Resolving the individual regimental numbers against the K1 battalion data for the same dates (see post #8) also helps clarify the ebb and flow of recruits over these critical dates. Clearly at one extreme by the 5th Sep some Regiments had formed a K1 battalion, filled the SR battalion to 2,000 from surplus men and were already starting to form the K2 battalion. At the other extreme some Regiments were still short on all three counts.

This intrigues me. If Kitchener men from the recruiting pool were being sent to the SR battalions, these men were more likely to get to the front line earlier. One might reasonably assume there was some kind of selection process to choose K men who made up the SR battalions to 2,000. I have not seen any reference to this decision process.

2. By September 1914 the location of some of the SR battalions were many miles from the depots. The 3rd (Special Reserve) Bn Sherwood Foresters (Notts & Derby) Regt was located in Plymouth, the 3rd (Special Reserve) Bn North Staffordshire Regt was in Devon and so on.... Which raises questions as to how the Depots and the SR battalions coordinated and in particular where the depot staff were.

This is slowly coming together.

Any mistakes are mine. Excuse typos and damn predictive spelling.

MG

[bootneck]

I am finding this an interesting thread and wanted to add the following data regarding the 1^st Battalion, East Surrey Regiment.

Using a copy of the typescript copy of the 1914 Star Roll for the battalion’s rank & file, held at the Surrey History Centre, I have been annotating it as part of a larger project looking at this unit’s personnel during the war. Using the disembarkation dates on their MiC’s gives the following totals of men arriving at various dates in France between 13 August & 23 November 1914.

1100 NCOs & men disembarked between 13 & 16 August 1914

28 between 25 & 30 August

316 between 4 & 16 September

97 between 19 & 23 September

67 between 7 & 22 October

76 between 26 & 31 October

41 between 5 & 23 November

There are another 14 men who so far I have not been able to possibly identify; some of them are quite possibly men whose names and/or numbers have been mis-transcribed. 10 of these men landed with the 1^st batch and the other 4 during October. There were another 4 men who appear on the roll who qualify for the 1914-15 Star and I need to visit Kew to check the 1914 Star Roll.

The next step is checking the war diary to tie in casualties and when the various drafts joined the battalion. As far as I can see there appears to be no material at Surrey History Centre tying in where these drafts originated from; however, 2 Officers from the 3^rd Battalion along with 201 Other Ranks joined the battalion on 24 September so it is possible some of them came from the 9^th Battalion.

However, more work needs to be done.

Bootneck

[Graham Stewart]

From what I have read I find the exercise commendable, but all Statistics have to be approached with caution and to state that drafts were being drawn off from Kitcheners units to replace Regular casualties early on, is in itself a very 'broad' statement. Overall you have to have an understanding of the Army as it was then and how it actually worked and this can only be gleaned through reading ReguIations, Orders and Instructions and as it stands I can find no Instruction or Order confirming the transfer of men from New Army units to the Regulars in 1914 or 1915.

The 'Return' Stactics are fantastic, but they don't give the reality of recruitment as it was County by County, because the reality was, that in some areas and especially the North & Midlands with their large industrialised populations, thousands of men were drained off to fill out regiments in rural counties which had no chance of keeping up with what the War Office demanded. This in itself can cause the Returns to be flawed, as they don't actually show where the recruits are coming from to the Depots, etc. A briliant study of this was conducted by Victor Wallace Germaines in his 1930's book "The Kitchener Armies".

I myself can only speak can only speak for the North East and in particular the Northumberlands, but their is certainly no evidence from any of the Kitchener units raised by the N.F., that men were drained off to supplement the Regulars prior to 1916. Infact if was the opposite way around, wherebye among the thousands of 'Volunteers' coming through the Depots, there were hundreds of ex-Regulars, who were time expired from the Reserve, all of whom were renumbered on re-enlisting. Those who had 'previously' held rank, were infact sent to Kitchener units in order to bring them up to the required standard by forming NCO cadres. I also have no doubt in my mind that those ex-soldiers who re-enlisted at a later date, would have subsequently been re-directed back to a Regular Battalion, once their re-training was completed.

Among those also being re-enlisted into the New Armies were National Reservists, many of whom were ex-servicemen. The N.R., although adminstered by the Territorial Force, was open to all who wished to join and as a result in May 1915, ex-NCO's were actively encouraged by County Associaitions, to re-enlist into the New Army Battalions for General Service

The Depots themselves were merely holding units, initially sending men to those K1 battalions as required, but as things became more organised, they were then sent to the Special Reserve Battalions, who in most cases were expanded to accommodate the influx - in which men were then graded regarding their age and training ability.

Mention has also been made of the Permanent Staff at the Depot, however are you aware that 'every' pre-War Special Reserve and Territorial Battalion had a Regular 'Permanent Staff' attached to it and in the case of the Territorials, nearly all of the 'acting Sgt Majors' were Regulars, who accompanied these Battalions overseas. The remainder of the P.S. were I believe recalled to their Regular Depot's.

If I have digressed or taken away some of the shine from these post's, then please fogive me, but I have always been wary when looking at recruiting statistics and the Great War, as one of the greatest sources for recruitment are your local newspapers, an often over looked source. As an example of how statistics can be manipulated, then please consider this - to fill out their units the Gloucestershire Regiment, Worcestshire Regiment and in particular the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers all openly recruited in the North East. The latter in particular very succesfully to the point that they came back for more - all of whom were sent the the Enniskillen Depot.

[Jim Hastings]

Hi Martin

Re: If Kitchener men from the recruiting pool were being sent to the SR battalions, these men were more likely to get to the front line earlier. One might reasonably assume there was some kind of selection process to choose K men who made up the SR battalions to 2,000

which is very interesting, I wonder, beyond those who already had military service, if it was age bracketed? One local man that I know was sent in the early batch to 2nd Sussex was a young school master, quickly made L/Cpl

[Graham Stewart]

Of interest War Office Instruction 102 of December 1914 defining how men of the S.R. & E.R., should be categorised when supplying reinforcements to Regular Bns of the E.F.

[Muerrisch]

As to the SR battalion disappearing in war to guard a port or railway, and being miles from the depot, clearly

"SRR 365. In peace the officers and soldiers of the regular establishment of the reserve battalion or battalions quartered in the various depot barracks constitute the depot of each regiment of the infantry of the line. It is to be clearly understood that these officers and soldiers , although forming the regimental depot, are posted or attached to the reserve battalion and not to the depot".

required a solution, or the poor old major would be a tad busy. One assumes/ hopes that the two admin companies of the SR remained with him.

Surprisingly, there is nothing relevant in Mobilisation Regs 1914 regarding the depot.

The expansion of 1914 and the "Kitcheners" were without precedent and apparently unplanned-for, and I am left thinking that depots/SR muddled through this period, tired, living on fags and tea, and cursing the lack of planning. Perhaps there are as many truths of the matter as there were depots. Regimental histories are not usually very interested in depots, but third battalion scrap books/ logs/ diaries/ records of service may be a better source.

Another rich subject for study is the tapering and eventual ending of SR men on SR terms of course.

[Graham Stewart]

The restructuring of the S.R. as per W.O.I. 2 of September 1914

And the remainder of the Instruction.

[Muerrisch]

Regimental Records RWF make it clear that the 3rd SR battalion had left the depot on 7 July for 27 days annual training at Porthcawl, and was then ordered on 31st July to Pembroke Dock as a defence force.

The depot as such was more or less empty, and the QM and eight drummers hastened there to prepare things, followed on 1st August by the 3rd battalion regular officers Hay, Stockwell, Crawshay, Tringham, and Stable "to prepare for the expected mobilisation".

The rump of the battalion joined them at Wrexham on 9th August.

This reinforces my belief that there was no permanent establishment for the depot and indeed even the CO Depot, Hay, was away with the third battalion when matters heated up.

Depots were places, not organisations, and seem to have become irrelevant other than as storehouses and distribution centres soon after mobilisation.

[westkent78]

Martin,

Got it. Thank you very much.

Very interesting and informative thread. I'll have to work up some number son the RWK to contribute.

Best regards,

Matthew

[Guest]

There is a grey area surrounding Depots, SR battalions, and Extra R battalions. It might help if I quoted from KR 1912 amd. to Aug 1914, and Special reserve Regs 1911[sRR].

Before that, I think it fair to say that an infantry regimental depot was the spiritual permanent home in the county or recruiting area, held the ark of the covenant ie. the colours when the battalions were on active service, the silverware, and the medals of men on service. Among other tasks it issued regimental numbers to recruits and ran the recruiting and medical and attestation process.

The OC was always a regular major.

Surprisingly a depot did not have an Establishment, no officers or men were posted to it, and it was just an administrative convenience and a load of buildings and artefacts.

Perhaps reference in the foregoing postings to staff OF the depots should be construed as AT the depots? As for "Permanent Establishment" of the depot, perhaps the army confused itself?

Grumpy - I promised to revert on the subject of 'Permanent Establishment of the Depot'. As you can see from the attached, this is exactly what the official printed returns stated. There are probably a dozen or so pages of similar documents in the files, all printed rather than handwritten. I am not disputing the ACIs etc, and I have zero doubt that the single Major was the only person on establishment. I suspect for the purposes of the Returns, whoever chose the column heading was essentially trying to convey the number of Reservists available and not include any regulars be they the single Major or any other Regulars at the Depot at the time.

MG

Edit: There are three ten-page documents in WO162/4 "Establishments and Strengths" and all thre documents have five pages each with the same column heading of "On Permanent Est. of Depot": The document for 29th Aug 1914 is typewriten and the documents for the 5th and 12th Sep 1914 are both printed. In the Top right hand corner of the last two is.

91

Gen. No.

2132

(A.G. 1)

Which I assume is the Adjutant General's department.

....

[Guest]

As promised here is the Return data for the Depots, Special Reserve Battalions and Extra Reserve Battalions for the 29th Aug, 5th Sep and 12 Sep 1914 which covers the peak period of recruiting in the Great War. The underlying data is from WO 162 at The national Archives. Please note this is the largest size I can achieve with the limitations of file sizes on the GWF.

MG

[Jim Hastings]

Brilliant, thank you Martin, this is excellent, your efforts have provided such a gem of an asset to forum members

[Guest]

Jim - As my parting shot on this thread, here's the official Returns data for the R Sussex Regt. I will post any further thoughts on the SR on Grumpy's thread as it is pertinent to the SR rather than Kitchener's Army and Regular Battalions. Regards MG

[Granite-Yorkie]

Graham Stewart, where can I get access to all of these War Office Instructions, as I find them fascinating?

[Graham Stewart]

Graham Stewart, where can I get access to all of these War Office Instructions, as I find them fascinating?

As far as I'm aware the only complete run of both War Office Instructions and Army Council Instructions, can be found in the National Archive. I do know that the odd collector such as myself has the odd original copy of those mentioned, but the reality seems that most copies held by units/establishments were eventually destroyed.

[Granite-Yorkie]

Looks like a trip to London then, it'd be cheaper than having them all copied and sent to me.

[JMB1943]

"1269. only two of the four most senior may be married."

This quote is from post #47 of this thread.

Can anyone provide the DEFINITIVE rationale for this; if not, then an intuitive rationale would also be interesting.

Regards,

JMB

[Muerrisch]

Deduced: neither definitive nor intuitive.

To ensure that the tone of the Mess was maintained ...... married usually lived out.

.

In my time in service Messes [mostly RAF] this was a perennial problem. Single senior officers living-in helped tone and conduct no end

I need to be careful not to conflate now with then, but if married quarters were indeed available, the rule in question would ensure that the few married quarters available were not hogged by the senior officers.

[Keith_history_buff]

On 09/10/2013 at 15:44, Muerrisch said:

Some responses to the above flood of info. and comment. I expect the forum will b*gger up the tabulation as usual.

I don't think Martin meant to say " Typically SR battalions had more than double a Regular Service Battalions' war establishment, so initially there was a decent pool of trained Reservists". but if so, it was not the case, in that an SR battalion at full strength was only 606 SR all ranks and 98 regulars all ranks, whereas the WE for regulars was just over 1000 all ranks. The expansion of the SR establishment took place AFTER declaration of war and clearly the new men were not trained. A typical announcement was ACI 288 of 30 Aug 1914 authorising SR unit expansion to 2000 all ranks.

Regarding a soldier's number, yes, time-expired men of all categories who enlisted were to be issued a new number in whatever series their category belonged. This was the invariable rule, not necessarily invariably obeyed. The one major exception was historical ....... the clumsy 1908 retention by some men ex-Militia or ex-VF who "transferred" to the SR or the TF respectively.

 

ENLISTMENT CRITERIA FOR OTHER RANKS

[Snip]

  

On 08/01/2015 at 15:18, Guest said:

Changes in terms of enlistment from Grumpy. With thanks. MG

 

Reproduced for the sake of completeness

[Keith_history_buff]

Some excellent primary source material in these two prior posts in this thread:

On 11/10/2013 at 15:31, Graham Stewart said:

The restructuring of the S.R. as per W.O.I. 2 of September 1914

[snip of the two image files]

And the remainder of the Instruction.

 

  

On 11/10/2013 at 14:00, Graham Stewart said:

[snip of image]

Of interest War Office Instruction 102 of December 1914 defining how men of the S.R. & E.R., should be categorised when supplying reinforcements to Regular Bns of the E.F.

[K_H_B: Of particular interest is that the men in the battalion are serving under various terms of engagement, be it Army Reserve and recalled, pre-war enlistment as Regular and recovering from wounds, Special Reserve 6 year engagement, Special Reserve reengagement for 1 year, "Kitchener men" who have engaged either (a) between 6 August 1914 and 7 November 1914, or (b) since 7 November 1914.
 

Terms of service are an irrelevance, prior experience and age group are more important.]

 

 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

I have been spending time poring over this thread, having had something of a eureka moment. Up to now, I have understood how Special Reserve men who had re-enlisted since the declaration of hostilities would have ended up on the 1914 Star roll, documenting their presence at the First Battle of Ypres. It has puzzled me how those men enlisting under Regular terms (General Service) for the duration of the war - "Kitchener men" - have likewise ended up with their names, and their distinct service numbers, likewise documented on the 1914 Star roll.

This thread provides the answer. I had not thought about a delineation between those men with prior military experience, and those with no experience, who were enlisting for the duration of the war.

How interesting that there was this "Manpower waterfall" of K1 staffing as first priority, reserve battalion staffing as second priority, and then K2 as third priority. To what extent could have K1 men been cherry-picked, when it came to finding those who had reenlisted as higher priority for posting to the reserve battalion? I guess that hard work would be required in identifying "Kitchener men" on the medal rolls who served with the 1st and 2nd regular battalions, and looking to determine their prior military service. 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

 

On 08/10/2013 at 17:43, Guest said:

Jim - the files really relate to the raising of the Kitchener Battalions and dealing with the massive influx of volunteers. It does not go into later detail past the raising of K3.

Something to consider. On mobilisation the Regular Bns at Home were (on average) 570 men below strength for a number of reasons. The Overseas battalions despite nominally being up to strength also needed over 200 men each on average as they handed back men too young for active service and men who were unfit for active service. The Army Reserve and the Special Reserve made up the difference and the SR battalions absorbed the excess men that the depots could not cope with. Typically SR battalions has more than double a Regular Service Battalions' war establishment, so initially there was a decent pool of trained Reservists.

The first wave of reinforcements for the BEF came from the reservists. A half-trained man was not particularly useful so I think it very unlikely that many (any?) Kitchener recruits were drafted into regular battalions before mid 1915 .

When Kitchener battalions were raised, they were essentially raw recruits in the main.

[snip]
I believe the Reservists and the SR battalions managed to keep the Regulars supplied in 1914 and early 1915. After Loos I suspect supply became much tighter and of course the recognition of this was the introduction of Conscription in Jan 1916. It is after this date I suspect we will see the first evidence of Kitchener battalions being plundered for reinforcements for the 1st and 2nd Bns of the regular Army.

[Snip]

MG

 

  

On 08/10/2013 at 21:06, Jim Hastings said:

I have been doing some digging myself: from CWGC, SDGW and resulting MIC checks I can see that the vast majority of G-prefixed men allocated to 2nd Sussex embarked on 11th Jan 1915,
(although there was one, G/1712 Pte (soon to be L/Cpl) Henry Tippett who embarked on 29th November 1914 - as Grumpy suggested above, he must have been exceptional reasons for him being posted there so soon - he was killed in the January, so had been promoted in less than 2 months - be great to know his story).
The first casualties for G-prefixed men occurred on 29th and 30th Jan 1915, when the 'Keep' at Guinchy held by the Bn was heavily attacked. Tracing back through the 2nd Sussex WD, for the entry on the 13th Jan :

"A draft of 210 arrived ... These went straight into the trenches when they arrived from Annequin where they had billeted the night before. All Kitchener’s August recruits. They seemed to be a good lot"

Interestingly all of the Army Numbers of the casualties were higher than G/1200, as per Paul Reed's observations about the number system for 7th Sussex

So, it can maybe be inferred that when the nucleus of 7th Sussex moved from Chichester to Sobraon Brks in Colchester on 21st August 1914, those recruits left in Chichester were 'earmarked' for 2nd Sussex or for K2 (8th Sussex) (and 7th history does say that "the ultimate surplus of recruits were ultimately drafted to form the 8th Bn")

The depot must have been mayhem, but it looks as though they managed to get 200 odd men trained and out to the front in about 4 months

So men might have been taken from 9th East Surrey to bring 1st Bn up to strength, but this was not the case for the Royal Sussex

[snip]

All the best

Jim

  

On 08/10/2013 at 22:11, Guest said:

I suspect (but cannot yet prove) that the (few?) men from the Kitchener battalions who were accelerated through to serving with the regulars before the statutory training were either ex-Regulars or time expired Reservists who had rejoined.

I think (and others may either confirm or deny) that an OR would receive a new number on joining a battalion, even if he was an ex regular ...which might (if I am right) suggest that trying to prove that Kitchener Battalion men who served with Regulars after just a few weeks (based on their Army Numbers) might be a challenging starting point. My point is that Kitchener battalions would certainly contain men who had served previously, and some of these may have been accelerated through the system and their Army numbers would not necessarily reflect their previous service. This is only my conjecture and I may well be off mark.

To me it simply does not make sense that an army flush with trained reservists would send out untrained men to regular battalions. I have no doubt it happened, but there will be some underlying explanation why some Kitchener men were sent out early. I suspect their numbers would be insignificant in the great scheme of things.

Any mistakes are mine.

MG

  

On 09/10/2013 at 17:35, Guest said:

Grumpy - my wording was not clear and as you rightly point out, it gives the wrong impression of what I was trying to say.... which should have been;

" Typically SR battalions [once they had taken in the surplus men] had more than double [the equivalent] of a Regular Service Battalion's [nominal] war establishment [of roughly 1,000 ORs] so initially there was a decent pool of trained Reservists"
which seemed rather long winded....

the tacit inference was that the SR battalions expanded to over 2,000 men in many cases after they started taking in men, which roughly speaking is double the War Establishment of a regular battalion for overseas. I was really just trying to put some context to the numbers i.e. an SR battalion in early Sep 1914 had in many cases enough men to fill two regular battalions (once they were trained) and this was after the K1 had been filled and most of K2.

On 5th Sep 1914 the 101 Special Reserve and Extra Reserve battalions each had (on average) 1,403 ORs including 23 battalions with over 2,000 ORs. These figures included "Other Ranks, trained men" and "Recruits under training" The aggregate split was 59.7% trained men and 40.3% Recruits under training implying (on average) the SR and ER battalions had 854 trained men and 549 recruits under training on 5th Sep 1914.

The 5th (SR) Bn Middlesex Regt had the highest number with 2,151 ORs on this date... the 3rd Royal Welsh Fusiliers at Wrexham had the second highest with 2,147 ORs. The 3rd SR battalion of the Royal Sussex at Dover had 1,196 ORs on the same date... Source is WO 162.

Edit. I also have the complete data for 12th Sep where the average number of ORs rises to 1,634 ORs per SR and ER battalion with 36 battalions with over 2,000 ORs. Detail to follow...MG

MG

  

On 11/10/2013 at 13:39, Graham Stewart said:

among the thousands of 'Volunteers' coming through the Depots, there were hundreds of ex-Regulars, who were time expired from the Reserve, all of whom were renumbered on re-enlisting. Those who had 'previously' held rank, were in fact sent to Kitchener units in order to bring them up to the required standard by forming NCO cadres. I also have no doubt in my mind that those ex-soldiers who re-enlisted at a later date, would have subsequently been re-directed back to a Regular Battalion, once their re-training was completed.

Among those also being re-enlisted into the New Armies were National Reservists, many of whom were ex-servicemen. The N.R., although administered by the Territorial Force, was open to all who wished to join and as a result in May 1915, ex-NCOs were actively encouraged by County Associations, to re-enlist into the New Army Battalions for General Service

The Depots themselves were merely holding units, initially sending men to those K1 battalions as required, but as things became more organised, they were then sent to the Special Reserve Battalions, who in most cases were expanded to accommodate the influx - in which men were then graded regarding their age and training ability.
[K_H_B: Of particular interest is War Office Instruction 102 of December 1914 mentioned previously, subsequently posted by Graham.

A very interesting conclusion on the part of Martin.

  

On 11/10/2013 at 13:25, Guest said:

Looking at the long list of 101 Special Reserve and Extra Reserve battalions I noticed two interesting things;

1. Many of the Special Reserve battalions had come up to strengths slightly higher than 2,000 which is consistent with Peter Simkins comments in "Kitchener's Army" that once K1 had been formed, the SR battalions would be brought up to strength of 2,000 before K2 was formed. This, according to Simkins was decided on 27th Aug 1914. Any further surplus would then be used for the formation of K2. This confirms the view that the SR had effectively been denuded of its best trained men to bring the regular battalions up to strength and provide cadres for Service Battalions (see Bowman and Connelly "The Edwardian Army") combined with the realisation that the SR would need far more men in the immediate future than their establishment of 606 ORs.

The data on the 5th and 12th Sep 1914 is a snapshot of this critical transition. Roughly a fifth of the battalions had complied with the instruction by 5th Sep and the remainder were on their way with the notable exception of the Irish battalions and their structural (politically driven) impediments to recruiting the required numbers. Resolving the individual regimental numbers against the K1 battalion data for the same dates (see post #8) also helps clarify the ebb and flow of recruits over these critical dates. Clearly at one extreme by the 5th Sep some Regiments had formed a K1 battalion, filled the SR battalion to 2,000 from surplus men and were already starting to form the K2 battalion. At the other extreme some Regiments were still short on all three counts.

This intrigues me. If Kitchener men from the recruiting pool were being sent to the SR battalions, these men were more likely to get to the front line earlier. One might reasonably assume there was some kind of selection process to choose K men who made up the SR battalions to 2,000. 

[snip]

This is slowly coming together.

Any mistakes are mine. Excuse typos and damn predictive spelling.

MG

 

[Keith_history_buff]

Prompted by this, I took a look at those soldiers of the South Wales Borderers on the 1914 Roll. Army Order 350 of 1917 is explicit that the names of the Other Ranks are recorded 'in alphabetical order', so separating out the names by terms of service is a manual exercise, based on interpretations.

Of those enlisting after war had been declared:

• I had identified 298 men on the roll who were Special Reservists, many had prior military experience. 
• There were 5 men enlisting for 7/5 years
• There were 56 "Kitchener men", who enlisted under Regular terms for the duration of the war. Some of these men had prior military experience. 

Here are the five regulars, who, after a very short period of training, were sent to France. Job Knowles appears on the 1921 Census with the 2nd Battalion in India.

Regimental Number	Rank	First Name	Last Name	Service record survives	Silver War Badge	Enlist date	Disembarked	Date Of Birth
11239	Private	Thomas	Mortimore	Y	N	10-Aug-1914	13-Nov-1914	Aug-1895
11242	Private	Job	Knowles	N	N	-	13-Nov-1914	16-Jun-1887
11243	Private	Herbert Edward	Jenkins	N	Y	10-Aug-1914	13-Nov-1914	Mar-1892
11244	Private	John	Murphy	Y	N	-	08-Oct-1914	1891
11246	Private	Richard	Perry	N	Y	11-Aug-1914	13-Nov-1914	Nov-1893

Below are 56 Kitchener men who were drawn off to fill the ranks of the 1st Battalion in 1914.

Regimental Number	Rank	First Name	Last Name	Service record survives	Silver War Badge	Enlist date	Disembarked	Date Of Birth	Prior Military Service
12249	Private	William	Jones	Y	N	09-Aug-1914	02-Nov-1914	12-Dec-1882	Y
12256	Private	James	Simmons	N	N	-	09-Nov-1914	1876	-
12278	Private	Herbert	Godfrey	N	N	-	13-Sep-1914	Jul-1879	Y
12306	Private	James	Lynch	N	Y	11-Aug-1914	02-Nov-1914	not known	-
12320	Private	John	Barry	Y	Y	13-Aug-1914	11-Nov-1914	Aug-1883	Y
12325	Private	Charles	Burke	Y	Y	12-Aug-1914	12-Nov-1914	Apr-1879	Y
12328	Private	Edward	McHenry	Y	Y	12-Aug-1914	02-Nov-1914	May-1882	Y
12339	Private	Henry	Coffey	Y	N	13-Aug-1914	13-Nov-1914	Aug-1883	Y
12340	Private	Joseph	Jones	Y	Y	13-Aug-1914	02-Nov-1914	Aug-1872	Y
12342	Private	Arthur	Green	N	N	-	20-Sep-1914	Jul-1881	Y
12351	Private	William	Birt	N	N	-	20-Sep-1914	May-1883	Y
12375	Private	John	Gibbons	N	N	-	13-Sep-1914	May-1877	Y
12377	Private	George Walter	Ebdon	N	N	-	13-Sep-1914	Oct-1877	Y
12392	Private	Charles	Kift	N	N	-	09-Nov-1914	Dec-1875	Y
12402	Private	James	McCarthy	Y	Y	17-Aug-1914	08-Oct-1914	11-Oct-1878	Y
12404	Private	John	Polgreen	Y	Y	18-Aug-1914	13-Nov-1914	24-Aug-1877	Y
13379	Private	William	Miles	N	N	-	13-Nov-1914	Apr-1889	Y
13393	Corporal	Fred	McDonald	Y	Y	29-Aug-1914	13-Nov-1914	30-Aug-1880	Y
13446	Lance Corporal	John	Sullivan	N	N	-	13-Nov-1914	Jun-1881	Y
13465	Private	Thomas John	Lewis	Y	Y	29-Aug-1914	02-Nov-1914	May-1887	Y
13472	Private	Edward	Davies	Y	Y	12-Aug-1914	13-Nov-1914	Jul-1873	Y
13508	Private	William George	Hiskett	N	N	-	02-Nov-1914	1881	-
13513	Private	William	Neail	N	N	-	09-Nov-1914	Oct-1863	Y
13524	Private	Edward	Evans	Y	Y	29-Aug-1914	02-Nov-1914	Dec-1881	Y
13555	Private	William George	Bishop	N	N	-	13-Nov-1914	Jul-1888	Y
13612	Private	Patrick	Murphy	N	N	-	13-Nov-1914	1881	-
13626	Lance Corporal	Thomas	Simmons	N	N	-	13-Nov-1914	1878	-
13658	Sergeant	Daniel	Bromley	N	N	-	12-Nov-1914	1880	-
13669	Private	Charles	Bailey	N	N	-	02-Nov-1914	1890	-
13692	Private	Enoch	Jenkins	Y	N	31-Aug-1914	09-Nov-1914	31-Aug-1892	Y
13696	Private	John Ellis	Jones	N	N	-	13-Nov-1914	Oct-1882	Y
13703	Private	George Herbert	Williams	N	N	-	13-Nov-1914	1893	-
13780	Private	Lewis	Davies	Y	Y	31-Aug-1914	12-Nov-1914	Jan-1878	Y
13797	Private	John	Finn	Y	Y	31-Aug-1914	13-Nov-1914	Jun-1880	Y
14199	Private	Arthur	Caldicott	N	Y	11-Sep-1914	02-Nov-1914	Oct-1879	Y
14952	Private	David Mason	MacAulay	N	N	-	13-Nov-1914	1885	-
14976	Private	William	Blaydon	Y	Y	31-Aug-1914	12-Nov-1914	Dec-1880	Y
15039	Private	Maurice	Cadman	Y	N	02-Sep-1914	13-Nov-1914	Feb-1892	Y
15058	Private	Hubert	Roberts	N	N	-	13-Nov-1914	Jul-1877	-
15123	Private	Charles	Hannan	N	N	-	13-Nov-1914	1875	-
15135	Private	Sidney John	Broadstock	Y	N	31-Aug-1914	13-Nov-1914	31-Oct-1887	Y
15149	Private	Fred	Jenkins	N	N	-	09-Nov-1914	May-1875	Y
15161	Private	William Henry	Lloyd	N	Y	03-Sep-1914	09-Nov-1914	20-Nov-1884	-
15270	Private	John	Jones	N	N	-	13-Nov-1914	1883	-
15334	Private	Patrick	Cleary	N	N	-	13-Nov-1914	not known	-
15381	Private	William	Bennellick	N	N	-	13-Nov-1914	Jan-1872	Y
15384	Private	William	Baines	Y	Y	02-Sep-1914	13-Nov-1914	Jan-1880	Y
15404	Private	Alfred	Warner	N	N	-	13-Nov-1914	Mar-1890	-
15434	Private	John	Morgan	N	N	-	13-Nov-1914	1885	Y
15471	Private	Robert William	Daker	N	N	-	13-Nov-1914	not known	-
15642	Private	Michael	Ryan	N	N	-	13-Nov-1914	not known	-
15690	Private	Ernest	Gronow	Y	Y	05-Sep-1914	13-Nov-1914	Mar-1887	Y
15709	Private	Thomas	Rutter	N	Y	04-Sep-1914	13-Nov-1914	Jun-1892	Y
15715	Private	John	Barry	N	N	-	08-Nov-1914	1872	Y
17870	Private	Richard Lewis	Jones	N	Y	21-Sep-1914	13-Nov-1914	May-1878	-
18977	Private	Henry	Williams	N	Y	08-Sep-1914	11-Nov-1914	not known	-