Lancashire Gravestone Photos Request

[Anne 1974]

These are the other photos I have of John leach Woolley. Anne 

one is with 3 of his 5 sisters. 

[Anne 1974]

This is John leach woolley on the left with an unknown regular soldier to the right. Apparently his uniform was training reserve showing that he was under 18 and not yet allowed to fight in France 

this is the last picture that I have 

[FROGSMILE]

The first photo with a soldier holding his rifle is wearing the badge of the South Wales Borderers (the hut behind is typical of those used by the Training Reserve).  Probably the 57th Training Reserve formed from the 9th Service Battalion SWB (raised at Pembroke Dock),  which had moved to be in the 13th Reserve [training] Brigade at Kinmel Park on 1st September 1916.

In the second photo where a cap is being worn the soldier’s badge is for the Welsh Regiment.  The hatless soldier wears a standard service dress uniform and there’s nothing to pin him down to the Training Reserve, although his obvious youth would suggest that’s probably what he was. 

Edited 12 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Anne 1974]

Thank you for posting this. I do appreciate it. Very interesting for me to find out things about him 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Anne 1974 said:

Thank you for posting this. I do appreciate it. Very interesting for me to find out things about him 

I’m glad to help Anne, the cap badges are both Welsh of course and that matches because the training reserve units for the three Welsh line infantry regiments were all based at Kinmel Park, near Rhyl, from September 1916 until the end of the war.  I always think of it as a sort of nursery school for soldiers, as they all arrived at a set age still in their teens, trained together, largely embarked for France together (albeit in groups), and then finally died, or survived together.  It was a very industrialised process to continuously provide reinforcements to replace the constant drum beat of casualties within the battalion’s of the front line.

Edited 12 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Anne 1974]

Thank you. So young. I heard that his medals hung in the Liverpool house. He died three weeks before the end of the war and just before his 19th birthday. Would you have any idea what medal that might have been - and would it only have been issued to his parents owing to his death ?

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Anne 1974 said:

Thank you. So young. I heard that his medals hung in the Liverpool house. He died three weeks before the end of the war and just before his 19th birthday. Would you have any idea what medal that might have been - and would it only have been issued to his parents owing to his death ?

He very likely had qualified for the two most common medals, the War Medal and the Victory Medal.  There was also a star of two categories that was awarded only to those who had been in the war since 1914 or 1915.  It wasn’t awarded to those who embarked for war after January 1916.

Do you know what regiment John was serving with when he was killed Anne, because it’s not necessarily the same as the one in your photographs?

Edited 12 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[RaySearching]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Do you know what regiment John was serving with when he was killed Anne, because it’s not necessarily the same as the one in your photographs?

As Medal Roll   KOSLI

His WFA /fold3 pension ledger card

Ray

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

As Medal Roll   KOSLI

His WFA /fold3 pension ledger card

Ray

Thank you Ray, much appreciated and that fits.  The KSLI shared several facilities with the Welsh line regiments, including records offices and regional [administrative] command.  I can’t recall offhand if they shared the infantry base depot in France.

Edited 12 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Anne 1974]

Thank you both for this. I’m really grateful. It’s just amazing to access this information and the knowledge that you guys have. 

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

As Medal Roll   KOSLI

His WFA /fold3 pension ledger card

Ray

Are you able to access the 7th Battalion KSLI war diary to get an idea what happened early in October 1918, assuming that John’s wounds were received days before he died?

[RaySearching]

Ann The 7th Bn KSLI war diary can be downloaded free from the national archives (you will have to register first (also free)

whilst it may not mention John by name it will give you an idea of any battles he was involved in prior to being wounded 

and evacuated home

LINK TO WAR DIARY

Edit Frogsmile  I was typing a link to the diary when you posted

Edited 12 November , 2022 by RaySearching

[Anne 1974]

Thank you. I will find it and look and the update the blog. I was told he was shot in the leg in France and taken to a hospital in Scotland where he died.  I’ll get more details of the battle he was involved in. Thank you for signposting me to that 

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

Ann The 7th Bn KSLI war diary can be downloaded free from the national archives (you will have to register first (also free)

whilst it may not mention John by name it will give you an idea of any battles he was involved in prior to being wounded 

and evacuated home

LINK TO WAR DIARY

Edit Frogsmile  I was typing a link to the diary when you posted

I’m not a member and prefer not to be Ray.  I was just wondering if anyone else could access it and provide a brief synopsis that gave an idea of what likely happened with John.

Edited 12 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Ian Riley]

Eeek! 

Warrington Cemetery –
Thomas John CORRIN Ian Riley {provisional} 

A promise made nearly ten years ago  when I was in the middle of six months of fairly severe medical treatment that eventually affected driving for a while. I am afraid that it slipped my mind. Is this a photo that you are still after?

 

Ian

[alf mcm]

2 hours ago, Anne 1974 said:

Thank you. I will find it and look and the update the blog. I was told he was shot in the leg in France and taken to a hospital in Scotland where he died.  I’ll get more details of the battle he was involved in. Thank you for signposting me to that 

Anne,

  Thanks for posting the photographs.

  John received a gunshot wound to his thigh about 2 weeks before he died, and fractured a femur 4 days before he died. He probably arrived at BangourEdinburgh War Hospital {Bangour} 2 or 3 days after the fracture. Despite it's name the hospital is not in Edinburgh but in West Lothian, which was then known as Linlithgowshire.

Regards,

Alf McM

[alf mcm]

1 hour ago, Ian Riley said:

Eeek! 

Warrington Cemetery –
Thomas John CORRIN Ian Riley {provisional} 

A promise made nearly ten years ago  when I was in the middle of six months of fairly severe medical treatment that eventually affected driving for a while. I am afraid that it slipped my mind. Is this a photo that you are still after?

 

Ian

Ian,

   Good of you to get back to me, but there is no need to worry.  I managed to locate a couple of photographs on Findmypast. My apologies for not taking your name off the first post in this thread {now done}.

Regards,

Alf McM

[FROGSMILE]

34 minutes ago, alf mcm said:

Anne,

  Thanks for posting the photographs.

  John received a gunshot wound to his thigh about 2 weeks before he died, and fractured a femur 4 days before he died. He probably arrived at BangourEdinburgh War Hospital {Bangour} 2 or 3 days after the fracture. Despite it's name the hospital is not in Edinburgh but in West Lothian, which was then known as Linlithgowshire.

Regards,

Alf McM

Thanks Alf, I was curious about what had happened to him.  To have fractured his femur, presumably whilst in care and weeks after he received the GSW seems odd.  Perhaps he fell out of bed or was dropped from a stretcher during some kind of transit.

Edited 13 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[alf mcm]

Frogsmile,

  Thanks for your explanation. It now seems that John was in Bangour earlier than I thought and may have fractured his femur there.

  The 7th KSLI war diary is also available on Ancestry;- https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/643408:60779?_phsrc=SIn3528&_phstart=successSource&ml_rpos=161&queryId=a5d34f764fe9cc6cf0b2fb4113c910db

  It shows a lot of casualties about 2 weeks before John died.

Regards,

Alf McM

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, alf mcm said:

Frogsmile,

  Thanks for your explanation. It now seems that John was in Bangour earlier than I thought and may have fractured his femur there.

  The 7th KSLI war diary is also available on Ancestry;- https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/643408:60779?_phsrc=SIn3528&_phstart=successSource&ml_rpos=161&queryId=a5d34f764fe9cc6cf0b2fb4113c910db

  It shows a lot of casualties about 2 weeks before John died.

Regards,

Alf McM

Thanks Alf, does the relevant war diary entry give any indication as to how the lot of casualties was caused?  Was the battalion in the line and so under the usual shellfire or attacking, etc?  It’s usually possible to get at least a hint.

[alf mcm]

On 27th September the 7th KSLI had 148 other rank casualties.

No casualties on 28th.

On 29th October the 7th KSLI moved to trenches east of Doignes. Casualties included 10 other ranks.

No casualties on 30th.

John's death record on Scotlandspeople says his gunshot wound happened 1/2 a month before his death.

On 1st October an ambulance train arrived with 140 patients at Bangour, which had it's own siding and platform. Only the Scottish patients are named.

A train with 130 patients arrived on 5th October.

No more trains until after John died.

John could have been on either of the trains mentioned above.

Regards,

Alf McM

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, alf mcm said:

On 27th September the 7th KSLI had 148 other rank casualties.

No casualties on 28th.

On 29th October the 7th KSLI moved to trenches east of Doignes. Casualties included 10 other ranks.

No casualties on 30th.

John's death record on Scotlandspeople says his gunshot wound happened 1/2 a month before his death.

On 1st October an ambulance train arrived with 140 patients at Bangour, which had it's own siding and platform. Only the Scottish patients are named.

A train with 130 patients arrived on 5th October.

No more trains until after John died.

John could have been on either of the trains mentioned above.

Regards,

Alf McM

His wounding seems likely to have been from the usual spasmodic and speculative enemy shellfire, whilst John was in billets, or in the line then, given that there’s no mention of any British offensive operations during that period.  Anne might not have realised that GSW (gun shot wound) was a catch all designation for any projectile, from any kind of gun.  In my curiousity I was trying to give her an approximate idea of what probably happened to John.  I think we’re as close as we’re going to get.  Thank you for your patience Alf.

NB.  148 ORs is a lot of casualties in one day on 27th September (especially given the average battalion strength) , something fairly significant must have occurred on that date. 

Edited 13 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Anne 1974]

Thanks to you all. I have learnt more in the last few days since I joined this site than I ever knew. So informative and I appreciate it 

[clk]

Hi Anne,

It would appear that John left what was accepted as being his Will. For a small fee, a low resolution B&W scan copy is available from here. It might only consist of a very few words though, and add little to what you already know. 

John appears as wounded on this causality list dated 21st October 1918 - link. NB as a very rough rule of thumb, the date of the lists post dated the actual event from something like 4 to 6 weeks. Whilst it may, or may not relate to his eventual death, it might be possible to date the wounding to within a couple of days, or so, by looking for surviving service files for men from his Regiment (and if possible men from his Battalion) who appear on the list to see if there is a commonality of wounding dates, from which you might be able to make a reasonable inference about John, and then cross reference back to the unit war diary to see if anything obvious stands out.

Regards
Chris

[alf mcm]

Anne,

  When John died he had £10.11s.1d. in his army bank account. This sum included a war gratuity of £5. All of this money was paid to his mother on 1st August 1919. The £5 gratuity indicates that John had enlisted {or been conscripted} at some time after 14th October 1917.  UK, Army Registers of Soldiers' Effects, 1901-1929 - Ancestry.co.uk

Regards,

Alf McM