spconnolly007 Posted 15 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2012 Horses for courses I suppose Gwyn. It didn't appeal to me in the least, but as I said earlier, it was presumably thought fitting when it was first installed, when that sort of architecture was probably all the rage? I didn't mind the entrance archway, although there was rather a large crack in it as I recall! We share the same sentiments Mike. I also liked the archway, probably 'because' of the large crack in it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Holstein Posted 15 November , 2012 Share Posted 15 November , 2012 I don't think there are any contemporary peacetime ossuaries in France. I don't know what happens today to bones from graves where the concession has come to an end. Gwyn - I'm struck by your reference to the architecture of the Trench of Bayonets as minimalist! To me it's just monstrously huge - although I suppose you might be referring to its undecoratedness. But can something so enormous be minimalist? I must say it doesn't appeal to me although I quite like the Ossuary. The crack will be repaired in time for 2014, at least that's the plan. Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spconnolly007 Posted 15 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2012 The crack will be repaired in time for 2014, at least that's the plan. Christina Hi Christina, if it were my decision, I'd leave the crack. Gives it a certain 'je ne sais quoi' Sean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelcave Posted 15 November , 2012 Share Posted 15 November , 2012 Re Post 185 '1) Can someone please explain why some of the dead are buried to the front of the ossuary, while others are piled up inside? This seems to have happened contemperaneously, ie the French authorities were simultaneously making the cemetery AND the ossuary? Are they all named individuals outside and "inconnu" inside?' The French authorities were somewhat slack in organising orderly burial arrangements during the war. So far as I understand it, the Ossuary was the result of the work of the Bishop of Verdun (and that at ND de Lorette of the Bishop of Arras) and was funded not by the state but by the church, who was also responsible for building it and maintaining it - amongst other things, that's why there's a chapel there. The cemetery was/is the responsibility of the state. On the other hand, I am pretty sure that the state alone financed the restoration of Notre Dame de Lorette, including the basilica there; and I assume that it is footing the bill at Douamont as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spconnolly007 Posted 15 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2012 Nigel, as healdav mentioned earlier, those buried outside are intact, unknown remains, whilst the remains underneath the Ossuary are body parts found in different sectors of the battlefield. Regards Sean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 16 November , 2012 Share Posted 16 November , 2012 Gwyn - I'm struck by your reference to the architecture of the Trench of Bayonets as minimalist! To me it's just monstrously huge - although I suppose you might be referring to its undecoratedness. But can something so enormous be minimalist? I Minimalist architecture is pure in shape, undecorated, geometric. It works in geometries, relationships between geometries, spaces between them, and is independent of scale. There are places where I prefer this to adornment, added symbolism, allegory, and for me the T de B is more effective for being minimalist. I can't think what decorations could possibly enhance its exterior. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Holstein Posted 16 November , 2012 Share Posted 16 November , 2012 The funds needed for the Ossuary were collected world-wide, as is shown by the coats of arms around the front and sides of the building. Nigel is right to say that the cemetery is the responsibility of the state - I believe it comes under the Ministère des Beaux-Arts but I might be wrong. As far as I know it is the state that is funding the current refurbishment of both the cemetery and the Ossuary. Oddly enought, I have heard some criticism of the current state of cleanliness of the Ossuary - it appears there are those who preferred it grey - black to shining white. You can't please everyone. Gwyn, thanks for the explanation. I have not seen minimalist explained before. All I can say is that whatever the geometries involved, the Tr. of Bayonets doesn't work for me. It remains just monstrously huge. In fact, just monstrous will do as far as I'm concerned. However, it is the monument that everyone has heard of and wants to see, even if they are, in my experience, disappointed when they finally get there. Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spconnolly007 Posted 16 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 16 November , 2012 "Oddly enought, I have heard some criticism of the current state of cleanliness of the Ossuary - it appears there are those who preferred it grey". Why? Hi Chrisitina, I need to go back and check, but Im sure one of my photos shows the back of the Ossuary and tower? It looked more black than grey to me. Absolutely filthy. Most of it had been cleaned when we were there, and it looks the better for it in my opinion Sean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Holstein Posted 16 November , 2012 Share Posted 16 November , 2012 Yes, you're right, Sean. They haven't got round to the back yet. It's hard to imagine anyone objecting to that shining white tower but apparently there are some who do. Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 16 November , 2012 Share Posted 16 November , 2012 Gwyn, thanks for the explanation. I have not seen minimalist explained before. All I can say is that whatever the geometries involved, the Tr. of Bayonets doesn't work for me. It remains just monstrously huge. In fact, just monstrous will do as far as I'm concerned. I didn't say I liked it! In my view it works better for being minimalist, that's all. I can't imagine how grotesque it would look if it were also adorned with flights of angels or Marianne clutching the despairing Lorraine, or something. I think it's worth bearing in mind when thinking about French memorial structures that, unlike Britain, memorials of WW1 were the second time round in recent history for national mourning in France. Many places cut their memorial teeth on 1870/1. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spconnolly007 Posted 16 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 16 November , 2012 I didn't say I liked it! Gwyn :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Holstein Posted 16 November , 2012 Share Posted 16 November , 2012 Yes, Gwyn, you're right that it works better than flights of angels or despairing Mariannes. I can't imagine those on that hillside, particularly not in 1920. It would be interesting to know who influenced the design - whether it was simply the architect's idea or whether he had input from the Rand family. It's a long way from French and German 1870 memorials, which I must say I prefer. But they are all much smaller, as was that war. I suppose the massiveness of the Battle of Verdun required massive monuments. Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 20 November , 2012 Share Posted 20 November , 2012 Sean, I just read the complete thread first time and must say - what a remarkable and informative thread! Great pictures pair with interesting narratives. Well done and thank you for your effort to post here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spconnolly007 Posted 21 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 21 November , 2012 egbert, thankyou very much for your kind words, Im glad you enjoyed it. Looking forward to your return and the continuation of your thread Kind regards, Sean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbillington Posted 25 November , 2012 Share Posted 25 November , 2012 Some fantastic images there. Aside from the British, French and US memorials, any sign of anything to commemorate the German losses? Hi NickM99 I have sent you a link to a site covering Verdun and include German memorial sites and cemitries Regards Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbillington Posted 25 November , 2012 Share Posted 25 November , 2012 egbert, thankyou very much for your kind words, Im glad you enjoyed it. Looking forward to your return and the continuation of your thread Kind regards, Sean. Hi Sean This was a great thread. Very interesting and thanks for posting. While I appreciate this is a largely British attended forum there isn't enough on Verdun on the site. Thanks Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spconnolly007 Posted 26 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 November , 2012 Thanks Guy, glad you enjoyed it. Regards, Sean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Holstein Posted 27 November , 2012 Share Posted 27 November , 2012 There are still strong feelings in Verdun on the question of German memorials. There is a small German memorial on the Mort-Homme but as far as I know that is the only one on the Verdun battlefield. The feeling in Verdun is still that the Germans should not be commemorated there. There are German memorials in cemeteries to the rear, some of which are original. The Mort-Homme memorial was placed there some years ago by a thoughtful member of Souvenir Français as a replacement for a wooden one that had rotted away but the idea that a German memorial should stand there aroused the ire of some local veteran organisations who arranged for another French memorial to be implanted just in front of it. It commemorates both sides but given the open space on the top of the Mort-Homme it could have stood elsewhere. The German flag on the top of Fort Douaumont, which was placed there three years ago, has been torn down twice recently, together with the European flag. The current Mayor of Verdun is recorded as saying that he would remove the German flag permanently if he could. The situation isn't the same elsewhere. The big memorial cross at the Haute Chevauchée in the heart of the Argonne Forest commemorates all the dead of the Argonne without distinction of nationality. German sites are open to the public there, as they are on the Butte de Vauquois and elsewhere. In the St. Mihiel Salient a number of interesting German sites are being conserved and opened to the public. Verdun doesn't seem to share in those feelings. Christina Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 27 November , 2012 Share Posted 27 November , 2012 In the village of Flabas on the Verdun Front Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Holstein Posted 28 November , 2012 Share Posted 28 November , 2012 That says it all, Norman, at least as regards local ex-servicemen's associations. That memorial is actually a copy of the original, which was destroyed by German troops in 1940. Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 30 November , 2012 Share Posted 30 November , 2012 Thanks for the information Christina, here is a link from the internet on the subject. http://pierreswester...ille-d-chaumont Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spconnolly007 Posted 30 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 30 November , 2012 Thanks for the link Norman. Sean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Holstein Posted 30 November , 2012 Share Posted 30 November , 2012 There's another copy of the memorial in the Faubourg Pavé cemetery in Verdun. It stands between the graves of two men said to have been murdered by the Gestapo. As far as I remember, the inscription on it refers to 1940 - 45, even though the monument originally commemorated 1914 - 18. Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithjk Posted 30 November , 2012 Share Posted 30 November , 2012 Correct Christina. As you can see, it commemorates '1914-18' and also '1939-45' Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 30 November , 2012 Share Posted 30 November , 2012 Going back to the little "discussion" re crosses on the shells....surely depictions of the Croix De Gurre or Croix Du Combattants! TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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