ph0ebus Posted 4 April , 2013 Share Posted 4 April , 2013 Hi all, In exploring the area near my new job I found an 'Antique store' that has literally buckets and piles of bayonets. I spotted quite a few German and British ones right off but as it was closing time, did not have a chance to dig in, so to speak. Other WWI militaria too (rifles, helmets, shells). I think I am about to go broke! I ma post some queries here as I am of the mind to get at least one or two bayonets and may need some guidance on what the heck I am looking at before laying out the cash. Details to follow! -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 4 April , 2013 Share Posted 4 April , 2013 Sounds like you've hit the jackpot Daniel.!! But just be careful - the devil is always in the detail ie. establishing correct model vs. value is important. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 4 April , 2013 Author Share Posted 4 April , 2013 Naturally, he was closed today. I was thinking of initially picking up one (or both) of the German bayonets he has; one is the larger butcher bayonet (sans scabbard) which was, in terms of condition, maybe a 6 or 7 out of 10. I could not make out the manufacturer but maybe tomorrow I'll have time to take a closer look. The other was a much smaller bayonet (maybe what is called the K98?), similar 'scales' (handles) as the butcher and was made by Solingen. Blade was bright but again, no scabbard. No unit marks that I could see, but again, I only got a quick look. Condition I would say 7, or 7.5... -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 April , 2013 Share Posted 6 April , 2013 Lucky you on that find! But please don't become a value-investment collector, as the real joy is in having a collection! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 6 April , 2013 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2013 Oh, fear not. I usually buy the lower end stuff nobody else wants. I prefer items that have a story to tell and that I can handle without fear of damaging them. With these, I just know little about bayonets and don't like overpaying for stuff. I found two other stores nearby and they too have lots of bayonets! Their stuff was much older, like French Franco-Prussian war-era and older, or Nazi era and newer. Some rifles, too but I'm not too interested in those. One store had about a half dozen German regimental steins, which I may start a thread on...I can't tell the old from the repros but the prices were pretty good. I am back in that area Tuesday so hopefully by then I may have an update. Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 6 April , 2013 Share Posted 6 April , 2013 Lucky devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 13 April , 2013 Author Share Posted 13 April , 2013 So, I bought my very first bayonet today. I bought the smaller Solingen German bayonet for twenty-five bucks. I'll post pics so folks can laugh at my purchase later. I'll need a little help figuring out what exactly I have, as it has a lot of marks and numbers on it... Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 13 April , 2013 Share Posted 13 April , 2013 $25.00 for almost any Great War bayonet is a pretty good price whatever it is these days IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 13 April , 2013 Share Posted 13 April , 2013 Indeed! Looking forward to the pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 13 April , 2013 Share Posted 13 April , 2013 Hmmm, unless it is a Chilean M1895 contract, also made by Weyersberg, Kirschbaum & Cie of Solingen, which are very common these days. They are nice looking bayonets, don't get me wrong - Solingen bayonets are made of the best quality steel ... but they just seem to be everywhere. Check this link HERE for some photos. I may be wrong but "lot of marks and numbers" would usually indicate an export bayonet to South America. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 14 April , 2013 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2013 Hmmm, unless it is a Chilean M1895 contract, also made by Weyersberg, Kirschbaum & Cie of Solingen, which are very common these days. They are nice looking bayonets, don't get me wrong - Solingen bayonets are made of the best quality steel ... but they just seem to be everywhere. Check this link HERE for some photos. I may be wrong but "lot of marks and numbers" would usually indicate an export bayonet to South America. Cheers, S>S Hm, well, what I bought looks very different, but the proof will be in the pics, tomorrow morning. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 14 April , 2013 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2013 Ok: so first a description of the marks and then the pics. Bayonet is 15" end to end. Blade is marked K&C Solingen on the ricasso. On that same side stamped into the guard is the number 8834. On the back of the blade near where it meets the guard is a crown, a W and what appears to be 07, though the left half of the 0 is missing. Below that is another much smaller crown and the number 19 below it. I'll take as good a set of pics as I can and upload them now. -Daniel EDIT: correction, there is a faint W before the K & C, so I guess it is a Weyersberg, Kirschbaum & Cie bayonet after all. I'd like to know what the date marks mean, though. Also, no scabbard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 14 April , 2013 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2013 Pic 1 Pic 2 Pic 3 Pic 4 Pic 5 Pic 6 So, what say you? (crosses fingers) -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spconnolly007 Posted 14 April , 2013 Share Posted 14 April , 2013 The experts will be along soon enough, but W is for Wilhelm and sadly the blade has been cut down! First of many though Daniel Regards, Sean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 14 April , 2013 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2013 The experts will be along soon enough, but W is for William and sadly the blade has been cut down! First of many though Daniel Regards, Sean. How long should this have been originally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 14 April , 2013 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2013 I just noticed yet another crowned mark on the top of the guard! Looks like a crown with a fancy 18 underneath it but I don't think it is actually an 18 since the bottom of the 8 has some sort of curled tail coming off the base of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spconnolly007 Posted 14 April , 2013 Share Posted 14 April , 2013 How long should this have been originally? Daniel, if its what I think it is, a Sword Bayonet, then 25" overall length. No doubt SS and 4th Gordons will confirm all in good time. Regards, Sean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 14 April , 2013 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2013 Daniel, if its what I think it is, a Sword Bayonet, then 25" overall length. No doubt SS and 4th Gordons will confirm all in good time. Regards, Sean. Ah, I see what you mean. Well, if it is (was) a sword bayonet, the reconfiguration looks like it was done a long time ago. The bayonet itself is actually pretty well balanced as knives go in its current form...balances nicely on your finger if it's placed right under the oil holes. So, if this modification was done back in the GW-era, would this still qualify as a bayonet, or some sort of trench knife, or something else entirely? -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 14 April , 2013 Share Posted 14 April , 2013 Hi Daniel - well I was kind of on the right track with your bayonet, it is a WKC (Solingen) and it is an export ... and sadly that's not a good thing. On the other hand it is a tidy little bayonet and in relatively good condition for what it is. It was originally an S98 before becoming a 'Turked' one. So when it was new it was a Prussian issue Seitengewehr 98 in 1907 (W/07) for the Gewehr 98 rifle, and very standard at the start of the war. The other crowned mark is a 'fraktur' inspection mark. And unfortunately the digits on the crossguard are the Turkish serial/ownership numbers. After the war the Turks received large amounts of the leftover German bayonets, and then in a later refurbishment programme butchered them. You can tell this is one of those because it was cutdown to their standard ~250mm blade length. They certainly ruined a lot of nice collectables.! There are huge amounts of this Turkish surplus in the States and mostly it is quite battered and normally cheap, however some like to collect it. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 14 April , 2013 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2013 Hi Daniel - well I was kind of on the right track with your bayonet, it is a WKC (Solingen) and it is an export ... and sadly that's not a good thing. On the other hand it is a tidy little bayonet and in relatively good condition for what it is. It was originally an S98 before becoming a 'Turked' one. So when it was new it was a Prussian issue Seitengewehr 98 in 1907 (W/07) for the Gewehr 98 rifle, and very standard at the start of the war. The other crowned mark is a 'fraktur' inspection mark. And unfortunately the digits on the crossguard are the Turkish serial/ownership numbers. After the war the Turks received large amounts of the leftover German bayonets, and then in a later refurbishment programme butchered them. You can tell this is one of those because it was cutdown to their standard ~250mm blade length. They certainly ruined a lot of nice collectables.! There are huge amounts of this Turkish surplus in the States and mostly it is quite battered and normally cheap, however some like to collect it. Cheers, S>S So, not a home run, then? Thanks for the backstory! I don't plan on collecting Turkish surplus, but for my first go, I am actually pleased the news wasn't worse, and I actually find the whole story quite interesting. The butcher bayonet he presently has is made by Simson & Co. Currently he is asking $70 but I think that's a bit steep given the condition. I may get that one too if he comes down a bit and the blade wasn't, shall we say, abbreviated by the Turks as well. I'll give it another once over this week to see what other information I can glean from it before starting to haggle. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 15 April , 2013 Share Posted 15 April , 2013 Hi Shippingsteel, Many thanks for the above. I am particularly interested in this thread as recently a friend acquired a cut-down S.98 and I said I would do some research for him. The bayonet in question is in virtually new condition, apart from being cut-down, has a cut-down leather and steel scabbard and has only standard German military markings. In his book "German Bayonets" Vol.II page 127 Anthony Carter refers to seven S.98s all with shortened blades, particularly supplied to naval units. He says: "The first one or two recorded were thought to be damaged bayonets that had been repointed, but seven seem to be more than coincidence. However, if they were officially shortened for some reason they would be expected to be of the same length, and as it is they range from 203mm to 305mm. If they reflected a fault in the blades there would be many more shortened examples with infantry markings but there are not. Three have identifiable markings from the Naval Dockyards, Werft Kiel and Werft Wilhelmshaven". In his book "The Collectors Book of German Bayonets" at Part I pages 373 to 376 Roy Williams illustrates six cut-down S.98s by various makers and two with blade lengths of 250mm and 251mm respectively. In neither book is there any suggestion that the bayonets were shortened post-war. The examples illustrated, apart from the numerals and condition, look almost identical to the one purchased by phOebus. I wonder if you have any more information about the Turkish contract(s) and subsequent shortening of the bayonets? Is it possible that some bayonets that had already been shortened were supplied to Turkey? Any help much appreciated. Regards, Michael H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 15 April , 2013 Share Posted 15 April , 2013 Well anything is possible, and given that the S98 was prone to bending and being damaged, I would be surprised if the Germans did not try to recycle some of them. During the war there was often shortages of bayonets, and pretty much anything with a point was converted and modified to do the job - vis the term 'ersatz' bayonet. That being said the vast majority of cutdown bayonets we see today are definitely of Turkish origin. They made the conversion of bayonets into a very ugly "art form". There is no doubt that this occurred and that they had a standard length as a guide. When you see the S98 & Turk M1890 & M1903 all cut the same length it is a clue. With the books you mention I cannot comment on what those authors thought or examine those examples, but I would question the dates those books were published. Given that the huge mass of Turkish surplus has only really emerged in relatively recent times, it may be possible that our current knowledge has advanced since then. With my study into the markings on the Turkish bayonets, I have collated plenty of images of the cutdown Turkish bayonets, many stamped with the 'modern' numerals. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pighills Posted 15 April , 2013 Share Posted 15 April , 2013 Excellent thread, Daniel you're so lucky to have found those shops. A good education being had by a fair few on bayonets. Many thanks Shipping Steel et al! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 15 April , 2013 Share Posted 15 April , 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 15 April , 2013 Share Posted 15 April , 2013 Daniel, Above are a few original german & turk full length bayonets along with cut down/modified hilt turks. If you check out this link, you will find a few pics that may help you avoid buying any more turked bayonets (need updating as few more additons have sneaked in) http://www.surplusri...p?f=84&t=118848 Nice find anyway mate , I find these interesting whereas S/S wakes up with cold sweats over these images but each collector has their own tastes, guess you just need to decide for yourself what you want to collect but beware this can end up in a serious addiction that can be a bit of a drain on finances or end in divorce Aleck Trajan, S/S, Jscott got a new turk addition on its way that might be of interest to you, will get some pics of it & others that I have picked up (inc. french, austro/hungarian & german) this week as got a few days off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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