Another Scottish Uniform Conundrum

[FROGSMILE]

I enclose an image of a soldier in Scottish style uniform taken in Kent by a Maidstone photographer some time in WW1.

This photo is very intriguing indeed. As well as leather 'football' buttons, the jacket has scalloped flaps to its chest pockets, which is not usual for other ranks pattern uniform and yet that is clearly what the status of the man shown is. He also appears to have a plain coloured rather than tartan kilt and a diced glengarry bonnet, but unfortunately the badge cannot be seen. The only regiment with a plain kilt (Hodden Grey) was the London Scottish, but they had a plain blue glengarry, not a diced one. To my eyes it does look as if the kilt is made of the same khaki material as the jacket, but I am unaware of any units that wore a khaki kilt in WW1. His jacket is not a standard 1902 pattern Service Dress, but a tailor made pattern of superior, less coarse cloth and leather 'football' style buttons. He is also wearing the waist belt of either, the Canadian Oliver pattern, or the 1914 leather equipment that was issued specifically to the war-raised Service Battalions of Kitchener's New Armies.

I have learned that - "The British procured a drab (i.e. khaki) kilt in 1914 through 1915 for Temporary issue. A few British (Highland) Battalions (10th BN BW) got these temporarily, but the majority went to Canadian units, as Canadian units were last on the chain for issue of Kilts from the RACD." (information courtesy of Mr Joe Sweeney who seems to have an unparalleled collection of primary source documentation).

Apparently at least two Canadian (CEF) units wore this "drab" (the official term used) kilt, the 16th and 73rd Battalions CEF. The fact that it was a Canadian unit would also explain the scalloped pocket flaps, some of which were due to private tailoring. In some Canadian 'Highlander' battalions a khaki glengarry was also worn. A number of Canadian units were based at Sandling (West and East Camps), near to Folkestone (Kent), during the period after they landed in England and before deploying to France & Flanders.

One unit that fits the bill, but that did not deploy to F&F as a discrete body is the 241st Bn Canadian Scottish Borderers, who wore a khaki kilt and blue, diced glengarry, but who on arrival in Britain were sent to make up the numbers of the 5th Reserve Battalion in West Sandling, as they were not a full strength unit in their own right. It seems that this young man took the opportunity to have his photo taken whilst he still had his Scottish style uniform.

However, it seems that as well as some Service battalions of the Black Watch, 7th Battalion of the Seaforth Highlanders wore a khaki kilt throughout the war. The only battalion of those two regiments to spend any time in Kent is the 15th Battalion of the Black Watch, who were raised in Deal in 1918. Significantly the Seaforths also wore a diced glengarry (which the Black Watch did not), but they did not have the dark hair sporran shown in the photo so, all-in-all, a Canadian still seems the more likely.

[Guest]

The Toronto Scottish wore Hodden Grey and had a diced glengarry. According to the first link (below) they were the only other unit to wear Hodden Grey. The Toronto Scottish did not form until 1921 and did not wear the Hodden grey kilt until this time, which might eliminate this option if the photo is pre 1921. The Toronto Scottish had its roots in the 75th Bn CEF.

Scroll down on both.....

http://www.tartansau...mental-tartans/

http://www.canadians...glengarries.htm

Edit the second link shows a 241st Bn glengarry with red and white dicing (not blue diced).....allegedly an original.....

MG

[FROGSMILE]

The Toronto Scottish wore Hodden Grey and had a diced glengarry. According to the first lin they were the only other unit to wear Hodden Grey.

Scroll down on both.....

http://www.tartansau...mental-tartans/

http://www.canadians...glengarries.htm

I had already discounted them Martin. The Toronto Scottish, was formed in 1920 from a veteran unit (re-titled) that had fought in WW1. The Toronto Scottish obtained permission to emulate the London Scottish dress, but with a diced glengarry. Unfortunately it does not seem possible for the Toronto Scottish to be the unit seen here as the date that Scottish dress was after WW1.

The 219th Highland Battalion (Nova Scotia), however, had also worn a khaki kilt, but with a khaki balmoral rather than a glengarry, and they too did not deploy as a discrete body, but on arrival in Britain (also in Kent) built up the numbers of the 17th Reserve Battalion (Nova Scotia) in 1917.

[Guest]

My edit crossed with your post.

[FROGSMILE]

My edit crossed with your post.

I did not say that the dicing itself was blue Martin, there is a comma there . It was a blue, diced (i.e. conventionally, so I did not stipulate further) glengarry.

[dundeesown]

What picture ?

Ghttp://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=86559&hl=%20black%20%20watch%20%20drab%20%20kilt&st=25

[Steven Broomfield]

What picture ?

Thanks. I was too polite to ask.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks. I was too polite to ask.

It was in the duplicate post, somehow there was a glitch in the server when uploading from my end. I have sorted the photo but can't delete the duplicate. Frustrating!

[Joe Sweeney]

Frogsmile,

Due to reduction in pleats I'd say that was a Drab Kilt.

Drab kilts were fairly commonly worn in the UK and overs seas by Britih units. I know of the 12th A&SH and 10th BW that had them in theatre and they are commonly mentioned in clothing scales--that is troop with drab kilts would not recieve an apron.

As for that unit????

Joe Sweeney

[rd72]

Hi all,

If I may interject with the observation that this man is wearing a P14 Belt as is evidenced by the leather keeper at the buckle. Canadian units were not issued the P14 equipment therefore discounting the possibility of this man being from a Canadian unit. As for drab kilts, for interest's sake, Mike Chappell did a plate of such an example...

Rob

[4thGordons]

Rob....thanks for that... I have been puzzling over this rather damaged example in my collection. Although is this actually a drab kilt? as it appears (in both Chappel's illustration and my photo) to have a pattern (however muted) and I thought drab kilts were plain

Chris

Edited 16 April , 2013 by 4thGordons

[4thGordons]

Here (LEFT) is a picture of a young Gordon in what I believe to be a drab kilt (the only picture I have of a Gordon in one - although I lost one on eBay recently) and on the right a London Scottish Hodden Grey Kilt.

Chris

[4thGordons]

As for that unit????

Joe Sweeney

Frogsmile/ Joe - I am tempted to go with Liverpool Scottish again here.

I have a set of photos of the Liverpool Scottish from early in the war when quite a number have leather buttons andthe scalloped pockets. Sporran colours would be correct too would they not. In the photos the men wear a selection of Pattern 14 equipment and others have pre war Territorial Pattern 1908 webbing (with only three ammunition pouches per side)

Here is a detail from one of the pictures (bandsmen resting and playing with chicks) to compare:

[4thGordons]

Here is another group shot of Liverpool Scottish (signals) again with several men displaying scalloped pockets and football buttons.

If I recall correctly these photos were from Tunbrige Wells and both the 2/10th (Scottish) Battalion, The King's (Liverpool Regiment) TF was there from the end of February 1915 for three months. The 1/10 KLR had been there as well when on their way to France in October 1914; they left Southampton on 1 November 1914. (Thanks to Ian Riley for this from an earlier thread from which the pictures are gone)

Chris

[rd72]

Chris,

Interesting picture. It would seem to parallel the artist's plate, previously posted, even down to the sporran style. (Donned for the picture only, I might say) Do you have the ability to examine the collar badges more closely? They seem to be of the maple leaf pattern rather than the "C over number" style.

I might make an observation on the Hodden Grey vs the drab. Notwithstanding the evolution of colours and shades used by the military over generations, Hodden Grey has a rather "pinkish" hue to it that isn't quite the same "drab" as might be found in a drab kilt which might, (should I speculate...) more closely resemble the shade of the tunic.

Though modern, this serves to demonstrate the slight difference in shade of the Grey....

The photography of the era might not really show the difference in the examples shown in the previously posted images (Gordon and LS)

Rob

[FROGSMILE]

Frogsmile,

Due to reduction in pleats I'd say that was a Drab Kilt.

Drab kilts were fairly commonly worn in the UK and overs seas by Britih units. I know of the 12th A&SH and 10th BW that had them in theatre and they are commonly mentioned in clothing scales--that is troop with drab kilts would not recieve an apron.

As for that unit????

Joe Sweeney

Thanks Joe, even with the limitations of b&w photography it does look very much as if the kilt is made of the same material or at least the same hue as the jacket. As for the unit, I found a publication by Rene Chartrand that lists all the Canadian units and what they wore.

A key point is that the soldier does not appear to be wearing a kilt cover, but an actual drab kilt.

[FROGSMILE]

Hi all,

If I may interject with the observation that this man is wearing a P14 Belt as is evidenced by the leather keeper at the buckle. Canadian units were not issued the P14 equipment therefore discounting the possibility of this man being from a Canadian unit. As for drab kilts, for interest's sake, Mike Chappell did a plate of such an example...

Rob

Thanks for confirmation in ruling out the Oliver belt Rob. The absence of collar badges has been bothering me and I have posted this photo precisely because it throws up so many questions.

[FROGSMILE]

Rob....thanks for that... I have been puzzling over this rather damaged example in my collection. Although is this actually a drab kilt? as it appears (in both Chappel's illustration and my photo) to have a pattern (however muted) and I thought drab kilts were plain

Chris

Fascinating picture Chris and clearly shows a drab kilt with a muted over check to my eyes. Even the sporran seems unusual.

[FROGSMILE]

Here is another group shot of Liverpool Scottish (signals) again with several men displaying scalloped pockets and football buttons.

If I recall correctly these photos were from Tunbrige Wells and both the 2/10th (Scottish) Battalion, The King's (Liverpool Regiment) TF was there from the end of February 1915 for three months. The 1/10 KLR had been there as well when on their way to France in October 1914; they left Southampton on 1 November 1914. (Thanks to Ian Riley for this from an earlier thread from which the pictures are gone)

Chris

You might well have it Chris given the key factor of a Kent location. I too had seen Liverpool Scottish in the scalloped pockets and leather buttons so that fits part of the puzzle. It would also explain the absence of collar badges and, for me an even more key point, it fits with what little of the shape of the cap badge that can be seen in the mystery photo. Even the sporran is a perfect match other than that its badge cannot be seen. The only sticking point then is the drab kilt as opposed to kilt cover. We do not seem to have any evidence that the Liverpool Scottish ever wore drab kilts?

[4thGordons]

We do not seem to have any evidence that the Liverpool Scottish ever wore drab kilts?

Correct - I have no photos showing that nor to my knowledge have I seen any. Ian Riley might be your man to confirm/deny this. As I understood it, the intention early was that everyone would wear drab kilts but that there was substantial resistance from battalions and their issue widespread but inconsistent. Of all my Gordons photos - the one posted above is the only one I have showing a drab kilt.

Chris

[gordon92]

I concur that the sporran is consistent with that worn by Liverpool Scottish. However, I am troubled by what little can be seen of the cap badge on the original photo. There appears to be a central protuberance at the top, perhaps a crown, rather than the St. Andrew's cross protuberances that would be on the flanks at the top and bottom of the badge. I do not as yet buy into the Liverpool Scottish hypothesis but am unable to offer any fresh ideas. If it were not for the fact that Canadians did not wear 1914 equipment, I would say that the cap badge is possibly a maple leaf.

[Black Watch]

From what I can see of the badge, the Scottish regiments that fit best would be Argylls and KOSB.

[servicepub]

Frogsmile's comment (in post #1) "In some Canadian 'Highlander' battalions a khaki glengarry was also worn" needs to be corrected. Although the Canadian Department of Militia and Defence had khaki Glengarries manufactured, these were roundly condemned by the overseas highland battalions and were not worn overseas. A few home-based battalions may have adoted them but photographic evidence is lacking.

Clive

[FROGSMILE]

Frogsmile's comment (in post #1) "In some Canadian 'Highlander' battalions a khaki glengarry was also worn" needs to be corrected. Although the Canadian Department of Militia and Defence had khaki Glengarries manufactured, these were roundly condemned by the overseas highland battalions and were not worn overseas. A few home-based battalions may have adoted them but photographic evidence is lacking.

Clive

That's interesting Clive, I had not realised that they were not worn overseas.

I said that "In some Canadian 'Highlander' battalions a khaki glengarry was also worn" because it seems that some of the Highlander battalions in Canada did wear them, as that is what has been recorded in their regimental histories.

Given that that information came from Canada, perhaps it would be more generous to 'revise' rather than to 'correct'. I don't think we are point scoring here, are we?

[Andrew Upton]

Frogsmile's comment (in post #1) "In some Canadian 'Highlander' battalions a khaki glengarry was also worn" needs to be corrected. Although the Canadian Department of Militia and Defence had khaki Glengarries manufactured, these were roundly condemned by the overseas highland battalions and were not worn overseas. A few home-based battalions may have adoted them but photographic evidence is lacking.

Have a look here, an excellent example of an attributed khaki glengarry in Canadian use (with matching SD jacket), plus a photo of one being clearly worn by an identified Canadian soldier:

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/cef/headgear/cefch08.htm