More Scots

[Muerrisch]

Frogsmile has these notes I drew up a year ago, but the membership might also like sight.

Note that "staff" sergeants were, in the least prestigious appointments, a movable feast.

I doubt if our man is the drum-sergeant, if only because his chevrons are 3 bar, and upper arm.

The other thought is that in other than regular army units there was a great deal of laissez faire with uniform [not to say a degree in the regulars, too!]

Staff Sergeants of Line Infantry 1910.

At last an official definition!

Regs Equipment Army, Infantry, 1910.

Please note that whereas the infantry had no RANK of staff-sergeant, it had a category for purposes of accoutrements and quality of some clothing.

Swords, staff-sgts were provided for:

Sergeant-majors, bandmasters, QM sergeants, Orderly Room [OR] sergeants, sgt drummers, sgt buglers, sgt cooks, C/Sgt Instr Musk, band sgt*, sgt master tailor*, sgt master shoemaker* all armed and accoutred as staff sgts.

* these three included in establishment of sgts [ie not listed under above appointments in Establishments]

Slightly surprised by inclusion of Cook and exclusion of Pioneer in swords list. Sgt Pipers not armed with staff sword of course.

Comparing the above with the following Establishments, my nearest relevant matches by date:

1906 Field Service India:

Established appointments listed are the same as 'with swords' above but additionally armourer staff-sgt Corps of Armourers, sgt pioneer, OR Clerk [in addition to OR sgt], and of course C-Sgts. And excluding band sgt.

1905 Home WE

As India above but Cook, transport, signalling, shoemaker are all in list of named appointments.

1907 ditto

As above but no OR sgt.

1914 ditto

As above.

Finally, comparison with named office-holders in battalion SNCO group photos.

1902 Cheshires Quetta those wearing staff caps [cannot see all the swords] in summer KD are

Sgt Major, Bandmaster, sgt drummer, band sgt, qmsgt, armourer sgt.

Those posts named without staff cap are

Pioneer sgt, OR sgt, is all.

c. 1904 2nd RWF India: posts not named but as far as I can tell:

Sgt Maj, Bandmaster, QMS, QMS [as ORQMS], and six irritating others where appointment badges not visible.

[FROGSMILE]

On 21/08/2012 at 17:05, GRUMPY said:

Frogsmile has these notes I drew up a year ago, but the membership might also like sight.

Note that "staff" sergeants were, in the least prestigious appointments, a movable feast.

I doubt if our man is the drum-sergeant, if only because his chevrons are 3 bar, and upper arm.

The other thought is that in other than regular army units there was a great deal of laissez faire with uniform [not to say a degree in the regulars, too!]

Staff Sergeants of Line Infantry 1910.

At last an official definition!

Regs Equipment Army, Infantry, 1910.

Please note that whereas the infantry had no RANK of staff-sergeant, it had a category for purposes of accoutrements and quality of some clothing.

Swords, staff-sgts were provided for:

Sergeant-majors, bandmasters, QM sergeants, Orderly Room [OR] sergeants, sgt drummers, sgt buglers, sgt cooks, C/Sgt Instr Musk, band sgt*, sgt master tailor*, sgt master shoemaker* all armed and accoutred as staff sgts.

* these three included in establishment of sgts [ie not listed under above appointments in Establishments]

Slightly surprised by inclusion of Cook and exclusion of Pioneer in swords list. Sgt Pipers not armed with staff sword of course.

Comparing the above with the following Establishments, my nearest relevant matches by date:

1906 Field Service India:

Established appointments listed are the same as 'with swords' above but additionally armourer staff-sgt Corps of Armourers, sgt pioneer, OR Clerk [in addition to OR sgt], and of course C-Sgts. And excluding band sgt.

1905 Home WE

As India above but Cook, transport, signalling, shoemaker are all in list of named appointments.

1907 ditto

As above but no OR sgt.

1914 ditto

As above.

Finally, comparison with named office-holders in battalion SNCO group photos.

1902 Cheshires Quetta those wearing staff caps [cannot see all the swords] in summer KD are

Sgt Major, Bandmaster, sgt drummer, band sgt, qmsgt, armourer sgt.

Those posts named without staff cap are

Pioneer sgt, OR sgt, is all.

c. 1904 2nd RWF India: posts not named but as far as I can tell:

Sgt Maj, Bandmaster, QMS, QMS [as ORQMS], and six irritating others where appointment badges not visible.

Yes I agree that the staff sergeant role was something of a 'movable feast'. However, with regard to the badge of rank some of my sources have it that the plain 3 chevrons, albeit with drum badge over, were worn for a number of years until the title of drum major was formally returned. I am not clear if that was the case with all regiments, but I remember that Simkin shows several prints in that configuration, notwithstanding that he is known to have made a number of errors in his later work.

Edited 4 February by FROGSMILE

[pierssc]

I'm afraid that after this time I am no nearer to "placing" this photograph. If anything it is quite the opposite.

The photograph appears to show a group of soldiers, with an officer and an NCO, wearing Edinburgh University OTC badges.

I thought I could identify SPG, a great uncle by marriage, among the soldiers (the album it came from belonged to his wife-to-be). But if the NCO has a wound stripe, as some think (including me), it dates the photo to some time after June 1916. SPG had been commissioned in the Gordons in late August 1915, so he's not likely to be dressed up as a private soldier nine months later is he? All the same, I have a dated photo showing SPG outside his parents' house dated September 1915, so I know he went back to Scotland from France, where he'd been in the 9th Royal Scots.

What I HAVE discovered among my grandfather's papers is a certificate that

"(Temporary) Second Lieutenant J. Kerr 11th Battn Gordon Highlanders has attended a class of instruction in the Administrative and Field Duties of a Platoon Commander, held under the supervision of Officers Training Corps, Edinburgh University, from the 14/9/1915 to the 20/10/1915 and that his progress has been satisfactory Signed John E Mackenzie, Major, Commandant, School of Instruction, Edinburgh University. Dated Edinburgh, 26th October 1915"

(Major Mackenzie was Reader in Chemistry at the University. After the war, he edited the Roll of Honour. )

OK, so it confirms that EUOTC was doing more than training University students in WW1. JK had joined the Territorials in August 1914 and served in Scotland as a Gunner. It is interesting that he was commissioned on 13th September 1915 and then sent off to do the course.

The photo was in some albums which came from JK's sister, who married SPG after the war. This isn't JK's Course, because (a) I don't recognise him and ( b ) the photo can be more or less dated to post-June 1916 and by that time JK was learning to fly at Castle Bromwich. (She stuck far more pictures of her young man in the albums than of her brother, so it is more likely to be SPG in the photo).

It now strikes me that maybe it is the officer who is the connection. JK had a cousin in the 1/5 Royal Scots Fusiliers, but he died in Egypt in early September 1916, having been commissioned in October 1914, so it makes the timing quite tight but not impossible for him to have been there. The officer looks a bit like him as identified on another photo, but I'm not sure. I haven't researched him yet, but his War Office file is extant, so a trip to Kew beckons....

[Guest]

I'm afraid that after this time I am no nearer to "placing" this photograph. If anything it is quite the opposite.

The photograph appears to show a group of soldiers, with an officer and an NCO, wearing Edinburgh University OTC badges..

Are you 100 % sure it is Edinburgh University OTC? While I would agree the cap-badge looks similar*, I simply ask because some of the young men look too young for university. I wonder if they might be a from a college or academy (Junior OTC) or even School Cadets. The Army list has a section on the OTCs - Senior and Junior - including a number of Scottish educational institutions such as

Edinburgh Academy,

Fettes College,

Dollar Institution,

George Heriot's School,

George Watson Boys College,

Glasgow Academy

Glasgow High School,

Glenalmond College,

Hill Head High School,

Kelvinside Academy,

Kirkaldy High School,

Loretto School,

Merchison Castle School,

Which might be worth exploring, even if only to eliminate. I don't have any particular strong feel for this but thought it worth flagging the number of potential alternatives. Most (all?) do not appear to have had specific Scottish regimental associations or affiliations. Just a thought. MG

* The first Edinburgh University OTC cap badge (1908) was much smaller than the second (1953) with a much smaller lower scroll.

[Ron Abbott]

Add to that Daniel Stewart's College and the Royal High School (although not sure whether the latter had an OTC at that time).

Some observations.

They are wearing open neck collars. Is that significant? I recall reading somewhere before a comment about school OTCs wearing open collars due to some worry over health issues. Sod's law, I now can't locate the thread. .

Other than the 'instructors' they are all wearing kilts. If university OTC would this be normal? Did Edinburgh University OTC or St Andrews University OTC wear kilts? They're presumably not pipers based on the glengarries and there are too many of them to be a drum corps.

No rank badges or other insignia implying prior service; other than the 'instructors'.

Could the cuff 'lace' or whatever it is on the instructors sleeve signify some sort of 'Senior Under Officer' or 'Junior Under Officer' position. I recall when I was in the Edinburgh and the Aberdeen OTC, the SUO and JUOs had a similar sort of thing on their cuffs. Not identical but they did have something like that.

It certainly does look like the old Edinburgh OTC / St Andrews University OTC cap badges, but perhaps one or other of the schools had a similar one?

Edit - Maybe this is where I saw mention of open collars previously:-

http://www.scotlandswar.ed.ac.uk/sites/default/files/pdf_Schoolboys_Khaki.pdf

[pierssc]

Martin, no I'm not sure about it being Edinburgh University OTC at all. It was just that their badge looked the right sort of shape, as far as one can tell from a rather blurry picture. When you say the EUOTC 1908 version was "smaller" than it later became, how big was it?

Edinburgh is likely because JK and SPG both came from there so pictures in family albums tend to have an Edinburgh connection. They had also both attended George Watson's, which seems to have had a kilted OTC, but both had left school before the war - JK was born in 1896 and SPG in 1892. This picture was probably taken in wartime, and probably no earlier than mid-1916 IF that is a wound stripe the NCO has on his sleeve, and not a scratch on the photo. It doesn't strike me that most of them are "too young". Yes some of them are young, but I don't think they're schoolboys. You should see the photos of my grandfather.... But the question led me to discover this booklet (there's a picture of the Watsonians badge on page 6) which is of some interest in terms of my other researches into both men, particularly the connection with the 9th Royal Scots, so thank you for prompting my search! I have certain reservations about how far to rely on some of the information in it but in many respects it's useful, particularly with regard to SPG, whose Army papers don't appear to have survived (or may still be restricted, as he was in the army in WW2 - and apparently commanded Edinburgh University OTC for a time!). My original premise was SPG was in the photo, and that it showed him during officer training, having been a Private in the Royal Scots. But the dates don't tie in if that's a wound stripe. If it isn't a wound stripe, it could be earlier.

Looking at this in the context of other photos, in addition to the main group one, there is also a picture of the NCO, and of the officer (who has two pips on his cuff - more apparent in another photo). My latest line of enquiry is that maybe it is the officer and/or NCO who were the reason why these photos were kept. If the officer is JMK, a cousin, then his WO file survives and maybe it holds an answer, as may the war diary of the 1/5 RSF, so I'll have to track them down. At this point I know very little about JMK's military service - he became an officer in October 1915 and may have served at Gallipoli, which would have probably given him time to be sent home afterwards, do some training, and go out again to Egypt in time to drown at Port Said in September 1916. With a bit of luck the 1/5 RSF war diary may tell us when he was with them. One other pointer is that in a photo I haven't posted here, the officer MIGHT have grenade badges on his collar, which I think would be consistent with 1/5 RSF - but did they wear tartan trews? And what about the EUOTC badge (if that is what it is) on his bonnet? I'm sure the answer lurks somewhere on the GWF...

Ron - thanks for your thoughts. The Loretto open collar (from the photo on your link) looks rather like they're wearing cravats. I think the open collars some (not all) of them have here is because they have just opened them for comfort, and the officer is so relaxed he has taken off his Sam Browne and completely unbuttoned his jacket! The significance I see in the open jackets is that despite the differences in rank, these people are relaxed and comfortable in each other's company to the extent of not just presenting a (temporarily) sloppy military appearance but in their physical proximity to each other. The one who seems least comfortable is the NCO. There has been a bit of discussion earlier on this thread about what exactly the cuff braiding might signify, and I don't think we reached a definite conclusion except that he was probably a staff or some other kind of super-sergeant (my terminology!). His walking stick (on which he leans in both photos) and a possible wound stripe (just about visible in the group photo) also led us to wonder whether he was a wounded veteran who was now involved in training - not fit for General Service but fit for Home Service. He also seems a little older. Whatever his precise rank I think he's one of the instructors rather than a trainee. It would appear from this WFA article (p6) that the Edinburgh University OTC were kilted (at least in 1913) whereas Glasgow and St Andrews weren't - which doesn't explain why the NCO isn't kilted but as someone said earlier there may have been a bit of laissez faire as to uniform regulations in some units and he may have preferred to keep his trousers!

I'm very grateful for both contributions as it all helps to prompt lines of enquiry which otherwise would not have occurred to me.

Piers

[Ron Abbott]

One other thing, they're wearing long puttees not spats. 1915 onwards?

Yes, not only George Watsons College but Daniel Stewarts College was also specifically connected to the 9th (Highlander) Bn Royal Scots.

That would certainly add to the thing about them being kilted.

By the way, my eyesight isn't great but I also think that could be a wound stripe.....or a crease due something below it.....the top of an Austrian knot.........read on.

The age of the guys with the 'instructors', their general appearance, their lack of rank badges or other insignia (other than the very OTC-like badges on the epaulettes) and the cap badge (what can be made of it) still makes me think, on the balance of probablity that it is either a university OTC (Edinburgh) or an Edinburgh based school junior OTC.....but more likely Edinburgh UOTC..

It's not the old cap badge of Aberdeen UOTC or Glasgow. Looks far more like Edinburgh or perhaps St Andrews.

With regard to the question re. 1/5 RSF, yes he could be wearing trews depending on uniform. Why don't you post the photo?

By the way, looking at the individual photo of the sergeant again, I can see why one might think it is crossed cutlasses and also why it might appear to be connected to the cuff/part of the cuff with the wound strip above.

But try looking again.........right below the 'wound stripe' type vertical bar, is that another faint circle?

If so, the two 'sword hilts' to the side with another circle above still makes me think it may be an 'Austrian Knot'.......of the sort worn by Junior Under Officers in the OTCs.

OK that's not explained well to put it mildly!

Here is a photo from the mid-1980s of a good friend of mine in the Aberdeen UOTC......the one of the left with the full hair sporran. He is wearing JUO insignia on his sleeve with 'Austrian knot'.....but did the OTCs have that back then....and would a sergeant be wearing it?

https://theoldboars.smugmug.com/Images/20th-Century/1980-1989/i-nw6hTcs

By the way would that be the same Samuel Percy Gillespie that is mentioned in the Aberdeen Weekly Journal (17th Jan 1919) and Dundee Courier (14th Jan 1919) as being T/Lieut. Samuel Percy Gillespie of the 1st Bn. Gordons who was awarded the Military Cross? I also note that he was given an 'emergency commission' as a Lieutenant on 1st July 1940 with the Gordon Highlanders....or was that perhaps a son?

There is also mention of him having been wounded by shrapnel in the right arm in the Edinburgh Evening News (9th Oct 1917) and that he had previously been 'severely wounded'. Son of George Gillespie of Burton Lodge, Lygon Rd, Edinburgh.

In fact, the Aberdeen Journal of 13th Oct 1915 reports him as having been wounded (no further details) whilst with the 1st Bn. Gordon Highlanders.

Mention is also made in the Aberdeen Journal of 5th Dec1919 of him being Capt. Samuel Gillespie and that he was awarded the Military Cross alongside his brother, Lieut. George Gillespie of the Northamptonshire Yeomanry.

[pierssc]

Oh, I totally agree about the "Austrian knot" being there - there was a bit of discussion about it round about post #46! It undoubtedly has some significance - but unlike your friends, this chap has sergeant's stripes as well, and sword hangers which, I am assured, would make him a staff sergeant were it not for the fact that he should also have a crown with the stripes! The Austrian knot design doesn't seem to be unusual, but it's significance seems to vary depending on the context. So at present let's just say that he seems to be a sergeant+ !

Re the photos of the officer, why not? The links are to my Flickr site.

This is the photo of the officer from the group photo (standing, I think, by the same cairn). This version has been tweaked to try to pull out more detail.

This is JMK, 1/5 Royal Scots Fusiliers with the ID on the back (according to CWGC, DoD was actually 3rd September.

This is a photo of JMK in about 1912, at the age of about 21, looking hardly recognisable to his military persona.

The writing is I think my grandfather's, so THAT ID should be reliable.

A flaw in my possible identification is that JMK, according to his tombstone, remained a 2nd Lieutenant....

[Ron Abbott]

Oh, I totally agree about the "Austrian knot" being there - there was a bit of discussion about it round about post #46! It undoubtedly has some significance - but unlike your friends, this chap has sergeant's stripes as well, and sword hangers which, I am assured, would make him a staff sergeant were it not for the fact that he should also have a crown with the stripes! The Austrian knot design doesn't seem to be unusual, but it's significance seems to vary depending on the context. So at present let's just say that he seems to be a sergeant+ !

Re the photos of the officer, why not? The links are to my Flickr site.

This is the photo of the officer from the group photo (standing, I think, by the same cairn). This version has been tweaked to try to pull out more detail.

This is JMK, 1/5 Royal Scots Fusiliers with the ID on the back (according to CWGC, DoD was actually 3rd September.

This is a photo of JMK in about 1912, at the age of about 21, looking hardly recognisable to his military persona.

The writing is I think my grandfather's, so THAT ID should be reliable.

A flaw in my possible identification is that JMK, according to his tombstone, remained a 2nd Lieutenant....

Yes, that's RSF.....not just the collar badges but the cap badge as well.

[pierssc]

Which picture? The studio portraits are ID'd. Isn't it a different cap badge in the group photo?

[pierssc]

Ron, I didn't spot the bit in your post #57 about Samuel Percy Gillespie. Yes, him in all cases. I don't have access to Scots newspapers (unless there's a free site I don't know) so hadn't seen these. He started as a Private in the 9th Royal Scots, became an officer in the 1st Gordons, was wounded in the head about 3 weeks later at Hooge on his 25th birthday, joined the RFC but got washed out when he blacked out due to the head wound and crashed before he got his "wings" (according to family lore), back to the Gordons, was wounded again (I didn't know quite when/where), back to the Gordons in 1918, got the MC, and apparently rode at the head of A Company into Germany with the army of occupation. Also served in WW2 - that reference will be him. Had three brothers, one killed in RAF, both the others got the MC too. Thank you for those, it fills in some more gaps.

[Guest]

The 2 Lt J M Kerr, Royal Scots Fusiliers who drowned in Sep 1916 is shown in the 1914-15 Medal Roll as disembarking in France in October 1915. I cant find his MIC on Ancestry although there is a MIC for a 2 Lt John Murdock Kerr (no disembarkation date) who also died in 1916. If both were J M Kerr there is the possibility of an error with disembarkations. To add to the confusion the History has a J M Kerr 'falling' in late 1915 on the Western Front.

Assuming the disembarkation in France is not an error and we have the right J M Kerr, given the timeline I suspect it highly unlikely that he served at Gallipoli. The window of opportunty was rather small - Gallipoli ended in early Jan 1916 for the RSF -and the western Front after Loos was still rather short of Officers. A trawl of the 1/5th Bn RSF Diaries at Gallipoli does not show his name recorded - although the diary is poor by the standards of the day and no nominal roll was recorded. Similarly Officer casualties were not always named as they should have been. The diary from Nov 1915 onward improves, with named Officers but again he is not mentioned.

Are you certain he served at Gallipoli? Or is this an assumption based on him being 1/5th Bn and the 1/5th Bn having served there? It is worth noting that the May 1915 Army List has him in 2/5th Bn RSF which was UK based. Note the 1/4th Bn and 1/5th Bn sailed for the Dardanelles in the same month - on 21st May 1915, Lemnos (Dardanelles) on 29th May and Gallipoli on 6th Jun 1915 where they stayed (with short breaks) until Jan 1916. There seems to be no paper trail linking J M Kerr to Gallipoli.

If J M Kerr Royal Scots Fusiliers did serve in France in Oct 1915, the RSF possibilities are very limited: 1st and 2nd Regular Bns and 6th, 7th and 8th Service Bns (briefly)...but begs the question what a TF Officer was doing serving with Regulars or Kitchener Battalions. Possible, but less common. One alternative is that he was posted to a TF battalion of a different regiment as a reinforcement (quite common in 1915) The haystack becomes larger in this scenario. MG

[pierssc]

Hi Martin

The MIC card exists - but I couldn't find it on Ancestry either, so it was a download from the NA. It says "KERR James Melrose R. Scs Fus TF 2/Lt. Victory Medal, 1915 Star, Decd 4.9.16, Theatre of War First served in: (1) Date of entry 22.10.15" There are some other cryptic notes which look like details of when the medals were issued.

I don't know what the (1) means but I'm quite prepared to believe it would be France. My speculation about Gallipoli was purely because (as far as I have been able to dig out by Googling) the 1/5 RSF were there. I have as yet virtually no concrete information about JMK.

Intriguingly, through, I turned up a history of the 1/5 KOSB here and on page 105 there is a reference to "Lieut J.M. Kerr, 5th RSF, discovered one small party of Turks who had destroyed the wire with gun-cotton, and were actually within our line. But he turned a machine gun upon them, and very few got away." Whether the same J.M. Kerr, I know not.

There are also a couple of photos titled simply "Salonika" in one of the albums I have. According to the Long Long Trail the 1/4 and 1/5 RSF May 1915 : "became 155th Brigade, 52nd (Lowland) Division. Sailed from Liverpool on 21 May 1915, going via Mudros to Gallipoli, where the battalion disembarked on 7 June 1915. Moved to France with the Division in April 1918."

Now Mudros isn't Salonika (though not far off), and clearly JMK wasn't with them in May 1915 if he didn't go to a theatre of war until October. I haven't really looked at the "Salonika" photos enough to see if I can recognise anyone. Apart from JMK, I have no idea if any other member of the family, or a friend, was in that part of the world. Perhaps his WO file may hold some clues

Reference: WO 374/39388 Description:

2/Lieutenant James Melrose KERR.

The Royal Scots Fusiliers.

Date: 1916-1919

I hope to be going to the NA in the next few weeks so can look him up then.

Thank you for looking at the 1/5 RSF War Diary, which was also on my list of things to look at - a pity there's so little there, because I was hoping there would be a nominal roll somewhere. Is his death (3rd or 4th September 1916, at Port Said) recorded or is that beyond the scope of the diaries you have access to?

I agree that it is possible that he may have served with another unit or units, but in the few references to him I've found, it is only the 5 RSF which is mentioned. The London Gazette of 13 October 1914 (p 8150) records his being commissioned on 17th September as a Second Lieutenant in "The fifth battalion" RSF (The Gazette of 23rd October says 12th September, but still 5 RSF). The photo I have is particular about it being the 1/5. His tombstone says 1/5. The MIC says RSF, TF. It's a big haystack if he wasn't with the 5th.

Of course if some kind soul with access to historic Scottish newspapers could do a search for his name.... maybe we might find an obituary.

Cheers

Piers

[Muerrisch]

The cuff lace was explained fully by me several pages above at #47.

I cannot believe that it is other, and that it signifies VF or TF.

[Guest]

Hi Martin

The MIC card exists - but I couldn't find it on Ancestry either, so it was a download from the NA. It says "KERR James Melrose R. Scs Fus TF 2/Lt. Victory Medal, 1915 Star, Decd 4.9.16, Theatre of War First served in: (1) Date of entry 22.10.15" There are some other cryptic notes which look like details of when the medals were issued. Some units went East via Marseilles, so a remote possibility is he landed in France, train to Marseilles and on to the East.

I don't know what the (1) means but I'm quite prepared to believe it would be France. 1 definitely means France. No question. The only caveat is if the Medal Roll made a mistake (MICs were copied from info on the rolls, so if there is a mistake it is on the roll). My speculation about Gallipoli was purely because (as far as I have been able to dig out by Googling) the 1/5 RSF were there. I have as yet virtually no concrete information about JMK. I think you might need to consider the possibility that he did not serve at Gallipoli. When 1/5th departed he was 2/5th in the UK. If he went to France in Oct, given the timeline I think it highly improbable he subsequently went to Gallipoli. It is possible but I think less likely. The diaries tended to be pretty good at marking the arrival/departure of Officers and even if his arrival was missed one might expect to see him mentioned. I checked 1/4th and 1/5th. Given the KOSB comments it is worth checking this too for Gallipoli.

Intriguingly, through, I turned up a history of the 1/5 KOSB here and on page 105 there is a reference to "Lieut J.M. Kerr, 5th RSF, discovered one small party of Turks who had destroyed the wire with gun-cotton, and were actually within our line. But he turned a machine gun upon them, and very few got away." Whether the same J.M. Kerr, I know not. This refers to operations in early Aug 1916 only a month before your subject's death. I don't have the relevant diaries but Romani is close to Port Said so this all fits well. Relevant 1/5th Bn RSF diary would be WO 95/4607.

There are also a couple of photos titled simply "Salonika" in one of the albums I have. According to the Long Long Trail the 1/4 and 1/5 RSF May 1915 : "became 155th Brigade, 52nd (Lowland) Division. Sailed from Liverpool on 21 May 1915, going via Mudros to Gallipoli, where the battalion disembarked on 7 June 1915. Moved to France with the Division in April 1918." These battalions did not serve in Salonika for sure. Ditto the 1/4th and 1/5th KOSB.

Now Mudros isn't Salonika (though not far off), and clearly JMK wasn't with them in May 1915 if he didn't go to a theatre of war until October. I haven't really looked at the "Salonika" photos enough to see if I can recognise anyone. Apart from JMK, I have no idea if any other member of the family, or a friend, was in that part of the world. Perhaps his WO file may hold some clues. Your best bet for sure.

Reference: WO 374/39388 Description:

2/Lieutenant James Melrose KERR.

The Royal Scots Fusiliers.

Date: 1916-1919

I hope to be going to the NA in the next few weeks so can look him up then.

Thank you for looking at the 1/5 RSF War Diary, which was also on my list of things to look at - a pity there's so little there, because I was hoping there would be a nominal roll somewhere. Is his death (3rd or 4th September 1916, at Port Said) recorded or is that beyond the scope of the diaries you have access to? One would need to know which unit he was serving in. Only Western Front and Gallipoli diaries have been digitised. I dont have any Egypt diaries for 1916. Separately - I have also checked from 22 Oct 15 through to end of Nov 1915 in the RSF battalions in F&F (regular and New Army) for any record of J M Kerr arriving and can not find him. A small mystery.

I agree that it is possible that he may have served with another unit or units, but in the few references to him I've found, it is only the 5 RSF which is mentioned. The only Scottish TF formation was in Gallipoli at the time (52nd Lowland Div). Any Scottish TF Officer going to France might, at a long shot, be heading as a reinforcement the odd Scottish TF battalion attached to Regular Divs so these diaries are worth checking for late Oct 1915. The London Gazette of 13 October 1914 (p 8150) records his being commissioned on 17th September as a Second Lieutenant in "The fifth battalion" RSF (The Gazette of 23rd October says 12th September, but still 5 RSF). The photo I have is particular about it being the 1/5. His tombstone says 1/5. The MIC says RSF, TF. It's a big haystack if he wasn't with the 5th. A man in the 5th Bn could be transferred between 1/5th and 2/5th. Often the reinforcements for 1/5th were coming from 2/5th in the early months.

Of course if some kind soul with access to historic Scottish newspapers could do a search for his name.... maybe we might find an obituary.

Cheers

Piers

Piers...my comments in blue.

[pierssc]

Thank you Martin, you've given me lots to think about.

[Guest]

Thank you Martin, you've given me lots to think about.

I think I might have solved on part.

The (1) for France is an potentially an error on the Medal Roll

I trawled the diary for names of other officers we know were at Gallipoli. All would have disembarked on 6.6.15. Of the thirty odd I can find, roughly half have (1) [meaning France] against their names, yet we know they were at Gallipoli. Put another way, it would be impossible for these men to be in France on 6.6.15 and appear in Gallipoli a few days later....so roughly 50% of the (1) entries for the Gallipoli men are definitely errors. This includes the men such as Capt Farquhar the Adjutant who has (1) net to his name for 6.6.15 yet appears in the diary - I suspect a lazy clerk is at the root of this...

As we know, Kerr was (1) but not 6.6.15, rather 22.10.15. While it still does not pin him to Gallipoli, I would argue given the mass of errors on the Medal Roll, there is at least a 50% chance it is wrong.

To provide some reassurance, I have transcribed the 1914 Officer's medal roll and a number of units have errors across their rolls, where for example a clerk simply applied the same disembarkation date for the whole regiment, regardless of when they disembarked. So we know these things can happen

I would take the (1) with a very large pinch of salt. The main reason is that I can't see why a TF RSF Officer would be sent to France when every first line RSF TF battalion was in Gallipoli. He may simply have been missed in the diary on his arrival. It will be interesting to see what his Service Record reveals.

I hope this helps. MG

[Guest]

This might help eliminate some institutions. .. Officers Training Corps: Records of Public Schools Officers and Other Members of Staff

Kerr does not appear against any of the Scottish Schools, so you can probably eliminate these. MG

[pierssc]

Thanks Martin, an interesting booklet. As you say, it relates to school OTCs. I'm thinking that we might be looking for an OTC training officers or potential officers who had some military training (in the ranks) already. My grandfather, having been a Gunner for a year, was commissioned and immediately sent to attend "a class of instruction in the Administrative and Field Duties of a Platoon Commander" lasting about 5 weeks and run by Edinburgh University OTC. So I know that Edinburgh University did that sort of thing, as I believe did the Inns of Court OTC, and doubtless numerous others.

[pierssc]

Ah ha! Full Circle: A History of the City of Edinburgh Universities' Officers Training Corps by George O Sutherland. Copy ordered!

[Fergus Currie]

I think this link might help clarify some things. https://libraryblogs.is.ed.ac.uk/untoldstories/2017/03/

I hate doing face to face matching since it is never 100% certain but Perhaps you might find a couple of matches for your original post.