west coast Posted 8 October , 2012 Share Posted 8 October , 2012 hi , can anyone give me any information on this dress belt, as far as i know its to the 5th inniskilling dragoon guards, but i don`t know for sure. and also what era would it be. cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 8 October , 2012 Share Posted 8 October , 2012 Possibly 5th (Princess Charlotte of Wales's) Dragoon Guards, This regiment amalgamated with the 6th Dragoons (Inniskliings) to form the 5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards in 1922. The White Horse of Hanover tended to be used by the former, with an entwined VDG or the Inniskilling's Enniskillen castle design for the latter. That said I'm not an expert so happy to be proved wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west coast Posted 8 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2012 thank you for that steve, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 8 October , 2012 Share Posted 8 October , 2012 I just realised that there's a shamrock device in the belt. No idea off-hand if the 5th DG wore that, so it might be a clue to post-amalgamation timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west coast Posted 8 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2012 can i ask, could it be anything other than an officers dress belt, the reason i ask is, i have just bought this on line , and the seller has posted me [before he invoices me] that someone sugjested to him it may be a ladies levee belt . the width of the belt is 4.5cm. mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 8 October , 2012 Share Posted 8 October , 2012 I can't see it being a lady's belt: I don't know that much about dress uniform, I'm afraid. What waist size would it fit? At the latest, with the crown it has I'd say it has to be mid-50's. Depending on whether it's 5th DG or 5th R Inniskilling DG it is post-1902 or post-1922, and as far as I know, any female soldier wouldn't have worn regimental dress (except WRAC) before the 1990's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 8 October , 2012 Share Posted 8 October , 2012 west coast, As Steven has said, your belt has the badge of the 5th Dragoon Guards ( Princess Charlotte of Wales's ), it shows their motto " Vestigia Nulla Restorsum " ( We do not retreat ). Here is some information on the 5th Dragoon Guards from the National Army Museum, along with their badge :- " The regiment returned to the British establishment in 1788 and five years later deployed to the Low Countries and Germany on the outbreak of the French Revolutionary Wars. In 1804 the regiment was named after Princess Charlotte, only child of the future George IV. In 1811 it deployed to the Peninsula, where it captured the drum major's staff of the French 66th Line Infantry Regiment and fought at Salamanca and Vittoria. Yet from 1814 to 1893 the regiment remained in England, with the sole exception of the Crimea. The regiment had several noteworthy colonels. One was Princess Charlotte's widowed husband Leopold, from 1816 until he was made the first king of Belgium in 1831. His grandson Albert II became the regiment's colonel-in-chief in 1915. Another was Sir James Yorke Scarlett, who went on to command the charge of the Heavy Brigade at Balaklava, in which the 5th Dragoon Guards took part. Yet another was Robert Baden-Powell, future founder of the Scout Movement. He took command of the regiment in India in 1897 during its first posting there and remained its colonel until he was sent to South Africa in 1899. The training he gave the unit proved invaluable when it too was posted to the Boer War, in which it formed part of the force besieged in Ladysmith. One of the regiment's officers in South Africa, George Kirkpatrick Ansell, later rose to command it, but he was killed on the Western Front on 1 September 1914. The regiment remained on that front throughout the First World War, serving as dismounted troops for all but a few weeks at the start and end of the conflict. It spent the post-war period in Palestine, where in 1922 it merged with the 6th Dragoons to form the 5th/6th Dragoons. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 8 October , 2012 Share Posted 8 October , 2012 can i ask, could it be anything other than an officers dress belt, the reason i ask is, i have just bought this on line , and the seller has posted me [before he invoices me] that someone sugjested to him it may be a ladies levee belt . the width of the belt is 4.5cm. mike. Mike, I have looked at several photographs of 5th DG officers wearing dress belts, and they appear to be the brocade belt with the single block buckle. Your belt has a double buckle type similar to those seen on nursing/matron's uniform belts. I shall continue to look for examples. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 8 October , 2012 Share Posted 8 October , 2012 Mike, Here is a photograph captioned :- Lieutenant-Colonel Robert Baden-Powell Commanding Officer 5th Dragoon Guards India, 1897 He is wearing a brocade dress belt, it is not possible to make out the insignia on the belt buckle, and I assume it to be 5th Dragoon Guards ( Princess Charlotte of Wales's ) as per the caption ? However, photo captions are not always correct. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 9 October , 2012 Share Posted 9 October , 2012 Mike, In trying to date your belt, we must look at the various changes this regiment has undergone since 1804, which seems to be as follows :- 1804 - 5th ( Princess Charlotte of Wales's ) Dragoon Guards. 1920 - became - 5th Dragoon Guards ( Princess Charlotte of Wales's ) 1922 - amalgamated with the Inniskillings ( 6th Dragoons ) to become 5th/6th Dragoons. 1923 - became the 5th Inniskillings Dragoon Guards. 1935 - became the 5th Royal Inniskillings Dragoon Guards. 1992 - became the Royal Dragoon Guards. Your belt buckle has the badge of either the 5th ( Princess Charlotte of Wales's ) Dragoon Guards or 5th Dragoon Guards ( Princess Charlotte of Wales's ) as both regimental badges appear to have been the same, and whilst the badge of both regiments was the same, the ' Kings Crown ' on your belt badge is that of King George V, rather than that of King Edward VII. The earlier ' King's Crown ' of King Edward VII, was a different design to the ' King's Crown ' of King George V. The King's Crown for King George V, dates from 1911, so potentially, your belt could date from as early as 1911, and as late as 1922. Following the name change to 5th Inniskilling Dragoon Guards in 1923, the badge changed ( see attached ). Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 9 October , 2012 Share Posted 9 October , 2012 Mike, Update - I just spoke with Capt ( Retd ) W.A. Henshall of the Regimental Museum of the Royal Dragoon Guards at York, and he confirmed that your belt is a dress belt for a cavalry officer in the 5th Dragoon Guards ( Princess Charlotte of Wales's ) regiment, and that he has several other examples in the museum. This pattern of lace dress belt was used by other Dragoon Regiments, with the buckle badges changing according to the regiment, also the motiff woven into the lace also changes according to the regiment, in the case of your belt, the woven motiff is a shamrock, for other Dragoon regiments it would be different. Anyway, congratulations on owning a fine 5th Dragoon Guards ( Princess Charlotte of Wales's ) cavalry officers dress belt, dated 1911 - 1922. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrydon Posted 9 October , 2012 Share Posted 9 October , 2012 Looks like a ladies belt to me. P.B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 9 October , 2012 Share Posted 9 October , 2012 can i ask, could it be anything other than an officers dress belt, the reason i ask is, i have just bought this on line , and the seller has posted me [before he invoices me] that someone sugjested to him it may be a ladies levee belt . the width of the belt is 4.5cm. mike. Wasn't this listed with a large photo album ? If so the answer may lie somewhere in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 9 October , 2012 Share Posted 9 October , 2012 Looks like a ladies belt to me. P.B. Yes, I thought it may be so, however the Curator ( a retired Captain ) of the DG Museum confirmed it as being a DG cavalry officer's dress belt, and he has other examples in the Museum, so he should know. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west coast Posted 10 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 10 October , 2012 thank you all for your input, the belt does seem to be quite narrow waisted , about 26 inches. [could it have been shortened for some reason ?] even if it was for a woman ,it seems rather slim fitting. would it have been for a very young and slim officer starting off army life?. thanks again, mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 10 October , 2012 Share Posted 10 October , 2012 thank you all for your input, the belt does seem to be quite narrow waisted , about 26 inches. [could it have been shortened for some reason ?] even if it was for a woman ,it seems rather slim fitting. would it have been for a very young and slim officer starting off army life?. thanks again, mike. Mike, Capt. Henshall confirmed it is not a woman's belt, and is definitely a 5th Dragoon Guards ( Princess Charlotte of Wales's ) cavalry officers dress belt, and he has other examples in the Museum. Also, remember that 100 + years ago, body frames in general were smaller than those of today, and I notice that from the various WW1 uniforms in my Collection, they are sized much smaller, as compared with today's average body frame size. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west coast Posted 10 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 10 October , 2012 thank you lancs for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 10 October , 2012 Share Posted 10 October , 2012 thank you lancs for your help. My pleasure, you have an extremely fine example. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 11 October , 2012 Share Posted 11 October , 2012 There are numerous examples of this type of belt (always gold lace and with a rather feminine looking double buckle) for a variety of regiments listed as for wear by officers ladies for dress balls and such like. I would be interested to know the truth of the matter. There seem to be examples for diverse units other than cavalry, including the Royal Marines and Royal Artillery. They seem to have been made using regimental lace (available from the regiment's tailor) and with a common double buckle inset with one or other item of the relevant regiment's insignia. I enclose an image of the 5th DGs Mess Dress Collar Badges as an example.http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/album.php?albumid=1684&pictureid=74895 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrydon Posted 12 October , 2012 Share Posted 12 October , 2012 Bosleys the Military Auctioneers have had a number of belts of this type over the years and they have always described them as ladies belts. Pictured is an example of another belt described as a Volunteer Officers Ladies waist belt clasp from a book on Cheshire Rifle Volunteer insignia. P.B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 12 October , 2012 Share Posted 12 October , 2012 George Kidner seems to specialise in them as a collectors item. Here are a few examples. One should not assume that individuals who are paid to work in museums always know what they are talking about. I have met quite a few who are lazy with their research, especially if the query lies outside their particular interest, but they will rarely admit that they 'do not know' the answer. This does not apply to all of course and there are many who are excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 12 October , 2012 Share Posted 12 October , 2012 And here are a few more for comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 12 October , 2012 Share Posted 12 October , 2012 Frogsmile, The excellent examples in your post #21, particularly the bottom 2, what does George Kidner say they are ? Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 12 October , 2012 Share Posted 12 October , 2012 Frogsmile, The excellent examples in your post #21, particularly the bottom 2, what does George Kidner say they are ? Regards, LF Frogsmile, The excellent examples in your post #21, particularly the bottom 2, what does George Kidner say they are ? Regards, LF From what I can gather he says they are belts worn by officers ladies and adorned long frocks in a rather faddish way for a limited period of time. Those that I think you are referring to appear to be for the Royal Artillery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 12 October , 2012 Share Posted 12 October , 2012 From what I can gather he says they are belts worn by officers ladies and adorned long frocks in a rather faddish way for a limited period of time. Those that I think you are referring to appear to be for the Royal Artillery. The top example looks like that of a nurse. The lower 2 ? I shall contact Capt. Henshall again, just to see if he had any luck finding a photograph of what he calls the ' cavalry officers dress belt ' in wear ', it will be interesting to see if he has such a photograph ? The only one I could find, was that in my post # 9, which is the typical military brocade dress belt, or perhaps someone has a photograph of an officer's lady wearing such a belt, that would be helpful. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now