More Scots

[Old Owl]

With some trepidation, as I don't know anything about wound stripes and where they should be worn, and I don't want to fall out with anyone as I'm the least well-informed one here, if he has braid on his cuffs ending in three loops (and I'm sure that's what it is, you can see it on the group photo too) he presumably could either place the stripe above or below the braid, but he wouldn't put the stripe over it, so it would be in the "wrong" place whatever he did. I think one might just be able to see a bit of the "stripe" on his sleeve - partly masked by someone's head.

I like your style Piers and I would tend to agree with you on this because you don't often see creases which are so straight and 'stiff'--particularly when all the other creases are like normal creases!! But of course I am happy to be proved wrong.

Robert

[tn.drummond]

I like your style Piers and I would tend to agree with you on this because you don't often see creases which are so straight and 'stiff'--particularly when all the other creases are like normal creases!! But of course I am happy to be proved wrong.

Robert

More than a good point Robert; it's just that I can't reference a wound stripe above a 'skill at arms' award. I agree crease seems very regular.

Suddery

[Old Owl]

More than a good point Robert; it's just that I can't reference a wound stripe above a 'skill at arms' award. I agree crease seems very regular.

Suddery

I think that the 'badge' below the 'possible' wound stripe is infact his sleeve braiding, which is topped by a knot--hope you see what I mean?

Robert

[pierssc]

Robert, re Watsonians - fantastic, thanks very much, that helps a lot. Darn, no mention of Edinburgh University, and he seems to have been working in a bank at the most likely time.

Unless.... if he joined up or tried to join up in 1914, might he have joined the local University OTC as an intermediate step or way in to the army? In which case, say this was late 1914, might it be possible that an NCO who had been wounded at Mons, say, and who had recovered but still needed to lean on a walking stick (and he does seem to be leaning on it in both photos), might have been seconded to an OTC to help with training? Just thinking aloud, I'll have to consult my Lynn Macdonald (don't have much on WW1) and do some Googling to find what they did with the rush of new recruits!

Suddery, thank you too and I have enjoyed the discussion and learnt a lot.

Ignoring the wound stripe/scratch in the photograph debate, for the moment, if the sergeant is wearing "crossed cutlesses", what badge IS it? And if it is a sleeve decoration, what sort of sergeant would he have to be to have it on his cuff? Apologies if this is veering off-topic for this particular forum, perhaps we should be discussing this under "Insignia"?

Piers

[pierssc]

By the way, re my OTC theory, the fact that EU OTC isn't mentioned in SPG's WWR entry (which he would have supplied) doesn't mean he wasn't in it. It seems he was also in the RFC for a time - in fact he played rugby for them in the 1916-17 season - and there are some photos of him with planes, but he doesn't seem to have stayed (maybe he was washed-out as a pilot), but that's not mentioned either.

[Old Owl]

Glad to help out.

I feel that we can discount the 'crossed cutlasses' as a dreadful red herring on my part--apologies!! The braiding is very similar to some I have seen before--not sure exactly where--we really need a uniform expert to see if this can be alloted to a Scots OTC--or should it be Scottish?? Anyhow you get my gist--I hope--Help!!

I am shutting up shop now!!

Robert

[pierssc]

According to A.G. Macdonell in "England their England" it's Scots or Scottish but not Scotch!

As to the wound stripe debate, it is all rather thrown into the air by my discovery that wound stripes were not instigated until July 1916. So if the photo is from 1914-15, it's not a wound stripe, and if it is a wound stripe, it's from July 1916-1918 and it's unlikely to be S.P. Gillespie playing as a private in the OTC as he was an officer in the Gordons by that time! http://www.1914-1918.net/woundstripe.html . Sigh!

[Steven Broomfield]

The badghes I referred to have been illustrated by skipman and gordon92.

I'm not saying it is a wound stripe, merely that it appears like one: it is too high, but that does look like some intricate braiding on the cuff, which would possibly shift the stripe higher, were it a wound stripe.

I guess that were it a wound stripe it would date the photo to war-time as the lack of medal ribbons on a wounded NCO would preclude post-war, and a wound stripe would preclude pre-war.

Where's Frogsmile when we need him?

[pierssc]

More than that, a wound stripe would preclude pre-July 1916!

[tn.drummond]

For what 'tis worth having changed glasses ( wish I was joking) I'm certain that the upper photo details the Sergeant wearing cuff lace and not crossed cutlass.

[bill24chev]

For what 'tis worth having changed glasses ( wish I was joking) I'm certain that the upper photo details the Sergeant wearing cuff lace and not crossed cutlass.

i mentioned the cuff braid in post 5 but don't know their significance, if any.

[tn.drummond]

i mentioned the cuff braid in post 5 but don't know their significance, if any.

There seems to be a little confusion about dates of various insignia and uniform etc but I'm also confused by the lace - I would only really expect to see it on a VTC jacket for this period unyet he seems to be wearing 1914 SD. I

Confused of Dorset

[john conley]

Hi all

I found this picture in my Grandfathers belongings.

He was definately in the 2/7th Royal Scots in Ireland and it is

thought he went to 9th or 13th Royal Scots from there on 30.3.1918.

Does the photo help in identifiying whether it was the 9th or 13th.

Regards John C

[dundeesown]

9th ( Highlanders ) ?

Gary

[gordon92]

Hi all

I found this picture in my Grandfathers belongings.

He was definately in the 2/7th Royal Scots in Ireland and it is

thought he went to 9th or 13th Royal Scots from there on 30.3.1918.

Does the photo help in identifiying whether it was the 9th or 13th.

Regards John C

9th ( Highlanders ) ?

Gary

The kilt would indicate 9th (Highlanders) Bn Royal Scots TF. Interestingly, there are no shoulder titles evident in the photo. The Service Bns either wore the shoulder titles of the regular Bns or, more usually, wore none at all. If the frame of the photo had only shown the torso from the waist up, I would have guessed the 13th (Service) Bn.

[Malcolm]

This was the University of Edinburgh Crest at the time in question. The OTC badge is the crest topped with a Crown and with a scroll underneath it all with Edinburgh University OTC

St Andrews badge was the same design except their crest was as below

Aye

Malcolm

[Old Owl]

Returning to the cuff braid, I have now located the photo where I remembered seeing this exact cuff lace. It is on a photo taken in 1908 of the Colour Sergeants of the 1st Bn Northamptonshire Regt taken in Poona(India).

Unfortunately I don't have the skill to post the photo on here, but I could email a copy if anyone was interested--we really need a uniform expert!!

Robert

[gordon92]

This was the University of Edinburgh Crest at the time in question. The OTC badge is the crest topped with a Crown and with a scroll underneath it all with Edinburgh University OTC

St Andrews badge was the same design except their crest was as below

Aye

Malcolm

Malcolm -- Would you be able to say when the Edinburgh University crest was changed?

[Malcolm]

Yes, It was replaced by the present round thingy in 1995 and they spent £60,000 on it while cutting my staff!!

See http://www.ed.ac.uk/polopoly_fs/1.16489!fileManager/university-of-edinburgh-logo-guide.pdf

But I'm retired now and don't give a ...........................

Aye

Malcolm

[john conley]

All

Thanks for your help.

I was lucky to find his name several times in the 7th Rifle Brigade diaries.

Then a relative found a letter from an officer addressed to Granddad while home wounded (first wound stripe

I guess)

Will now try 9th Royal Scots diaries from April 1918 on to see if these as detailed as the 7th Rifle Brigade

maybe find out what the second wound stripe for.

Thank you

Regards John C

[gordon92]

It does look like crossed cutlesses.... but I think it's cuff decoration, and it's on both arms. Here's a different crop.

Thought I would bring this thread back to life since there was not a satisfactory resolution on the cuff braid worn by the sergeant as seen in the image from post #20.

I found this notation in Grierson's Records of the Scottish Volunteer Force 1859-1908 on page 182 regarding uniform of The Queen's Rifle Volunteer Brigade of the Royal Scots:

"In the years 1900-01 a drab felt hat was worn with the dark grey uniform, but in 1902 this was prohibited, and

a drab service dress with light green Austrian knot

and trouser piping was authorised for marching and drill order......"

The QRVB became the 4th and 5th (Queen's Edinburgh Rifles) Battalions Royal Scots TF after 1908. It is plausible that the pictured SD jacket is a legacy from the noted uniform of the QRVB. This is also consistent, geographically, with the hypothesis that the original photograph is of Edinburgh University OTC cadets.

[Muerrisch]

My pennorth: the cuff lace is in 'crow's foot' or 'carpet beater' style, often used to distinguish VF/ TF from regular soldiers. Such cuff lace was a matter for regimental definition: VF/ TF were semi-autonomous in matters of uniform.

As for the Wound badge, if it is such, we are talking later than July 1916. It does look very much like one, being bright, as either Russia braid or tailor's gilding metal, so I think it is up to the doubters to make a case.

I would add that the cuff lace pattern was current [on scarlet] for the Zulu War 1879, and retained in India for full dress [the IP scarlet frock] right up to 1914. In these cases it was white braid or "piping".

[FROGSMILE]

Another couple of pictures on which I would be grateful for some help with identification.

Again, I'm afraid the quality isn't great - but the originals are only 1.5 x 2.5 inches and a bit faded so they're really not bad considering!

This merry band are wearing the kilt, apart from the officer (seated centre) and the sergeant (leaning on stick).

The sergeant features in a separate photograph and we get a better look at his badge - which looks like it could possibly be a St Andrew's Cross surmounted by a crown. It seems wider at the base, which suggests that whatever it is is stitting on a scroll. He has a nice belt buckle too - but unfortunately I can't get it to reveal any detail.

Again, I have had a trawl around trying to find a suitable candidate and can't find any obvious contenders. Any suggestions?

Cheers

Piers

It does look like a wound stripe to me.

An unusual point is that he is wearing a belt, sword, staff serjeant and carriages (i.e. slings) from the Slade Wallace equipment in brown leather. These were not issued in brown leather until after 1902 as part of the SD uniform.

[pierssc]

Hello Frogsmile

Thank you for your comments. I may have led you astray on this I'm afraid, as I posted only cropped versions of the picture of the sergeant as we were looking at his badges initially. Here's a copy of the whole thing. I'm afraid it's not a sword at his side, it's a walking stick. However I agree that there seem to be some kind of straps hanging at his hip, if not carriages for a sword, then at least something very like them. Very odd. As I think I mentioned earlier, it seems to me that the stick is more than just an accessory; I think the sergeant is leaning on it in both photos rather more than he might, which maybe ties in with his having been wounded (there's also a solo picture of the officer from the same sequence, who also has a stick, but he is not putting any weight on it). Wounded and in the OTC? Well, I assume he was with some other regiment when he was wounded, and was maybe posted to the EU OTC as their sergeant-major/staff sergeant or whatever - I mean the professional soldier or former soldier who really runs the Corps while the others play at being soldiers. It sounds a good billet for someone who might, for example, have difficulty marching because of a wound (left leg?)..... Does this sound possible? I may be reading too much into it, but it also strikes me that the cadets are basking in the reflected glamour of being with a war hero, and that the NCO is thoroughly enjoying being the centre of attention! He's in the prime position in the group photo, upstaging the officer (who is looking rather relaxed, with his jacket undone). The NCO is one of the few who hasn't undone at least one button of his jacket.

So we are very probably looking at the period after July 1916 because of what looks very like a wound stripe, so my identification of one of the group must have been wrong, especially as I can find no reference to the chap I thought it was ever having been in the OTC. The research continues!

[FROGSMILE]

Hello Frogsmile

Thank you for your comments. I may have led you astray on this I'm afraid, as I posted only cropped versions of the picture of the sergeant as we were looking at his badges initially. Here's a copy of the whole thing. I'm afraid it's not a sword at his side, it's a walking stick. However I agree that there seem to be some kind of straps hanging at his hip, if not carriages for a sword, then at least something very like them. Very odd. As I think I mentioned earlier, it seems to me that the stick is more than just an accessory; I think the sergeant is leaning on it in both photos rather more than he might, which maybe ties in with his having been wounded (there's also a solo picture of the officer from the same sequence, who also has a stick, but he is not putting any weight on it). Wounded and in the OTC? Well, I assume he was with some other regiment when he was wounded, and was maybe posted to the EU OTC as their sergeant-major/staff sergeant or whatever - I mean the professional soldier or former soldier who really runs the Corps while the others play at being soldiers. It sounds a good billet for someone who might, for example, have difficulty marching because of a wound (left leg?)..... Does this sound possible? I may be reading too much into it, but it also strikes me that the cadets are basking in the reflected glamour of being with a war hero, and that the NCO is thoroughly enjoying being the centre of attention! He's in the prime position in the group photo, upstaging the officer (who is looking rather relaxed, with his jacket undone). The NCO is one of the few who hasn't undone at least one button of his jacket.

So we are very probably looking at the period after July 1916 because of what looks very like a wound stripe, so my identification of one of the group must have been wrong, especially as I can find no reference to the chap I thought it was ever having been in the OTC. The research continues!

I did not mean to suggest that he had a sword in his hand, but merely that he is wearing a staff sergeant's sword belt and 'slings' (officially called 'carriage'). The ends of the slings have brass spring clips and when a sword is not worn these were (and still are) worn clipped together. They are tantamount to a badge of office when wearing SD (and still are with No2 Dress parade order). The reason that they appear unusual in this case is because the badge of rank of a staff sergeant had (has) a crown above the 3 chevrons. However, at that time the 'Sergeant Drummer' (later reverting to the title drum major) was always dressed and accoutred as a staff sergeant and it is possible that this is who we are seeing here.

I agree with the scenario that he might be a wounded veteran serving in a cadet unit.