Australian Identity Disks

[Stephen Nulty]

Sample of discs, these belonging to for Pte. J Evans, South Lancs regiment.

Courtesy Warrington Museum

Steve

[Andrew Upton]

Grants Militaria:

Sorry to have taken so long to reply, but I've been trying to find information to back up my statement.

It was not one person in my reenactment group that made the point about the quick deterioration of the fibre ID discs - it was what I had heard, and everyone who was present agreed with their low rate of survival for long periods of exposure, and everyone was as equally baffled by me as to their continued use post WW1! The possible explanations we came up with included a) the continued issue of old stock (not likely given the huge numbers issued during WW2) b ) the fact that in a peacetime situation (ie 1918-1939) soldiers bodies were unlikely to be left exposed long enough for deterioration to take place so that non-deteriorating discs weren't necessary, and c) the Government didn't want to spend any more cash than necessary on developing a better/more expensive to manufacture solution (voted most likely!).

Anyhow, one programme to back this up - Meet The Ancestors, 2002, "The Forgotten Battlefield" - Historian Paul Reed commentated on the fibrous discs that "these do not survive in the ground", and then went on to comment on the proliferation of aluminium identity bracelets so that soldiers fears that their body might not be identified after death would be lessened.

[Andrew Upton]

Just had a look on the web, and found the following sources:

"By 1920 nearly 4 000 men were engaged full-time to comb the battle areas. The front was divided into squared areas, each searched six times, but ten years after the war forty bodies were still being handed over weekly by the French for reasons of both piety and reward since a ten-franc bounty went with each corpse. Between 1921 and 1928 nearly 30 000 corpses were interred, of which only about a quarter could be identified since fibre identity-discs issued before 1916 had rotten."

Denis Winter: Death's Men. Soldiers of the Great War (1978), p. 260.

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:NYrfhI_...ity+discs&hl=en

[Andrew Upton]

I.D. - Identity disc; bearing service number, unit, rank, name and religion. Initially only one disc of fibre or aluminium. Worn on string around neck. Post-1916, two fibre discs one green, one red. The green to be left on the body, the red to be collected as proof of death. Because of the poor durability of the issue discs some servicemen purchased their own in a heavier aluminium version.

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:hYAePK9...ity+discs&hl=en

[Andrew Upton]

Most identity discs during the Great War was made of 'Compressed fibre' which disintergrated when buried

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:8gx6P...ity+discs&hl=en

[Andrew Upton]

Fibre discs of this kind were replaced in mid 1917 with a

metallic version capable of withstanding moisture so Mannock may

have been wearing the new type when he died.

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:RkVDp...ity+discs&hl=en

[Andrew Upton]

I think thats enough to help prove my point.

[BeppoSapone]

I think thats enough to help prove my point.

Andrew

I don't want to quibble, but I think that you would need to post a picture of this "mid 1917" issue tag to prove your point.

I have never seen one. I have seen the metal 'neck' discs being worn by the British in 1914 and a similar type, with next of kin details, being worn by the Australians. Another round metal type was being worn by the Canadians, and yet another "zinc" type being worn by the New Zealanders. But, a 1917 type????

The only pair of metal tags that I know of being worn by Commonwealth/Empire troops were worn in the jungle in WW2. I have some that were worn by the Australians, and have read that some were worn by the British in Burma.

[Joe Sweeney]

Between 1921 and 1928 nearly 30 000 corpses were interred, of which only about a quarter could be identified since fibre identity-discs issued before 1916 had rotten."

Andrew,

Interesting Statement. I may be reading too much into what is being said but a lot can explain, "since fibre identity-discs issued before 1916 had rotten", other than the tags rotted.

I doubt very many if any tags rotted before 1928. The tags were made of vulcanized Asbestos fibre (Not compressed fibre) which is hard to rot. Also, the part that easily rotted wasn't the tag, it was the cord. However, after 80 years I can see the elements taking their toll and destroying what remained of the tags.

A very easy partial explanation for no tags before 1916 is that the Red, or Aluminium tag, was to be removed from the body per the FS Regulations. So the tag may have already, in all likelihood, have been removed. This is the reason why the issue of the green tag in the first place so one could remain wit the body. Even with the issue of the Green Tag a GRO had to be issued warning against the continued practice of removing both tags should be stopped (GRO 2228, 7 April 1917).

Also I believe the plethora of private purchase tags wasn't done against the expected rotting of the fibre tags it was to put Identifying tags on as many parts of the body as the soldier thought prudent due to potential separation of those parts, or potential separation of tag from body at the final moment. I have several photos of soldiers with private purchase tags on the wrist; extra fibre tags on braces and all over the place.

Those 1917 tags are you just referring to Australian tags or British tags? Or both?

Joe Sweeney

[CROONAERT]

I think that you would need to post a picture of this "mid 1917" issue tag to prove your point.

I have never seen one. I have seen the metal 'neck' discs being worn by the British in 1914 and a similar type, with next of kin details, being worn by the Australians. Another round metal type was being worn by the Canadians, and yet another "zinc" type being worn by the New Zealanders. But, a 1917 type????

Ditto.

I'd be extremely interested in these as I've never heard of them either.

Anyway, here's some Aussie tags I have handy....

1. WW1...

[CROONAERT]

2. WW2...

[CROONAERT]

The question raised was: if these tags were shown to be flawed in WW1, why did they continue to issue them well into WW2, before replacing them with aluminium ID discs?

I think you'll find that they were produced well after WW2, still being issued in the 1960's British Army.

Dave.

[Andrew Upton]

Must confess, I have no idea what the 1917 ID discs referrs to - I was just searching the web for pages with references to the poor durability of the fibre discs. Slightly worrying is the varying dates listed for the introduction of the fibre tags, let alone the varying types of tag issued during the war.

It just seems to me that there are more modern references to how undurable the fibre tags are as opposed to how durable they are. I really would be happy if I could see some contemporary records of the tags performance!

[BeppoSapone]

Must confess, I have no idea what the 1917 ID discs referrs to - I was just searching the web for pages with references to the poor durability of the fibre discs. Slightly worrying is the varying dates listed for the introduction of the fibre tags, let alone the varying types of tag issued during the war.

It just seems to me that there are more modern references to how undurable the fibre tags are as opposed to how durable they are. I really would be happy if I could see some contemporary records of the tags performance!

My information is November 1916, but I can't cite the Army Order etc. My own view is that I will believe in these 1917 issue metal discs when I see some.

Going off slightly at a tangent I am not at all sure that I believe in this certain size of lettering being used on discs idea. I have seen a fair number of genuine discs with letter sizes that vary.

I have also got a few discs with the details handwritten in ink etc. Now, you may say "fake, but I doubt it. For example, I have had the scanned WW1 Canadian nurses post November 1916 discs for over 20 years.

They could be faked today, but I don't think that the information that would be needed to fake them was widely available "back then". The fact that Katherine Lucy Clarkson, the original owner of these discs, can be found in the Archives makes me more likely to believe that they are genuine.

See here: http://data2.archives.ca/cef/ren2/021459a.gif

Can of worms opened!

[BeppoSapone]

Anyway, here's some Aussie tags I have handy....

1. WW1...

Dave

Do your WW1 Australian discs have the next of kin on the back? Mine do. For example here is the front of one, Victor Bannerman, 7 Bn AIF.

I will post the back, with his mothers address, right away.

[BeppoSapone]

Victor Bannermans mother, Alfred Street, Woolwich, Sydney

[Chris Henschke]

I have just noticed this thread and thought this may be of interest. It indicates the rough date of introduction of the ;

Disc, identity, No. 1 green , and

Disc, identity, No. 2. red.

Australian Military Orders (MO) of 1916

MO 507 of the 4th November 1916, is an extract from Army Orders - September, 1916.

In future each officer and soldier will be supplied with two identity discs.

The upper disc will be known as "Disc, identity No. 1,green"; the lower one as "Disc,identity, No.2, red."

"Disc, identity, No.1, green" will be issued with six inches of cord attached. In the case of troops now serving it will, after it is marked, be substituted for the red disc now in possession. The red disc will then be fastened to the green one by string (1 1/4") attached to the latter.

That extract probably refers to Army Orders, A.O. 287 (1916)

I apologise if this information has been posted before and I missed it!

The red discs were also used as specially marked raid discs from late 1917.

Chris Henschke

[BeppoSapone]

The red discs were also used as specially marked raid discs from late 1917.

Chris Henschke

Chris

Thanks for that information, it confirms what I had thought.

What are these "raid" discs and how were they marked?

[Chris Henschke]

In June 1917, there was discussion in 1 ANZAC Corps regarding a method of identifying casualties incurred by raiding parties ( as a result of taking no identification ).

At that time, the idea was that raiding party identity discs would be on a “luggage check system”. Tin raiding discs were to be prepared in duplicate with numbers only. They were to be prepared by a Battalion or Company store.

All men detailed for a raid would be allotted one of those discs. At the time of issue the men would hand in their two normal identity discs, and the duplicate raiding disc was tied to these.

In a signal dated 24 Oct 1917, from Second Army to

VIII Corps

IX corps

X Corps

I Corps

I Anzac

II Anzac

Canadian Corps

It states;

“…It has been decided to issue specially marked identity discs to Divisions for issue to raiding parties as required.

The ordinary No.2 red disc will be used for this purpose, and 4,000 will be issued to each Division, to be stamped in duplicate with the index letters and numbers shown in the attached statement, the index letters being stamped one above and one below the number thus:-

A

129

B

Stamping will be carried out under Divisional arrangement –stamps are already authorized under G.R.O. 862.”

For example, 1st Australian Division was allocated

C 34,000 to

D 36,000

On return from the raid, the raid identity disc would be handed back in exchange for the two ordinary identity discs “care being taken that the corresponding raid disc is detached therefrom.”

If an Officer or Other Rank was reported missing as a result of the raid, the three discs left with the Unit (i.e. the two ordinary discs and the duplicate raid disc) was sent to G.H.Q., 3rd Echelon.

In the event of the original raid disc (i.e. the one on the person) being found by a burial party, etc, it was sent to G.H.Q., 3rd Echelon for verification.

Chris Henschke

[Joe Sweeney]

Beppo,

If I'm reading your posts correctly, I think you state that you doubt that there was prescribed stamp size?

There was an officially mandated stamp size to be used on Identity Discs.

The Discs were introduced with Army Order 9, 1 January 1907. "Discs were to be marked locally using 1/8-inch steel stamps." . However, the illustration used in the Army Order clearly shows the use of a few letter characters smaller than 1/8 inch. Units requiring these stamps would submit indents for their supply.

Army Order 102, 1 May 1907 The illustration included in this order now shows a uniform 1/8" stamp size.

To give you an idea of when the additional Green Disc actualy started being issued to the BEF in France: General Routine Order 1922, 2 November 1916,announced the introduction of “Disc, identity, No. 1 green”; in addition the order temporarily doubled the issue of stamping kits to those authorized under General Routine Order 862, 20 May 1915.

Seems that there was always a shortage of the stamping kits as there were quite a few GRO's issued addressing the issue of the kits, so that in itself could easily explain why alternate sizes and methods were used to mark the discs.

Chris,

Yes the extract is an almost direct lift from AO 287.

Joe Sweeney

[BeppoSapone]

Beppo,

If I'm reading your posts correctly, I think you state that you doubt that there was prescribed stamp size?

There was an officially mandated stamp size to be used on Identity Discs.

The Discs were introduced with Army Order 9, 1 January 1907. "Discs were to be marked locally using 1/8-inch steel stamps." . However, the illustration used in the Army Order clearly shows the use of  a few letter characters smaller than 1/8 inch. Units requiring these stamps would submit indents for their supply.

Joe

What I was doubting was not the regulations, but the practice.

The majority of my discs conform to the regulations, but a significant minority do not.

For example, the Victor Bannerman Australian disc is engraved not stamped at all. Nurse Clarksons Canadian disc is handwritten in ink, and I have quite a few discs using other sizes of stamp than those given in the regulations.

Hope this has clarified my point, and the shortage of stamping kits that you mention must explain why the rules were not followed.

[CROONAERT]

I have also got a few discs with the details handwritten in ink etc. Now, you may say "fake, but I doubt it.

Tony.

Handwritten discs were actually "officially" sanctioned sometime between January and June 1915 as a "stop-gap" measure. I have got something official about this somewhere (and I seem to recall posting something about them on this forum a couple of years ago). I possess one to the South Lancs and have possessed several of these in the past and have never doubted their authenticity. I'd never seen a handwritten post-September 1916 No.1 disc before though. I believe they'd stopped this practice in the British Army by the latter half of 1915, however, in the Canadian Army - I don't know. Maybe they carried it on?

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

Dave

Do your WW1 Australian discs have the next of kin on the back?

If I recall correctly one or two did (I swapped or sold most of my Australian collection a while ago) but most didn't. None of those that I've pictured here do. A couple were rather ornate with the Australian Coat of Arms on the reverse. I don't know why, but I was never happy with these ones.

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

What I was doubting was not the regulations, but the practice.

The majority of my discs conform to the regulations, but a significant minority do not.

...and just to illustrate this point...

[BeppoSapone]

I have also got a few discs with the details handwritten in ink etc. Now, you may say "fake, but I doubt it.

Tony.

Handwritten discs were actually "officially" sanctioned sometime between January and June 1915 as a "stop-gap" measure. I have got something official about this somewhere (and I seem to recall posting something about them on this forum a couple of years ago). I possess one to the South Lancs and have possessed several of these in the past and have never doubted their authenticity. I'd never seen a handwritten post-Nov 1916 No.1 disc before though. I believe they'd stopped this practice in the British Army by the latter half of 1915, however, in the Canadian Army - I don't know. Maybe they carried it on?

Dave.

Dave

Looks as if the Canucks did carry it on. Nurse Katherine Lucy Clarkson entered the army in April 1917.

I also have a pair of hand written red discs to a British VAD nurse. Don't ask me why she had two red and no green. They are tied on cord, so they are "as worn". I don't have half of a pair and a disc from a gasmask case! Interestingly, she has written her home address, in Plymouth, on the back of one disc.

I have a few other hand 'written items', but I will need to dig them out, and get back to you.