FROGSMILE Posted 12 October , 2012 Share Posted 12 October , 2012 The top example looks like that of a nurse. The lower 2 ? I shall contact Capt. Henshall again, just to see if he had any luck finding a photograph of what he calls the ' cavalry officers dress belt ' in wear ', it will be interesting to see if he has such a photograph ? The only one I could find, was that in my post # 9, which is the typical military brocade dress belt, or perhaps someone has a photograph of an officer's lady wearing such a belt, that would be helpful. Regards, LF For post 21 the lower belt is RA and the middle belt 4th Hussars. The top example has colours of the Blues and Royals, RF and RWF, but no insignia. I never say never, but I have been studying British Army uniforms for a long time now and have not so far seen a belt buckle of this precise double (or nursing) style worn with any uniform, cavalry or otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 14 October , 2012 Share Posted 14 October , 2012 We have two examples of these 'ladies belts' with Suffolk Regiment badges in the Suffolk Regiment Museum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 October , 2012 Share Posted 14 October , 2012 We have two examples of these 'ladies belts' with Suffolk Regiment badges in the Suffolk Regiment Museum. I have noticed that all those that I have seen have a Imperial (ERVII/GRV/GRVI) crown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 14 October , 2012 Share Posted 14 October , 2012 We have two examples of these 'ladies belts' with Suffolk Regiment badges in the Suffolk Regiment Museum. Chief Chum, Being no expert whatsoever on these belts, I do not know what to make of them. I am still unconvinced as to their being a ' ladies belt ', which it has been suggested would be worn at a formal regimental event/evening. I just cannot see any self respecting ' officer's lady ' spending money on an evening gown, only to then tie a belt such as those shown in post #21 around her waist! I would love to see a photograph of such a belt being worn by an officer's lady, and then, I am sure I would be convinced. To me, the belts shown in post #21 look very military, and very un-ladylike. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 October , 2012 Share Posted 14 October , 2012 There were of course gilt lace belts worn with full dress uniform for a period. It is the buckle that is the key feature. In my experience there are generally three types of military buckle, a conventional locket type (see enclosed image), a rectangular plate (popular with the Royal Engineers and some others) and a traditional snake link (gilded), generally with an oval boss on each side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 October , 2012 Share Posted 14 October , 2012 What are reputed to be ladies belts, however, seem to invariably be open work plates overlaid with the regimental badge as shown again with these examples. The open work form is very feminine and unlike anything I have ever seen worn by a male officer. What it seems might have happened is that some officers ladies thought it would be de rigeur to use a nursing type open work buckle (popular at the time of the Boer war) twinned with the regiment's lace and then inset with a regimental badge, usually a small collar badge, presumably because the scale was right for ladies generally diminutive waists (at a time when wearing corsets was the norm). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 15 October , 2012 Share Posted 15 October , 2012 " I am still unconvinced as to their being a ' ladies belt '" Hi LF, Dress Regulations for pre-Great War Officers are very clear and they make no mention of effeminate buckles with two gilt cap badges on open work backings, mounted on lace belts! I agree that the top belt in post 21 looks pretty grim but, to be honest, it doesn't look like any of the others either; no regimental badge and no lace. All the rest would look very impressive if the gold lace was still as bright as the day it was made, buckled around tiny ladies waists - and these belts are nearly always tiny. Finding photographs of Officers' wives wearing them may be tricky but the world is awash with very good, clear photographs of British Officers in every form of dress and I have never seen any showing men wearing these belts (but I am always happy to be proved wrong). They will all have been supplied by one of the major badge manufacturers so they probably appear in a catalogue somewhere. Next time I am in Bury St Edmunds I will take a photograph of the two in the Suffolk Regiment Museum. We may even have details of them in the accession book which could tell us who donated them, and when. The original caption in the case certainly identified them as Ladies Belts. Cheers, Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 15 October , 2012 Share Posted 15 October , 2012 Taff, Thanks for all the excellent information. I am surprised that with all the many, many Regimental Dinners/Functions etc., over the years, there is a distinct lack of photographs showing these belts in use, either by officers or their ladies. Prior to Capt. Henshall at the Dragoon Museum telling me they were a cavalry officer's belt, I also thought they did not resemble the usual officers brocade belt, now, I am unsure, and shall await photographic evidence of either their being a cavalry officer's belt or a belt worn by an officer's lady at a regimental function. Hopefully, such photographs exist ? Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrydon Posted 16 October , 2012 Share Posted 16 October , 2012 I will find a picture of this type of belt being worn ( by a lady ) in due course but in the meantime here is another example: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/original-border-regiment-officers-wifes-mess-belt-/330810521357?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item4d05d7f70d P.B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 16 October , 2012 Share Posted 16 October , 2012 I will find a picture of this type of belt being worn ( by a lady ) in due course but in the meantime here is another example: P.B. P.B., Look forward to seeing the photgraph(s) of the belt in wear, that way we shall all know one way or the other. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 16 October , 2012 Share Posted 16 October , 2012 I will find a picture of this type of belt being worn ( by a lady ) in due course but in the meantime here is another example: http://www.ebay.co.u...=item4d05d7f70d P.B. That's a lovely picture of the Border Regt example PB (utilising a collar badge again). Speaking personally, I am certainly convinced now that I have seen so many. It is interesting that irrespective of whether they are artillery, cavalry, or infantry, they all take the same form, in that the buckle is open work, the lace regimental and sometimes, but not always leather backed, and then the buckle inset with a central badge. If they were for male officers the buckles would certainly not be of the same design for different arms of the service. Just as an aside, long before I had ever heard of, or seen one of these buckles, my own wife decided to make something similar up for a regimental guest night one time. However, she used scarlet velvet with a small cockade and two trailing ribbons and placed a collar badge in the centre of the cockade. It really looked the part and I recall that the commanding officer commended her on her fine taste Little did she know that she was not the first by a long chalk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 16 October , 2012 Share Posted 16 October , 2012 That's a lovely picture of the Border Regt example PB (utilising a collar badge again). Speaking personally I am certainly convinced now that I have seen so many. It is interesting that irrespective of whether they are artillery, cavalry, or infantry they all take the same form, in that the buckle is open work, the lace regimental and sometimes, but not always leather backed, the then overlaid with central badge. If they were for male officers the buckles would certainly not be of the same design for different arms of the service. Just as an aside, long before I had ever heard of or seen one of these buckles, my own wife decided to make something similar up for a regimental guest night one time. However, she used scarlet velvet with a small cockade and two trailing ribbons and placed a collar badge in the centre of the cockade. It really looked the part and the commading officer commended her on her fine taste Little did she know that she was not the first by a long chalk! Frogsmile, I agree, these belts are a facinating topic, and I am surprised that a lot more is not documented about them and their use. The examples you have posted are all excellent. The decoration your wife made sounds extremely tasteful, I wonder how she would feel about wearing one of the brocade belts with her evening gown ? I am sure, it will not be long before a photograph surfaces of one of the belts actually being worn. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 16 October , 2012 Share Posted 16 October , 2012 Frogsmile, The decoration your wife made sounds extremely tasteful, I wonder how she would feel about wearing one of the brocade belts with her evening gown ? Regards, LF LF I regret that I cannot ask her. She passed away some years ago. However, knowing her as I did I am sure that she would not have objected in the least. Although things have been gradually changing for some years now, few of the officers wives worked in the past and their day-to-day activities tended to revolve around the regiment. As such they were very much a part of the social and charitable fabric of the unit. There was even a formal and descriptive title for their interests. It was known as the 'distaff side'. This was almost two decades ago though and things continue to evolve and change to meet the priorities and aspirations of the present age and generation of young wives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 17 October , 2012 Share Posted 17 October , 2012 LF I regret that I cannot ask her. She passed away some years ago. However, knowing her as I did I am sure that she would not have objected in the least. Although things have been gradually changing for some years now, few of the officers wives worked in the past and their day-to-day activities tended to revolve around the regiment. As such they were very much a part of the social and charitable fabric of the unit. There was even a formal and descriptive title for their interests. It was known as the 'distaff side'. This was almost two decades ago though and things continue to evolve and change to meet the priorities and aspirations of the present age and generation of young wives. Frogsmile, I am sorry to hear that your wife passed away, and I am sure you have many great recollections of the Regimental functions you both attended. You made an interesting comment about today's generation, and I wonder if these belts are still produced for the current regiments, or is that a whole new Thread ? Either way, the excellent and very detailed photographs you posted have been facinating and so interesting to look at, and it would not surprise me, if other members like myself, were also seeing them for the very first time. Hopefully, much more will be added to this Thread, both in terms of photographs of more fine belts and some photographs of their being worn. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 17 October , 2012 Share Posted 17 October , 2012 You made an interesting comment about today's generation, and I wonder if these belts are still produced for the current regiments, or is that a whole new Thread ? Hopefully, much more will be added to this Thread, both in terms of photographs of more fine belts and some photographs of their being worn. Regards, LF The belts are not worn today and I think it likely that they were fashionable for only a relatively short period. Going by the badge's crown, I imagine that the period was around the 2nd Anglo/Boer War, which was a time of whipped up patriotism (often called 'jingoism'), when such overt displays of regimental pride and display might have been populist. Sadly I think that photos of the belts in wear will be hard to come by, although I will be surprised if there are none at all. The problem will be that the tradition of having a photographer to record these events is a relatively recent one. At the time of GVR and GVIR 'guest nights' and 'ladies nights' were considered a very private affair and it would have been considered vulgar and unseemly to have a commercial photographer present. The best possibility will be if there was an enthusiastic and pioneering photographer among the officers attending, but even then he would have required the commanding officers permission and that would have been hard to obtain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 17 October , 2012 Share Posted 17 October , 2012 The belts are not worn today and I think it likely that they were fashionable for only a relatively short period. Sadly I think that photos of the belts in wear will be hard to come by, although I will be surprised if there are none at all. Frogsmile, Thank you for the information. With all those superb examples of the belt being posted, I am sure OP west coast will agree that this Thread has been a great success, with or without any photographs of the belt being worn showing up. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west coast Posted 18 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 18 October , 2012 thank you all very much for an excellent and very informative thread. although the belts are apparantly not regimental issue , they do seem to have a historical value in military collectability terms. i must say the photos are terrific to view. maybe some more information will come to light. thank you all again. west coast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 November , 2012 Share Posted 22 November , 2012 Frogsmile, Thank you for the information. With all those superb examples of the belt being posted, I am sure OP west coast will agree that this Thread has been a great success, with or without any photographs of the belt being worn showing up. Regards, LF As well as yet another version (Wiltshire Regt - only half the buckle is shown), I have come across a variant of the belt and buckle worn by a sergeant's wife for a mess function. Interestingly she has used the belt as a means of securing a pendant watch, rather like a man uses his waistcoat for a pocket watch. The photo, showing the belt and buckle actually in use, must be exceedingly rare, as it is clear that the buckles were only in fashion for a relatively short period.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 4 December , 2012 Share Posted 4 December , 2012 I managed to get this photograph of the two ladies belts in the Suffolk Regiment Museum last week... . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 December , 2012 Share Posted 4 December , 2012 I managed to get this photograph of the two ladies belts in the Suffolk Regiment Museum last week... . Great stuff and especially interesting that one has Shamrock lace and yet a Suffolks badge, and the other the more expected oak leaf lace and badge as would seem natural. Methinks a lady was showing her origins there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 4 December , 2012 Share Posted 4 December , 2012 "especially interesting that one has Shamrock lace and yet a Suffolks badge" Yes, it certainly shows that they were fashion items and not regimental. Pre-Great War 2/Suffolk were stationed at Curragh Camp. I have always thought that this one was probably bought for a local lady that a 2/Suffolk Officer had taken a shine to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 4 December , 2012 Share Posted 4 December , 2012 Does the lower belt on the photograph have Thistles not Oak leaves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 4 December , 2012 Share Posted 4 December , 2012 Does the lower belt on the photograph have Thistles not Oak leaves? It looks like Thistles to me also. So, why Shamrock and Thistle lace on Suffolk Regiment ladies belts? Would we not expect Rose Lace to be associated with the Suffolk Regt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 4 December , 2012 Share Posted 4 December , 2012 As well as yet another version (Wiltshire Regt - only half the buckle is shown), I have come across a variant of the belt and buckle worn by a sergeant's wife for a mess function. Interestingly she has used the belt as a means of securing a pendant watch, rather like a man uses his waistcoat for a pocket watch. The photo, showing the belt and buckle actually in use, must be exceedingly rare, as it is clear that the buckles were only in fashion for a relatively short period.. Great photograph, It was only a matter of time before such a photograph was found. Regards, LF I managed to get this photograph of the two ladies belts in the Suffolk Regiment Museum last week... Two more excellent examples. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 4 December , 2012 Share Posted 4 December , 2012 Great stuff and especially interesting that one has Shamrock lace and yet a Suffolks badge, and the other the more expected oak leaf lace and badge as would seem natural. Methinks a lady was showing her origins there. Looking as the various examples, do you think the belt lace was available with the lace pattern being a rose for England, a thistle for Scotland, a shamrock for Ireland, and presumably a leek or daffodile for Wales ? With this being either based on the origin/location of the regiment or the preference of the wearer. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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