Kitchener Bn men drawn off to fill Regular Bns in 1914

[Jim Hastings]

Dear All,

On reading Michael Lucas's great 'The Journey's End Battalion: The 9th East Surrey in the Great War' , a K3 Bn in 24 Div., mention is made of how the Bn was over 1,000 strong by 19th September 1914 but then "300 were soon drawn off to reinforce 1/East Surrey, which had suffered heavy losses serving with the BEF"

I believe the same may have happened from 9th Sussex to 2nd Sussex but am still looking for the evidence. Has any member come across this transfer before in their research on particular Bns?

My line of thinking is, based on looking at 7th Sussex and 11th Sussex (1st Southdown) that once these Bns had fulfilled their compliment the overspill went to form the 8th Sussex and 12th Sussex and onwards. I understand 9th and 13th Sussex had difficulties fulfilling their compliments initially.

As Chris states on the LLT: "[The 24th] Division was established in September 1914 as part of Army Order 388 authorising Kitchener's Third New Army, K3. The units of the Division began to assemble in the area of Shoreham. Early days were somewhat chaotic, the new volunteers having very few trained officers and NCOs to command them, no organised billets or equipment. It was March 1915 before makeshift drab uniforms arrived and not until July before rifles were issued. "

My thoughts are that, with the 24th massing on the Sussex coast, not too far from Newhaven port, were they seen as ripe by the powers-that-be for using as reinforcements for the Regular units devastated in 1914. By late '14 / early '15 the Reservists and Special Reservist supply had been exhausted, so were drafts taken from the forming Kitchener Bns.

I've been on Paul Nixon's army numbers website and the Sussex were very organised number-wise, but there were a lot of G-prefix numbered men appearing in 2nd Sussex in early 1915 ~ were these a draft from the Kitchener Bns? Were they volunteers from the Kitchener Bns? or did they enlist directly into 2nd Sussex on a war duration basis

To add to the mix, I also found out recently that a lot of TF men with 4th Sussex in East Grinstead were 'sent' to 2nd Sussex, in time for Aubers Ridge in May 1915

So, back to my original request, has anyone else who has been researching the early war history of a Kitchener, or for that matter Regular, Bn come across evidence of mass drafts from a K Bn to a Regular one?

(Apologies for ramblings, hope this makes sense to readers as it does to me)

Appreciate any input, advice or direction

Many thanks

Jim

PS Thank you Michael for giving me the thought

[Old Tom]

I am afraid I can add little to your outline of what might be a possibility. However I would comment that such transfers, if they were made directly from K units under formation to deployed units would not be practicable as these men would be un trained and largely un equiped. A transfer via regimental depots would seem more likely as these would have some equipment available and would have some facility for training.

Old Tom

[Guest]

Dear All,

So, back to my original request, has anyone else who has been researching the early war history of a Kitchener, or for that matter Regular, Bn come across evidence of mass drafts from a K Bn to a Regular one?

Appreciate any input, advice or direction. Many thanks. Jim

Jim

I have done some work on K1, in particular the 10th (Irish) Div where there were a number of very large transfers of men (in excess of 200 men in battalions)

The National Archives has some limited data on K1, K2 and K3 showing the rate at which the Divisions were recruting in the first weeks following Kitchener's call. Within a week the battalions of the 8th 9th, 11th, and 13th Divs were full, some with more than double their requirements which allowed the regional Division to starts K2.... two divisions stood out showing very slow recruiting - the 10th (Irish) Div and the 12th (Eastern) Div. The latter was due to the harvest slowing recruiting in this rural recruiting area. The Irish Div's slow recruiting was due to a variety of reasons, mostly political with both the Loyalists and Irish Nationalists Volunteer movement holding out for greater leverage with the Govt.

The result was that some of the Irish battalions were very under-strength and Kitchener considered putting the 10th (Irish) Div back into K2. The problem was solved with transfers of large drafts form other (non K1) battalions as well as transfers from the Jersey and Guernsey Militias to make the numbers. There are also examples from the 16th (Irish) Div losing large drafts of men. If you are interested in examples by battalion, let me know.

Separate to this, the Derbyshire Yeomanry (TF) lost a draft of 119 men to the Durham Light Infantry (which must have happened between Jan 1916 and Apr 1917).

MG

P.S. I have quite a lot of data from the National Archives WO 162 files which cover recruiting at the outbreak and the formation of the New Armies. MG

Edit: as Irish recruiting dried up after the Easter Rising, the shortage in manpower became acute and in order to maintain the Irish national character of some units, battalions were merged and Irish Regiments transferred into these Divisions to fill the gaps. From 1916 onwards Irish battalions were receiving large drafts of no-Irish from (mostly) English battalions. Questions were raised in parliament asking why the Irish units were being sustained with English conscripts while Ireland was not subjected to conscription. MG

[Guest]

Some examples from early on in the recruiting....

7th R Irish Rifles received 6 Officers and 225 ORs from Jersey Militia -became D Coy.

6th R Irish Regt received 1 Coy and 1 MG Section form Guernsey Militia

5th Connaught Rangers had half of "one company of largely insubordinate Yorkshiremen" - almost certainly from the York & Lancaster Regiment*

5th R Innis Fus received a draft of Londoners who thought they were heading to the DCLI (1/3 of a Coy) - note 6% of the 5th Bn's SDGW were formerly with the DCLI and most of these were from what we would call Greater London.

6th Leinsters received 600 men from Bristol (regiment unspecified but almost certainly Somerset LI*)

6th Connaught Rangers lost 200 men to the R Inniskilling Fus (a political move)

16th Irish Div lost 1,200 men in Jun 1915 to the 10th (Irish) Div

* Looking as SDGW of the Irish Battalions it is very easy to spot the evidence of large blocks of men from English battalions who transferred. The Only Yorkshiremen in the 5th Connaughts data are all from the York & Lancaster Regt. Almost every Irish battalion appears to have received blocks of men from English battalions at some stage if the data is anything to go by. ...for example the 12th and 15th Bn's R Irish Rifles both have significant numbers of SDGW who had previously served in the R Warwickshire Regiment, yet none apear to have served in the 13th or 14th Battalions which might suggest specific drafts transferred to specific battalions. MG

[Jim Hastings]

Thank you Martin,

That is very interesting about the delay in recruiting in the 10th and 12th Divs. As an off-shoot from the harvest consideration, many of the sadly few Southdowns' Bns Service Records that do survive indicate men being temporarily released from training to return to farms to complete the harvest before returning to the Bns - Maybe Lowther was astute enough to realise how the harvest would detract from his recruiting drive and opted to get the men first onto his 'Southdowners' strength and then release them.

Also very interesting information about the problems of Irish recruiting after the Rising.

So for the 10th and 16th Divs, where did these drafts go, to Regular Bns of their regiments? Just received your second post, thank you Martin, have you come across men going from say 5th Royal Irish to 2nd? From K to Regs?

Leaving the Southdowns Bns aside for the moment,I know 7th Sussex had a recruiting campaign with posters that reminded potential recruits to tell recruiting Sgts that they specifically wanted 7th Sussex. Paul Reed's battlefields website has 7th Bn men allocated numbers G1-1200. The thing is I have local men with numbers in the G1500-1600 bracket who are with the 2nd Sussex in early 1915. Also 8th Sussex were mainly men in their late 20s and 30s as designated pioneers. That is where I think I am getting the idea that either an 'overspill' of Kitchener men were sent to 2nd Sussex after 7th were full or drafted from the forming 9th. Oh to be a fly on the wall in Lewes recruiting office and/or Chichester depot ...

I know a man could still enlist in the Regular British Army after the outbreak of war, and in the Sussex get a L-prefixed number as a result, but could a 'war-duration' man with a G-prefixed number request being sent to a Regular Bn? The 2nd (like many Regular battalions) was seen as an elite Bn by late 1914 (the German's dubbed it The Iron Regiment), so many war-duration recruits may have been drawn to it by its kudos (excuse the non-period word!!)?

I know later in the war 2nd Sussex received men from Norfolk, Suffolk and also the East Kent Yeomanry, and SD-prefixed men from the Southdown Bns folded in 1918. Just wondered how it filled its ranks so quickly after the Reservists and SR men had been absorbed and run out? Must have been the same situation in every Old Contemptible Bn ...

Value anything you have gleaned from the WO 162 files that give an indicator Martin

Thank you for looking into this for me already and for your time and effort

Jim

[Jim Hastings]

I am afraid I can add little to your outline of what might be a possibility. However I would comment that such transfers, if they were made directly from K units under formation to deployed units would not be practicable as these men would be un trained and largely un equiped. A transfer via regimental depots would seem more likely as these would have some equipment available and would have some facility for training.

Old Tom

That's what I would have thought, Old Tom, but it looks as though it happened to 9th East Surreys; and all of the recruits would have gone through the depot first. Quite a grey area ...

Perplexing

[Muerrisch]

Perhaps it is worth making three points:

1. that "Kitchener" recruits were officially to be regarded in all respects as regular soldiers but with different Terms of Engagement. Thus, when trained and if fit they could be posted to ANY battalion of their regiment and, if the exigencies of the service required it, transferred to any other corps.

2. the only exception to this freedom of the authorities to post or transfer was that those who enlisted in the TF had rights regarding their unit: rights that were soon whittled [or even swindled] away.

3. In the early days recruit training was defined by AO 324 21st Aug 1914 and specified a total of six months training of which the first 10 weeks were individual training. I accept that there are some well-documented cases of individuals who apparently had much less, but there is usually an underlying reason for these exceptions. Mass transfers before the 10 weeks were up early in the war would interest me greatly if they could be substantiated.

[Guest]

Jim - the files really relate to the raising of the Kitchener Battalions and dealing with the massive influx of volunteers.It does not go into later detail past the raising of K3.

Something to consider. On mobilisation the Regular Bns at Home were (on average) 570 men below strength for a number of reasons. The Overseas battalions despite nominally being up to strehgth also needed over 200 men each on average as they handed back men too young for active service and men who were unfit for active service. The Army Reserve and the Special Reserve made up the difference and the SR battalions absorbed the excess men that the depots could not cope with. Typically SR battalions has more than double a Regular Service Battalions' war establishment, so initially there was a decent pool of trained Reservists.

The first wave of reinforcements for the BEF came from the reservists. A half-trained man was not particularly useful so I think it very unlikely that many (any?) Kitchener recruits were drafted into regular battalions before mid 1915 .

When Kitchener battalions were raised, they were essentially raw recruits in the main. The blocks of men switching between battalions in 1914-1915 were (generally speaking) the New Armies trying to balance excess recruits from one area against shortfalls in others. The stats for K1 and K2 show the other Divisions had huge surpluses of men in most of the Divisions

When the first 6 Divs of K1 left for overseas, any shortfalls were made up from K2 (much to K2 units' annoyance). After the disasters at Loos and Gallipoli where K1 fought, it is unlikely that K1 was providing blocks to anyone, rather they would be the units receiving men. Note 10th, 11th and 13th Divs had massive casualties in the first few weeks and most battalions were amalgamated into paired battalions by Sep 1915 as casualties outstripped the logistics of the reinforcement chain.

I believe the Reservists and the SR battalions managed to keep the Regulars supplied in 1914 and early 1915. After Loos I suspect supply became much tighter and of course the recognition of this was the introduction of Conscription in Jan 1916. It is after this date I suspect we will see the first evidence of Kitchener battalions being plundered for reinforcements for the 1st and 2nd Bns of the regular Army.

There is lots of evidence of K battalions later amalgamating and the small numbers of excess men being diverted to other weak Service battalions. I would not be surprised if some went to 1st and 2nd Bns.

My stats, compiled from the WO 162 files for K1 are below.... the increase/decrease columns clearly show the excess/shortfalls and implicitly show which battalions saw mavements in blocks of recruits. ...all within a few days.

Edit. Note the 8th Bn Cheshire Regt had over 4,000 men, 7th Glosters had 3,953 while the 6th Bn R Irish Fusiliers had just 39 men on 5th Sep.

MG

Edit. Typo on the spreadsheet. 1914 not 1915. Will amend and repost tomorrow. MG ( thanks to LST for the nudge)

Edit 2. Amended spreadsheet with correct dates.

[Jim Hastings]

Grumpy and Martin,

Thank you, in the matter of five minutes you have together cleared a lot up in my mind and made things much more understandable. I have to step away from the forum for a few hours now, but will be back to re-read and take in the information you have both supplied, I just wanted to take the opportunity before going to thank you, your expertise and efforts passing it on are greatly appreciated.

I'd rather say thank you now and come back, than not acknowledge your help and come back to it later

No doubt I will have more questions, until then thank you both again, a lot of food for thought for the next few hours that I am away

Best wishes

Jim

[Guest]

Some more evidence of where the excess and shortfalls were...

[Guest]

Last post.... I think you'll find more evidence of block transfers from Kitchener battalions to Regular 1st and 2nd battalions from 1917 onwards. When the withering Service battalions were being amalgamated or disbanded, surplus men often went to the 1st or 2nd Bns, sometimes even to different regiments. Two examples from the History of the Royal Irish Rifles by the very frank Cyril Falls;

In Oct 1917 the 7th (Service) Bn Royal Irish Rifles was broken up and its remaining troops were absorbed by the 2nd Bn Royal Irish Rifles.

Later in May 1918 when the 6th (Service) Bn Royal Irish Rifles was broken up men were transferred to the 1st Bn Leinster Regt. This was typical of the fate of many of the Irish Service Battalions.

MG

[Jim Hastings]

Thank you Martin

Appreciate you posting these for me, the count for 36th Bde was very telling, showing the recruiting for a rural Bn amongst essentially London Bns

I have been doing some digging myself: from CWGC, SDGW and resulting MIC checks I can see that the vast majority of G-prefixed men allocated to 2nd Sussex embarked on 11th Jan 1915, (although there was one, G/1712 Pte (soon to be L/Cpl) Henry Tippett who embarked on 29th November 1914 - as Grumpy suggested above, he must have been exceptional reasons for him being posted there so soon - he was killed in the January, so had been promoted in less than 2 months - be great to know his story). The first casualties for G-prefixed men occurred on 29th and 30th Jan 1915, when the 'Keep' at Guinchy held by the Bn was heavily attacked. Tracing back through the 2nd Sussex WD, for the entry on the 13th Jan :

"A draft of 210 arrived ... These went straight into the trenches when they arrived from Annequin where they had billeted the night before. All Kitchener’s August recruits. They seemed to be a good lot"

Interestingly all of the Army Numbers of the casualties were higher than G/1200, as per Paul Reed's observations about the number system for 7th Sussex

So, it can maybe be inferred that when the nucleus of 7th Sussex moved from Chichester to Sobraon Brks in Colchester on 21st August 1914, those recruits left in Chichester were 'earmarked' for 2nd Sussex or for K2 (8th Sussex) (and 7th history does say that "the ultimate surplus of recruits were ultimately drafted to form the 8th Bn")

The depot must have been mayhem, but it looks as though they managed to get 200 odd men trained and out to the front in about 4 months

So men might have been taken from 9th East Surrey to bring 1st Bn up to strength, but this was not the case for the Royal Sussex

True re: late war block transfers Martin, find a lot of SD numbers from when the 11th Sussex were reduced to a cadre and 12th Sx. were disbanded in Feb 1918 in 2nd Sussex's ranks

Thanks again to all, especially to Martin for all your efforts

All the best

Jim

[Jim Hastings]

As an after note, just found out that the officer who led that draft, 2/Lt Robert Wilfred Raleigh Gramshaw of Polegate, died of wounds on 27th Jan 1915, after only two weeks with his Regiment

JH

[Guest]

As an after note, just found out that the officer who led that draft, 2/Lt Robert Wilfred Raleigh Gramshaw of Polegate, died of wounds on 27th Jan 1915, after only two weeks with his Regiment

JH

I don't think Officers provide the best examples. He was 24 when he died and given the qualification requirements in 1914-15 for new Officers was prior attendance at a public School and either Certificate A or B is almost certain he had Certificate A or B from his OTC and was therefore considered more 'trained' than the average OR recruit, which might have accelerated his passage. I suspect (but cannot yet prove) that the (few?) men from the Kitchener battalions who were accelerated through to serving with the regulars before the statutory training were either ex-Regulars or time expired Reservists who had rejoined.

I think (and others may either confirm or deny) that an OR would receive a new number on joining a battalion, even if he was an ex regular ...which might (if I am right) suggest that trying to prove that Kitchener Battalion men who served with Regulars after just a few weeks (based on their Army Numbers) might be a challenging starting point. My point is that Kitchener battalions would certainly contain men who had served previously, and some of these may have been accelerated through the system and their Army numbers would not necessarily reflect their previous service. This is only my conjecture and I may well be off mark.

To me it simply does not make sense that an army flush with trained reservists would send out untrained men to regular battalions. I have no doubt it happened, but there will be some underlying explanation why some Kitchener men were sent out early. I suspect their numbers would be insignificant in the great scheme of things.

Any mistakes are mine.

MG

[hazelclark]

My Grandfather was with the 1st Seaforth (Meerut Div) from about 1907 and went to France with them from India in 1914. Some time after the summer of 1915 he becomes 8th Seaforth which was one of Kitchener's new armies. His original Regiment went to Mesopotamia in Dec. 1915. Either he was wounded and his regiment had left before he returned, or he was sent as a regular NCO to help "stiffen" the new Bn. He, however, had the same service number throughout.

Hazel

[clive_hughes]

Martin,

I find your WO162 stats fascinating, but I'm confused...are the tables for K1 recruiting really for Aug-Sept 1915 as in the heading? These units such as 13th Divn. were overseas by then and surely can't have been eg. 8th Cheshires 10 Officers 4,042 Other Ranks strong??

I'm missing something obvious here...

Clive

[Guest]

Martin,

I find your WO162 stats fascinating, but I'm confused...are the tables for K1 recruiting really for Aug-Sept 1915 as in the heading? These units such as 13th Divn. were overseas by then and surely can't have been eg. 8th Cheshires 10 Officers 4,042 Other Ranks strong??

I'm missing something obvious here...

Clive

1914. My typo on the original spreadsheet. Will amend and repost.

[MBrockway]

Absolute gold mine of interesting data. Excellent research Pals.

I came across this in Gordon Corrigan's Mud, Blood and Poppycock ...

"It became obvious that the regular army recruiting organisation could not cope with the unprecedented rush of young men to the colours. A temporary brake had to be applied to recruiting, and so the physical standards were raised in September 1914; they were lowered again in November when some semblance of order had been restored."
Gordon Corrigan Mud, Blood and Poppycock, Chapter 2, p.66

Somewhat annoyingly Corrigan cites no reference for this.

As my grandfather enlisted on 04 November 1914, it would be most useful to know further detail on Corrigan's assertion. Can anyone flesh this out more?

Cheers,

Mark

[Guest]

Here are the stats for the response to Kitchener's call compiled from the original documents [source National Archives WO 162]

Chart 1: Cumulative Recruiting Stats 4th Aug - 27th Dec 1914

Chart 2: Daily Recruiting Stats 4th Aug - 27th Dec 1914

As you can see the system was flush with untrained men, however the stats in post #8 show that the response was far from even. Ultimately the heavy industrial areas of Scotland, South Wales, the North East, North West, Midlands and London were the main sources. Some benchmarks dates when the hundreds of thousands were crossed and the time difference between each hundred thousand.:

100,000 - 22nd Aug 1914.....18 days after war is declared.

200,000 - 1st Sep 1914.... 10 days after the first hundred thousand

300,000 - 4th Sep 1914.......3 days after the second hundred thousand

400,000 - 8th Sep 1914.......4 days after the third etc

500,000 - 15th Sep 1914.......7 days after the fourth etc..

600,000 - 15th Oct 1914.....30 days after the fifth etc.

700,000 - 16th Nov 1914.....32 days after the sixth etc..

800,000 - 22nd Dec 1914....37 days after the seventh hundred thousand.

The peak day was 3rd Sep 1914 when 33,204 men joined in one day. It is also quite clear when the 'brake' was applied in late Sep as standards were raised and then lowered again in November as highlighted in Mark's post above.

MG

[Jim Hastings]

Morning Martin,

Thank you for the extra information. Your thoughts re: ex Regs or time served Reservists getting new numbers on re-joining makes sense - L/Cpl Tippett must have been one outstanding soldier to join up in August, get to France by November and have been promoted before his death in the Jan 1915. I do know the Southdowns Bns issued new numbers to ex-soldiers, the most renown being CSM Nelson Carter, the VC winner of 12th Bn, he had been RGA many years before, and he was given the number SD/4. That renumbering may have been the idea of Lowther, the Southdowns raiser, who wanted to claim his men as Southdowners and not let them be filtered into other Bns of the Sussex (his plan was to form a Bde of them and guess who he planned to be Bde Commander!!??)

I know a little of the 7th Sussex and know they were formed from a cadre of officers and NCOs sent by 2nd Sussex from Woking when Kitchener made his call. I know the NCOs sought to be returned to 2nd Sussex when they deployed, and their wishes honoured, and that the 7th's CO, a long serving Regular, advertised for old Regular NCOs whom he and the other officers had served with to join the 7th, with retention of the rank they held pre-war - maybe a check of the 7th numbering system may highlight whether they retained their old L-prefixed numbers or received new G-prefixed numbers ... one for a rainy day

So Hazel, your grandfather had an L-prefixed number all his career?

That is an interesting point Mark, will dig my Corrigan out and see if his bibliography gives any hint as to where he got it from (longshot I know)

I apologise for my points being centred around the Royal Sussex, but they have been the focus of my research, it is so nice to have Martin's broader scope

Jim

[Guest]

I apologise for my points being centred around the Royal Sussex, but they have been the focus of my research, it is so nice to have Martin's broader scope

Jim

Having recently moved to the Witterings and now in possession of the 7th (Service) Bn Royal Sussex Regiment history, this is doubly interesting.

It is worth recognising a huge debt to GWF colleagues Grumpy and Graham Stewart who's detailed knowledge of the structure and numbering of the Army and the ACIs both during the war and prior to the war spurred my interest. We have some related threads trundling along regarding the Special Reserves, recruiting etc. If you are researching the 7th Bn men and their numbers, I would strongly recommend their privately published book on Army Numbering. Essential reading in my view.

There is evidence that despite the mass of recruits, the Army would still have been short of trained men once the Reservists had been absorbed by the Regulars. After 27th August it is worth noting that the Kitchener men surplus to the requirements of K1, K2 and K3 were consolidated with the Special Reserve battalions, which clearly provides the structure and mechanism by which a Kitchener volunteer with prior experience could have been absorbed into a reinforcement draft early in the War.

MG

[Guest]

Absolute gold mine of interesting data. Excellent research Pals.

I came across this in Gordon Corrigan's Mud, Blood and Poppycock ...

"It became obvious that the regular army recruiting organisation could not cope with the unprecedented rush of young men to the colours. A temporary brake had to be applied to recruiting, and so the physical standards were raised in September 1914; they were lowered again in November when some semblance of order had been restored."

Gordon Corrigan Mud, Blood and Poppycock, Chapter 2, p.66

Somewhat annoyingly Corrigan cites no reference for this.

As my grandfather enlisted on 04 November 1914, it would be most useful to know further detail on Corrigan's assertion. Can anyone flesh this out more?

Cheers,

Mark

The War Office issued a statement through the press on 11th Sep 1914 that the minimum height requirements for recruits had been raised to 5' 6" (previously 5' 3" ) and the minimum chest measurement increased to 35 1/2 " (previously 34")..... in late October when recruiting had started to wane, the minimum height was reduced to 5' 4" and shortly afterwards on 5th Nov 1914 the minimum height was again reduced by an inch to the original limits and at the same time the upper age limit was raised to 38 (originally 30).

MG

Sources are spread over WO 162, WO 163 and NATS all held at the National Archives. Contemporary press articles also provide evidence for the changes as the War Office was using the press to convey any changes to recruiting policy - see the Times archives and British Newspaper Archives.

[Jim Hastings]

By coincidence I have just started reading the SR post Martin, but will seek the others on recruiting

The consolidation of surplus K men into the SR Bns is a very interesting point, quite possibly where the draft of 210 men on 11th Jan came from ...

I wonder, with the depot in Chichester whether logistically more West Sussex men reported quicker than East Sussex men (my local men predominantly enlisted in Lewes) and were placed in the K1 and maybe K2 Bns leaving the remainder to K3 and consolidation into the SR mentioned above ... Maybe not, the rail system was so good, for example Coppard telling us in 'With a Machine Gun to Cambrai' that he enlisted in Croydon and was off to the Queen's depot in Guildford that afternoon (27th August)

I have two GS prefixed men who were also killed on the 29th at the Keep and luckily one's Service Record, GS/38 Pte Sydney John Sealey, survives. GS was the Sussex prefix given, it seems, to time served ex Regulars (Sealey had been 2nd Middlesex pre-war) who re-enlisted, into the SR for "one year or for the duration of the war". So L = Regs; S = SR, GS = re-enlisting time served Regs/SR men and G = Kitchener men ... think I need to invest in Grumpy and Graham's book, thank you for the recommendation. I really want to crack the 2nd Sussex's numbering system and after that the Service bns if time. Just for information, the GS men seem to have been posted to 2nd Sussex in late Nov 1914 (Sealey was at the depot 18th Aug; posted to 3rd Bn 22nd Aug; to 2nd Sussex 23rd Nov)

Back to the 9th East Surrey, I know Michael Lucas is a forum member, so I may PM him to see where he got that info re: the draft to 1st ES, see if it dateable

How the Army responded to the demands of 1914 organizationally I find very interesting

Thanks again

Jim

The War Office issued a statement through the press on 11th Sep 1914 that the minimum height requirements for recruits had been raised to 5' 6" (previously 5' 3" ) and the minimum chest measurement increased to 35 1/2 " (previously 34")..... in late October when recruiting had started to wane, the minimum height was reduced to 5' 4" and shortly afterwards on 5th Nov 1914 the minimum height was again reduced by an inch to the original limits and at the same time the upper age limit was raised to 38 (originally 30).

MG

Sources are spread over WO 162, WO 163 and NATS all held at the National Archives. Contemporary press articles also provide evidence for the changes as the War Office was using the press to convey any changes to recruiting policy - see the Times archives and British Newspaper Archives.

Thank you Martin

[clive_hughes]

Royal Sussex: if it helps, and you're including the Reserve Battalions, there's one William Johnathan Jones who was born at Beaumaris, Anglesey in about 1859. He enlisted in 1879 as no.2381 in the 2nd Battn. Royal Fusiliers and went on to serve in India, reaching Colour Sergeant rank in 1888. On returning to Britain in 1889 he obtained a discharge at his own request by purchase, with good character. He returned to North Wales initially and was married, then moved to the Liverpool area where he is described variously in censuses 1891 & 1911 as a Marine Fireman and a Boiler Attendant (Shipping).

He re-enlisted at Newhaven, Sussex in the R.Sussex Regt. 1914 and was given number GS/776, ending in "B" Company 10th (Reserve) Battn. (formed at Dover, October) as a Colour Sergeant. He died in the Dover Registration District on 28th January 1915 aged 55, and was buried at Dover St.James's Cemetery. Next of kin shown by CWGC as resident Wallasey. Reading the above I wonder whether this otherwise baffling switch from the north-west to a Sussex unit might be because as you say the CO / officers had served with him previously and he was being allowed to retain his former rank? His WO97 papers are online if you want to dig further. He still had relatives in Beaumaris, but isn't commemorated there.

It also explains to me why another man James Hassall from near Market Drayton, Shropshire, a gardener with no previous military experience enlisted on 31st August 1914 at Bognor in the 7th Battalion R.Sussex as G/498 (and not GS, or S etc.). I haven't studied the Sussex prefixes. His niece lives in the same village as myself and his papers also survive in the WO 363 series.

Clive

[Muerrisch]

Some responses to the above flood of info. and comment. I expect the forum will b*gger up the tabulation as usual.

I don't think Martin meant to say " Typically SR battalions had more than double a Regular Service Battalions' war establishment, so initially there was a decent pool of trained Reservists". but if so, it was not the case, in that an SR battalion at full strength was only 606 SR all ranks and 98 regulars all ranks, whereas the WE for regulars was just over 1000 all ranks. The expansion of the SR establishment took place AFTER declaration of war and clearly the new men were not trained. A typical announcement was ACI 288 of 30 Aug 1914 authorising SR unit expansion to 2000 all ranks.

Regarding a soldier's number, yes, time-expired men of all categories who enlisted were to be issued a new number in whatever series their category belonged. This was the invariable rule, not necessarily invariably obeyed. The one major exception was historical ....... the clumsy 1908 retention by some men ex-Militia or ex-VF who "transferred" to the SR or the TF respectively.

ENLISTMENT CRITERIA FOR OTHER RANKS

Date

Minimum height

Minimum age

Maximum age

Other factors

Notes

Source, see footnotes

Pre war

5ft 3ins

18

[boys 14]

25

[boys 16]

Men: Weight 112lb minimum, chest 33½ins minimum, with 2ins expansion. Teeth, hearing etc sound, and no disease.

Men not to be sent for active service until age 19, with a few exceptions permitted at CO’s discretion, drummers and equivalent. [some boys were recruited for drums, band, tailors etc].

³

7/8^th Aug 1914

5ft 3ins

19

30

Minimum chest 34ins

Including married men and widowers

^{7, 12, 13}

27/28^th Aug 1914

5ft 3ins

19

35*

*45 years ex soldiers’ 50 years some NCOs

¹³

11^th Sep 1914

5ft 6ins except ex-soldiers

19

35

Minimum chest

35 ½

Designed to slow the rate of recruiting

^{7,13, 14}

11^th Oct 1914

5ft 5ins

¹⁵

23^rd Oct 1914

5ft 4ins

19

38

⁷

5^th Nov 1914

5ft 3ins

Minimum chest

34 ½ **

** a little later , The Story of Lord Kitchener p 248

¹⁵

Feb 1915

5ft 2ins

Temporary reduction in height standards for Welsh infantry, to combat the recruitment of Bantams under 5ft 3ins, primarily into 15Cheshire

⁷

May 1915

5ft 1in

⁷

31^st May 1915

5ft 2 ins

19

40

Minimum chest

33 ½ ***

*** The Story of Lord Kitchener p 249

AO 217/15 and ¹⁴

Consequences of the Military Service Acts 1916 to 1919

January 1916

Conscripted all single men and childless widowers aged 18-41. “Home service only” TF men conscripted and TF men not allowed discharge on termination of engagement.

May 1916

Conscripted all men aged 18-41

April 1917

Selected more men from protected industries and some previously unfit

July 1917

Conscripted British subjects living abroad, and Allied nations subjects living in Britain [a reciprocal agreement also applied]

February 1918

Reduced exemptions from conscription

April 1918

Conscripted men 41 to 50 and allows possible upper age extension to 56, together with the end of most exemptions

April 1919

Continued compulsory service until 30^th April 1920