BeppoSapone Posted 17 February , 2005 Share Posted 17 February , 2005 In June 1917, there was discussion in 1 ANZAC Corps regarding a method of identifying casualties incurred by raiding parties ( as a result of taking no identification ). At that time, the idea was that raiding party identity discs would be on a “luggage check system”. Tin raiding discs were to be prepared in duplicate with numbers only. They were to be prepared by a Battalion or Company store. All men detailed for a raid would be allotted one of those discs. At the time of issue the men would hand in their two normal identity discs, and the duplicate raiding disc was tied to these. Interesting Chris. Has anyone seen any? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 17 February , 2005 Share Posted 17 February , 2005 I possess one to the South Lancs No I don't! He was ex-South Lancs. He was 1/Ox&Bucks Light Infantry by the time the written tag was made (confirmed by etchings on the rear of the 1907 tag) Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 I have also got a few discs with the details handwritten in ink etc. Now, you may say "fake, but I doubt it. For example, I have had the scanned WW1 Canadian nurses post November 1916 discs for over 20 years. They could be faked today, but I don't think that the information that would be needed to fake them was widely available "back then". The fact that Katherine Lucy Clarkson, the original owner of these discs, can be found in the Archives makes me more likely to believe that they are genuine. See here: http://data2.archives.ca/cef/ren2/021459a.gif Here is a lighter pic of the Canadian WW1 nurses discs. Would a mod be kind enough to put this instead of my original scan? I don't think that I can remove JPGs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Handwritten discs were actually "officially" sanctioned sometime between January and June 1915 as a "stop-gap" measure. I have got something official about this somewhere (and I seem to recall posting something about them on this forum a couple of years ago). Dave, If you could find the original reference to where it was officially sanctioned and repost I'd appreciate it. I did a search and could not find the reference. I don't doubt the practice of handwritten ones as a stopgap measure, however, if you have some kind of ACI or Order sanctioning the practice this would close a few loose ends. One of your post from about two years ago stated you actually had not found anything official at that time. Have you turned up more research? Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Of course nothing to do with Australian tags. Concerning handwritten tags. This is only speculation, but giving this some thought. The marking of the tag was done regimentally per Orders. Prior to the war AO 75 1911 mandated that all discs be fully marked and stored ready for mobilization. This included Regulars, Reservists, and Special Reservists. OCs of Territorial Force units were also to store discs (except cat b Special Reservists). Odd for the TF only Unit, number and name were to be marked and no Religiuos denomination. Anyone ever come across a tag like this? Tags could be marked by the man-Pre War (in the presense of an officer/NCO). This was probably the case as no great influx of recruits happened at anyone time. Or war time by authorized individuals which some GROs lead me to believe and makes sense. When blanks tags were issued- particularly in 14 through 15, I can see that the soldier was to mark his personnal info on the tag first. One as a stopgap measure until stamps became available and secondly once the stamps were available as a marking guide for the guy with the stamps. Would be interesting to research some more. I doubt this kind of info would be found in any type order above that of a Regimental routine order or more likely a war diary or personal account. Just how durable do you think the handwritten examples are? I ask because to me it seems that under bad conditions it would not last too long. This is why I tend to think that it was used as a marking guide. Since I can find no BEF GRO saying these are unauthorized, or should be replaced at earliest oppurtunity I tend to think these are a UK phenomena. Having said that I can't find any orders specifically stating that tags need to be stamped prior to departure overseas either. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Just how durable do you think the handwritten examples are? I ask because to me it seems that under bad conditions it would not last too long. This is why I tend to think that it was used as a marking guide. You could be right Joe. I have some that are just hand written, and others that, IIRC, have had details stamped on top of writing, some of which remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 "I have some that are just hand written, and others that, IIRC, have had details stamped on top of writing, some of which remains" Tony, (I hope I got your name correct) If at some point in the future at your convience post a photo I'd appreciate the effort. Thank, Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 "I have some that are just hand written, and others that, IIRC, have had details stamped on top of writing, some of which remains" Tony, (I hope I got your name correct) If at some point in the future at your convience post a photo I'd appreciate the effort. Thank, Joe Sweeney Hi Joe Yes, it's Tony. I will have to see what I have and get back to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Henschke Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 I would think that the ink marked discs are more of a stopgap. I would imagine that after a kit check, (and especially if the unit was returning back to the line) that the ink discs were better than nothing. And to speculate, after the soldier was eventually issued stamped discs, the inked disc just stays with him as a spare, packed away, perhaps? They are not restricted to UK units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Chris, Thanks, generally I know little of the Australians. It would also not surprise me if these were actually extras acquired by the soldier to carry in addition to the issued and marked variety. Not having easy access to a marking kit would explain handwriting also as acquiring the disc may have been easier than marking it. Below is an image of an extra number 1 green worn on the braces (anyone ever have a handwritten one of these?) in addition to the those worn on the neck. This is out of a photo of 6 men, three have extra discs on their person. Two have SD jackets and the sixth is standing behind the group so can't tell. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 At that time, the idea was that raiding party identity discs would be on a “luggage check system”. Tin raiding discs were to be prepared in duplicate with numbers only. They were to be prepared by a Battalion or Company store. All men detailed for a raid would be allotted one of those discs. At the time of issue the men would hand in their two normal identity discs, and the duplicate raiding disc was tied to these. I don't know if this is a WW2 extension of this "raid disc" idea, using the number from the unit "block"? I have had these discs for years. The only marking is: "1697780". Royal Artillery "block" I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Henschke Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 Here's another interesting variation. Again, probably a spare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 19 February , 2005 Share Posted 19 February , 2005 One of your post from about two years ago stated you actually had not found anything official at that time. Have you turned up more research? Hi Joe. Yes I have. Unfortunately, it's not where I thought it was, but, don't worry, I'll find it - it can't be far. It's because of this extra info that I have "May 1915" and the end of 2nd Ypres stuck in my head for some reason. Problem is, I've accrued that much "junk" since then that some info's been "buried". Nothing's been thrown away, so it'll turn up (eventually). Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 20 February , 2005 Share Posted 20 February , 2005 Problem is, I've accrued that much "junk" since then that some info's been "buried". Dave, I can understand that. I too have much that has gone into and been buried in the bottomless file cabinets. Look forward to your reply. Take Care, Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 20 February , 2005 Share Posted 20 February , 2005 "I have some that are just hand written, and others that, IIRC, have had details stamped on top of writing, some of which remains" Tony, (I hope I got your name correct) If at some point in the future at your convience post a photo I'd appreciate the effort. Thank, Joe Sweeney Hi Joe Yes, it's Tony. I will have to see what I have and get back to you. Joe No luck so far in finding a stamped disc that has enough writing left on it to scan. You can almost read things if a disc is held at a certain angle. Anyway, I am still looking. Meanwhile, I have a theory that, in November 1916, troops actually in the line were given a blank green disc and told to write their details on it. When they were pulled back for rest they handed over the green discs for stamping. Of course, a few slipped through! The pair on a piece of leather bootlace belonged to 965450 E J Godrey of the RFA. So did the green disc, but it is not stamped at all and the writing has faded too much to read. The second pair of discs belonged to 8535 Pte Maslen, W J. The rear is stamped 2 COL. I take this to be London Regiment rather than Coldstream Guards, but I could be wrong. The green disc is handwitten. With a jewellers loupe (sp?) you can tell that the details are the same as the red disc. I hope that this writing can be seen on the scan. The last item has no individuals details on it, and does not look as if it ever did. I wonder what the point of that was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantsmil Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 I have some Australian identity disks (dogtags). They are the pressed fiber type and I was wondering if there is a way to tell WWI from WWII disks? Would it be by serial number, unit or something else? Chip, I will attempt to attach three images of Australian ID discs, all to the same family from service in WW1, the Australian Militia and the 2nd AIF of WW2. Hopefully the images will show the differences in the information and style of serial numbers. (ie no prefix for WW1 a single letter for the Militia and a double letter for WW2) These images are of the usual type, nothing exotic. http://www.grantsmilitaria.com/gall/pix/images/390.jpg http://www.grantsmilitaria.com/gall/pix/images/372.jpg G W VINALL WW2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantsmil Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 Sorry I'll try again 1. Vinall tags Australian Militia service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantsmil Posted 22 February , 2005 Share Posted 22 February , 2005 Lastly Vinall WW1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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