Kitchener Bn men drawn off to fill Regular Bns in 1914

[Jim Hastings]

Thank you Clive,

We have a depot RSM in a local grave yard GS/732 WO1 C Wallis, never paid much attention to his number until today, he re-enlisted in August 1914 as a recruiter and apparently signed on over 300 local men, dying aged 53 in 1917

Thank you Grumpy,

That is brilliant information. I doubt I'll find out much more about G/1712 L/Cpl Henry Tippett, but I am sure, regarding what has been posted by Martin and your good-self above, that he must have been a re-enlistment. I wonder how many others I can find

I PM'd Michael at lunchtime and he is going to look up the reference for me, but he believes it was from the Pearse and Sloman history of the East Surreys, both who never served with 9th Bn. I will let you know as soon as he lets me know.

Thank you to all, this has been a very interesting and informative post, I have learnt so much and feel I have a bit more of an understanding of those 1914 days

Jim

[Guest]

Some responses to the above flood of info. and comment. I expect the forum will b*gger up the tabulation as usual.

I don't think Martin meant to say " Typically SR battalions had more than double a Regular Service Battalions' war establishment, so initially there was a decent pool of trained Reservists". but if so, it was not the case, in that an SR battalion at full strength was only 606 SR all ranks and 98 regulars all ranks, whereas the WE for regulars was just over 1000 all ranks. The expansion of the SR establishment took place AFTER declaration of war and clearly the new men were not trained. A typical announcement was ACI 288 of 30 Aug 1914 authorising SR unit expansion to 2000 all ranks.

Grumpy - my wording was not clear and as you rightly point out, it gives the wrong impression of what I was trying to say.... which should have been; " Typically SR battalions [once they had taken in the surplus men] had more than double [the equivalent] of a Regular Service Battalions' [nominal] war establishment [of roughly 1,000 ORs] so initially there was a decent pool of trained Reservists" which seemed rather long winded.... the tacit inference was that the SR battalions expanded to over 2,000 men in many cases after they started taking in men, which roughly speaking is double the War Establishment of a regular battalion for overseas. I was really just trying to put some context to the numbers i.e. an SR battalion in early Sep 1914 had in many cases enough men to fill two regular battalions (once they were trained) and this was after the K1 had been filled and most of K2.

On 5th Sep 1914 the 101 Special Reserve and Extra Reserve battalions each had (on average) 1,403 ORs including 26 23 battalions with over 2,000 ORs. These figures included "Other Ranks, trained men" and "Recruits under training" The aggregate split was 59.7% trained men and 40.3% Recruits under training implying (on average) the SR and ER battalions had 854 trained men and 549 recruits under training on 5th Sep 1914.

The 5th (SR) Bn Middlesex Regt had the highest number with 2,151 ORs on this date. I suspect you will be interested to know that the 3rd Royal Welsh Fusiliers at Wrexham had the second highest with 2,147 ORs. The 3rd SR battalion of the Royal Sussex at Dover had 1,196 ORs on the same date. I will post the data for all the battalions in an hour once I have cleaned up the spreadsheet. Source is WO 162.

Edit. I also have the complete data for 12th Sep where the average number of ORs rises to 1,634 ORs per SR and ER battalion with 36 battalions with over 2,000 ORs. Detail to follow...MG

MG

[MBrockway]

I echo Jim above: this is brilliant information. Much appreciated.

[Guest]

Here's some critical information . Source National Archives WO 162. Some additional number crunching by yours truly. I have the same data for 12th Sep. Will post in due course. Any typos are my mistakes.

Please note the data totals are formulated and have been double-checked against the original docs, Ditto the totals. I am confident the transcription has no errors in the numbers.

MG

[Jim Hastings]

Martin this is absolutely phenomenal, thank you for sharing all your hard efforts with us, this is evidence for what a pool the Reserve Bns were, and by Jan 1915 (from what I have assessed from 2nd Sussex ... makes me wonder what the dates were for other Bns of the hard pressed BEF, when other regiments got their first drafts of 'Kitchener' men, I may try the method I tried with 2nd Sx for another Reg Bn ... for another rainy day ...) how that untrained percentage must have dwindled.

I suppose, thinking of the mechanics of the training of the untrained for a moment, those Kitchener 'surplus' consolidated with the SRs, in a higher percentage than them, probably had the best training possible: all of those ex-Regulars and SR men, whereas the Service Bns relied on cadres.

Thank you to all, today I feel I have made a great leap forward in my understanding of the Great War, and shows the forum at its best

Outstanding!!

Jim

NB when I say 'how that untrained percentage must have dwindled' I mean how the untrained soon became the trained ...

[Guest]

Data for Reserve Battalions for 12th September 1914. I realise this is a bit of a data dump but I can give you aggregate data for the changes in the period...

Officers:................... Increase of 65 (+2%)

OR Trained:..............Decrease of 5,013 (- 6%)

OR in Training..........Increase of 28,373 (+51%)

As usual, any errors are mine. MG

P.S. I also have the data for 29th Aug 1914.MG

[Jim Hastings]

Thank you Martin , I'm very grateful (we're very grateful if I can speak on behalf of the forum)

Could I ask you for the figures for 29th Aug, even if only for 3rd Royal Sussex please?

Many thanks

Jim

[Muerrisch]

To keep one foot on the ground, and look at the experiences of one regiment [THE regiment!] the first draft of post-4 August 1914 RWF recruits were sent as reinforcements to the front in May 1915 ......... certainly not precipitately.

[Jim Hastings]

Morning Grumpy,

As born out by Martin's figures as on 12th Sep 3rd RWFs had 1504 'trained men' and the 3rd Sussex only 486, the Sussex must have run out of 'trained men' before the RWF. I wonder when the Gordon Highlanders got their first batch of 'Kitchener' men, for example?

All very interesting, learning so much

Thanks again

Jim

[Guest]

Gents...there is one missing piece of the jigsaw...the Depots. Fortunately the WO 162 files recorded numbers at the depots on 5th Sep 1914 breaking down the Officers and Men, and splitting out men destined for Reserve battalions and those destined for Kitchener battalions. An earlier post showed the stats for the Special Reserve and Extra Reserve battalions on the same date, so it is possible to get the full picture on this date (very close to peak daily recruiting). Putting the two spreadsheets together makes for rather a large image, so I have cut it down.

I have highlighted three examples...

1. The West Yorks (in grey) which had a SR Bn and an ER Bn

2. RWF (in green)

3. R Sussex Regt in Brown/orange

West Yorks..on 5th Sep 1914

Depot had;

18 trained men and 219 recruits destined for the SR

159 trained men and 1,438 recruits destined for Service Battalions

Special Reserve Bn had:

1,130 trained men and 412 recruits under training

Extra Reserve Bn had:

611 trained men and 420 recruits under training

Total of Depot, SR and ER:

1,918 trained men and 2,489 recruits under training. Total: 4,407

It is worth remembering that the 9th West Yorks (K1 Battalion in 32nd Bde 11th Northern Div) also had on this date 1,845 men (probably mostly recruits). The K2 battalion had not yet been formed and probably would have taken surplus men from the 9th Bn with the designated men from the depot to meet establishment. Any mistakes are mine. MG

Edit. From the tables below it seems clear there are huge inconsistencies in how each regiment organised its depot and SR and ER battalions and where it placed the recruits. This, I think relfects a very chaotic period - remember the authorities put the brakes on within 6 days of this data. I have the data for all Regiments if required. Data has been checked twice against the original docs in WO 162. MG

[Guest]

Could I ask you for the figures for 29th Aug, even if only for 3rd Royal Sussex please?

See attached. It looks like a few hundred trained men went off to the Kitchener battalions between 5th and 12th Sep 1914....most likely the 8th and 9th Battalions as K1 (7th Bn) already had 1,161 ORs on 5th Sep 1914. MG

[Jim Hastings]

I will double check the 2 Sussex WD but it makes sense that the trained men went to the K2/3 Bns between these dates Martin as 2 Sussex did not suffer mass casualties until the 14th September

Thank you yet again for passing on this info, helps enormously in clearing the chaos associated with the outbreak of war

[Jim Hastings]

2nd Sussex WD mentions 17 Killed, 83 wounded and a 'number missing' from action on the 10th, but on the 14th they suffered 59 deaths (inc. the CO and Adjt), 79 wounded and 114 Missing (although some of the Missing reported on the 14th would no doubt have contributed to the 59 deaths). There is no mention of drafts joining them in the entries for the following month, although will read further. So evidence would suggest, as you say Martin, that those trained men went to the K Bns between those dates

Great, many thanks

Jim

[MBrockway]

Gents...there is one missing piece of the jigsaw...the Depots. Fortunately the WO 162 files recorded numbers at the depots on 5th Sep 1914 breaking down the Officers and Men, and splitting out men destined for Reserve battalions and those destined for Kitchener battalions.

..

Edit. From the tables below it seems clear there are huge inconsistencies in how each regiment organised its depot and SR and ER battalions and where it placed the recruits. This, I think reflects a very chaotic period - remember the authorities put the brakes on within 6 days of this data. I have the data for all Regiments if required. Data has been checked twice against the original docs in WO 162. MG

Martin,

Do you have any data for the KRRs and Rifle Brigade and the Rifles Depot at Winchester? Andy and I would be very interested in that. Like yourself, we're trying to make order out of the chaos!

This high quality of research is exactly what the Forum should be about! Thank you for sharing what is clearly the product of a serious quantity of diligent legwork.

Cheers,

Mark

[Guest]

Martin,

Do you have any data for the KRRs and Rifle Brigade and the Rifles Depot at Winchester? Andy and I would be very interested in that. Like yourself, we're trying to make order out of the chaos!

Mark

Second attempt.. Please note that the Reserve Bn data is for three separate dates - 29th Aug, 5th Sep and 12th Sep 1914 but the Depot data is only for 5th Sep 1914

KRRC and Rifle bde...

[Guest]

Another way of looking at 5th Sep for KRCC and Rifle Bde with the data side-by-side... MG

[MBrockway]

Fantastic Martin - much appreciated!

[westkent78]

Martin,

Could I prevail upon your kindness to post the RWK numbers including the depot.

Presumably reservists from the Empire making their way back to their regiment would not be included in these figures?

Best regards,

Matthew

[Guest]

Yes, but as you might have guessed from my last blank post I am no longer at my PC and now on my iPhone. I am away until Monday so please either PM me as a reminder or nudge me on Monday.

I will post the Depot data in its entirety so others can rebuild their own Battalions' depot and Reserve Bn numbers. Hopefully by filling in part of the jigsaw it will shed further light on the period immediately post mobilisation.

It has already been said by others that this is a poorly understood and under-researched area. I have lots more data which I can post separately. I may well start a new thread just for the data as it builds. Bear with me...

One thing is certain, in this area averages have little meaning. The patterns within the data are fragmented and not uniform across regiments.

I will likely revert on Monday as the data is not with me. I should have saved it to the cloud. MG

[EastSurrey]

Regarding 9th East Surrey,Pearse and Sloman's history of the regiment Vol.II pp 25-6 was my source.As I've just advised Jim,the transfer of over 300 men to 1st Battalion was about three weeks after 30 September 1914.These men are described as 'old soldiers', so would have been trained and experienced already.

I'm afraid I can't help much with other regiments, except to quote the much later example of my greatuncle, Reg Howship, who volunteered at 18 in Dec. 1915 for Q.Victoria's Rifles. He was mobilised in May 1916 and on arrival in France in October was transferred first to 1/12th Londons then very soon afterwards to 13th Royal Irish Rifles, as I think were a number of other men from the London Regt.

Michael

[mandy hall]

Hi Jim

I am in the West Sussex Records Office at the moment, have been looking at Royal Sussex things during the afternoon to see, if I can help.

I have next to me the Digest of service of the 3rd Battalion, The Royal Sussex Regiment (RSR MSS 3/34). It records the additions to strength, training of men, drafting of reinforcements to overseas battalions. Unfortunately it gives lots of details of the comings and goings of Officers and other ranks, but not to what regiment they joined.

It records

On 31st August 1914 a draft of I officer and 93 other ranks left the Battalion Lieut E A Lousada in Command

( Lousada is killed on 2nd November 1914 with the 2nd Battalion.)

A draft of 2 officers and 163 others left the Battalion on 12th September Lieuts L H K Finch, and M T Turner.

A draft of 3 officers and 93 others left the Batt on 20th Sept, Lieut E W T Rowe and 2nd Lieut F Y Goring accompanied. Captain R H Waithman followed afterwards.

A draft of 1 officer and 25 others left the Battalion on the Expeditionary Force Lieut B P Duke in command.

A New "Service Battalion" (The 10th Service Battalion) was formed from the General Service Recruits and Others of the 3rd Battalion on the 31st October. Number struck off the 3rd Battn for this purpose 487.

A draft of 4 officers and 93 others left the Battn on the 10th Novr, to join the Expeditionary Force, Captain R F Finke to Rl Sussex, Captain E M Crawley-Boevey, 2nd Lieut T S Bewman to Royal Fusiliers, 2nd Lieut R S Monesole, Yorkshires.

A draft of 6 officers and 176 others left the Batt for the Expeditionary Force on the 23rd Novr, 1914.

Lieut H E H Blakeney, 2nd Lieuts E J Hobbs, P E M Le Gallais, F A B Nicell, F J A Dibdin, H W Hyde

A draft of 3 Officers and 231 others left the Battalion for the Expeditionary Force on the 29th Novr 1914, 2nd Lieuts W H C Hardy, R T Shaw, and R R Lewin.

Up to the end of December 1914, the Battalion sent out as Re-inforcements 41 Officers and 967 Other Ranks

In between the bits I have copied out are the comings and goings of individual officers.

I have asked if they will photocopy the first few pages for you, but it is a bit to fragile for the photocopier so was refused.

Mandy

[Muerrisch]

There is a grey area surrounding Depots, SR battalions, and Extra R battalions. It might help if I quoted from KR 1912 amd. to Aug 1914, and Special reserve Regs 1911[sRR].

Before that, I think it fair to say that an infantry regimental depot was the spiritual permanent home in the county or recruiting area, held the ark of the covenant ie. the colours when the battalions were on active service, the silverware, and the medals of men on service. Among other tasks it issued regimental numbers to recruits and ran the recruiting and medical and attestation process.

The OC was always a regular major.

Surprisingly a depot did not have an Establishment, no officers or men were posted to it, and it was just an administrative convenience and a load of buildings and artefacts.

KR 109. OC an infantry depot will be responsible for efficiency and discipline and the training of recruits [does not specify what sort of recruits], also for mobilisation arrangements including personal equipment, kit and clothing of reservists

KR 110. responsible for recruiting arrangements.

SRR 44. The OC depot will command the whole of the regular establishment and special reserve recruits except during annual training. The senior officer of the regular establishment of the reserve battalion whose HQ are located in peace at the depot barracks will command the depot

SRR 17. during the non-training period two companies of SR battalions will act as admin coys for depot duties, all officers below rank of major, and men, both regulars and special reservists, doing duty at the depot will be borne on the strength of these coys for admin purposes.

18. SR battalions will train annually as battalions under their own officers but their recruits will be trained at the HQ of the unit which trains recruits for the regular battalions [ie the depot]. [Rifles treated differently]

60. CO SR unit will be either SR officer or a retired regular [lt-col].

62.adjt usually a regular

63. QM selected fro regular WO or NCO

KR 1266. officers for SR and depot duty to be selected by OC the regular unit [at Home presumably]

1267. tour of duty three years

1268. not to be one of the three senior majors, the three senior captains or the six senior subalterns.

1269. only two of the four most senior may be married.

SRR 365. In peace the officers and soldiers of the regular establishment of the reserve battalion or battalions quartered in the various depot barracks constitute the depot of each regiment of the infantry of the line.

It is to be clearly understood that these officers and soldiers , although forming the regimental depot, are posted or attached to the reserve battalion and not to the depot

Using Ron Clifton’s figures, on the last day of peace the reserve battalion at the depot would [should] comprise

98 regulars: CO a major, 3 captains, 2 lts, one adjt, one QM, one sjt-major, 22 sergeants, 10 drummers/ buglers, 16 corporals and 41 privates, with

SR officers/ men: Lt-Col, 1 major, 5 captains, 11 Lts, 8 2^nd Lts, 25 sergeants, 16 corporals, and 539 privates.

Perhaps reference in the foregoing postings to staff OF the depots should be construed as AT the depots? As for "Permanent Establishment" of the depot, perhaps the army confused itself?

[Jim Hastings]

Mandy,

What can I say?! Thank you so, so much, I really, really appreciate you looking into this for me, and what a turn up! Those officers names alone- I've come across them in the WD and elsewhere ... Captain Richard Finke from Aubers Ridge for example ... and there they are going to F&F

So, after 31st October, drafts from 3rd Sussex should be going just to 2nd Sussex (and 1st in India, to a much much lesser extent)

I've found some men from the 29th Nov draft, did not realise it was so big, but then by that period of 1914 how many had 2nd Sussex lost: 244 dead, but how many wounded to replace?!

I really did not expect this post to go as it has, but I'm so glad it has, as I have learned so much, and then so much more with every additional posting.

There is so much more digging I need to do, and it is amazing what you can learn just focusing on one battalion. Think I need to get myself back down WSRO!!

Mandy you are an absolute star, thank you so much

Jim

[Jim Hastings]

Hi Grumpy,

Your last post triggered something in my memory, so went and checked online and in Rutter's History of the 7th Sussex he mentions that "It was then decided [August 1914] that all the COs and RSMs of the regimental depots should become the COs and QMs of the first Service Bns of their regiments", (7th gaining Major Osborn as Lt Col and WO1 Clarke as QM)

Is it best to PM you for details of how to get your joint book on Army Numbers?

Big thank you for all your insight on this subject

Jim

[Guest]

Perhaps reference in the foregoing postings to staff OF the depots should be construed as AT the depots? As for "Permanent Establishment" of the depot, perhaps the army confused itself?

Grumpy - I am pretty sure I transcribed it verbatim. The originals definitely state "permanent". I will post copies of the originals on my return. It is of course possible that a clerk typing up the tables chose his own words. They are not printed docs, just typed documents for the recruiting committee meetings if the other documents are any indication. The other documents in the same file would strongly indicate they were used in meetings at the very highest level of the people with responsibility for recruiting. For example there are notes discussing the possibility of pushing the 10th (Irish) Div back into K2 due to the slow pace of recruiting in Ireland - decisions that would only have taken place at the highest level, so if there was confusion, it went right to the top.

I am away in Rhosneigr all weekend some distance from my files so I can't check until Monday. I think there is a separate set of documents listing the troops at the depots which also splits out the staff from the recruits. It will be interesting to see how they described/labelled the Depot staff.

MG