Australian Identity Disks

[Guest Chip Minx]

I have some Australian identity disks (dogtags). They are the pressed fiber type and I was wondering if there is a way to tell WWI from WWII disks? Would it be by serial number, unit or something else?

Is it possible to research these disks? One of them has the unit abbreviation "6AMTCO". Would this be 6.Australian Motorized Transport Company? The other two are from the 14th and the 22nd Infantry Battalions.

Thanks,

Chip

[Blackblue]

Chip,

Could actually be either but usually WW1. The fibre ones were replaced near the start of WW2.

http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/dog_tags.htm

Go to these links to search for the inidividuals you are looking for in the WW1 and WW2 Nominal Rolls.

http://www.awm.gov.au/database/nroll.asp

Regards

Tim D

[Blackblue]

PS. I would say it is 6 Australian Mechanical Transport Company.

Look at this link and go to Mechanical Transport Companies in the left column. They were formed in France on the 13th March 1918 and served on the Western Front.

Regards

TD

[BeppoSapone]

I have some Australian identity disks (dogtags). They are the pressed fiber type and I was wondering if there is a way to tell WWI from WWII disks? Would it be by serial number, unit or something else?

Is it possible to research these disks? One of them has the unit abbreviation "6AMTCO". Would this be 6.Australian Motorized Transport Company? The other two are from the 14th and the 22nd Infantry Battalions.

Thanks,

Chip

Post November 1916 WW1 discs, because:

1) they name the unit, - WW2 ones don't.

2) Also, check the mans number - WW2 Australian Army discs had a letter prefix which denoted where the soldier was recruited eg Militiamen had S for South Australia, V for Victoria etc and 2AIF had an "X" - for volunteer as well eg SX, VX etc etc

[Fromelles]

BeppoSapone is quite right in saying only First War discs state the soldiers unit, though this practice pre-dates Nov 16 and in fact pre-dates the war.

The issue of the aluminium discs came about with the following Military Order (MO)which reads in part:

MO 381 of 8 Jul 13

"Samples of the War Office pattern identity disc, and cord for suspending same round the neck, have been sealed to govern future supplies for use by the Commonwealth Military Forces."

Initially only the unit was stamped with the regimental number, name and Squadron or Company added when orders to mobilize are received.

Australian Imperial Force Orders (AIFO) No 8 of Sep 14 states:

Each officer and man will carry on a string round his neck an identity disc showing his name, number if any, unit, and religion (religion wasn't mentioned in the above order).

MO 507 of 4 Nov 16 is an extract of Army Order 287 of September 16

It states that officers and soldiers will be supplied two discs, Disc, identity No 1, green and No 2, red.

As yet there doesn't appear to be an offical order for the issue of the Red disc prior to Nov 16, which could be why so many of the Aussie discs are of the aluminium variety. That's not to say lost or missing discs weren't replaced with the fibre type.

Though not my strong point (WW2 discs). The issue of the fibre disc continued well into the Second World War if not until the end and beyond with the only metal discs I've sighted are marked to members of the RAAF.

If I've still got anyones attention it might be of interest to know the regimental numbers for nurses in the 2nd AIF (WW2) was firstly (as mentioned by BeppoSapone) the State prefix S - South Aust, Q -Queensland, T -Tasmania etc. secondly 'F' for female, thirdly 'X' for AIF enlistment, and lastly their number eg. SFX1234 or VFX5678 so on and so forth.

Cheers

Dan

[BeppoSapone]

BeppoSapone is quite right in saying only First War discs state the soldiers unit, though this practice pre-dates Nov 16 and in fact pre-dates the war.

The issue of the aluminium discs came about with the following Military Order (MO)which reads in part:

MO 381 of 8 Jul 13

"Samples of the War Office pattern identity disc, and cord for suspending same round the neck, have been sealed to govern future supplies for use by the Commonwealth Military Forces."

Initially only the unit was stamped with the regimental number, name and Squadron or Company added when orders to mobilize are received.

Australian Imperial Force Orders (AIFO) No 8 of Sep 14 states:

Each officer and man will carry on a string round his neck an identity disc showing his name, number if any, unit, and religion (religion wasn't mentioned in the above order).

Dan

Dan

Do you have any 'bumf' regarding 'next of kin' detail being written on the reverse of the single metal disc as worn by the AIF before November 1916?

I have two or three Australian metal tags that have this information on the reverse, something that does not seem to have been done in the British Army.

You will be interested in hearing that I read of an Australian jockey who was working in Singapore, and joined the 2AIF when the 8th Division landed. His number was MX1. I wonder how many of these Malayan numbers were actually issued?

[Fromelles]

BeppoSapone,

I know of nothing official in regards marking NoK details on discs, but I can easily imagine it was a practice the soldiers did on their own behalf. Possibly the British were kept in check in this regard.

There are also private purchase aluminium discs with the Australian coat of arms on the reverse that turn up on ebay from time to time, over priced in my opinion (as with everything Aussie WW1) but interesting all the same.

Do you have a name for the jockey who enlisted in the 8th?, I've had a look on the WW2 nominal roll for a 'MX1' but struck out. I've never heard of this, but that doesn't mean much.

Would like to know what discs you have.

Cheers

DAN

[Guest Chip Minx]

Thanks to all.

Blackblue,

I found two out of the three men that the disks belonged to at the site you suggested. All are WWI and one is aluminum. There were a few tidbits of additional information.

Regards,

Chip

[Blackblue]

What are the names mate. Perhaps someone else can help.

Tim

[Guest Chip Minx]

OK, the names are,

John Whelan 13330 6AMTCO

R.V. Holloway 327 C.COY. 14BN.

Greene 4717 22AIF

This last one is the one that did not show up on the rolls. The only Greene with the 22nd BN. that I could find was an officer and no serial number was given.

Thanks,

Chip

[Fromelles]

Chip,

Not Greene, but Green E

Regt No - 4717

Rank - Pte

Name - Green, Ernest

Age - 24 (at enlistment)

Trade - Tabacco worker

Status - Single

NoK - Father, Mr. JH Green, 360 Glenlyon Rd, Brunswick, Melbourne, Victoria

Religion - Pres

Enlisted - 29 Jan 16 or 17 Feb 16 (two diffrent sources)

Occurrence - RTA (Returned to Australia)

Date - 30 Jan 18

12 Reinforcements, 22nd Battalion

Embarked Melbourne, Victoria, on HMAT A14 'Euripides' on 4 Apr 16

Hope this clears that up.

Dan

[BeppoSapone]

Do you have a name for the jockey who enlisted in the 8th?, I've had a look on the WW2 nominal roll for a 'MX1' but struck out. I've never heard of this, but that doesn't mean much.

Would like to know what discs you have.

Cheers

DAN

Dan

I will have to see what I can find and get back to you. I have fairly recently moved and my collection is still in a state of chaos. I have hundreds of identity discs, far too many to remember exactly what I have off the top of my head.

However, the first disc I ever obtained is one of the WW1 discs I mentioned, so I do remember the details. It belonged to a soldier of the 7th Bn AIF called Victor Bannerman, who died of wounds received at 3rd Ypres. He is buried at Lijssenthoek. By the time he died he would have been wearing the red/green pair and must have sent his metal disc home to his family. The back of the metal disc is marked "Mother, Alfred Street, Woolwich, Sydney". The CWGC say that Bannerman was actually a New Zealander, which fits because the disc was obtained from New Zealand back in the 1970s.

IIRC another WW1 Australian disc belonged to an artilleryman from Queensland. The back is marked with his n-o-k "Father, PO Box something, someplace, Queensland" Will have to see if I can dig it out.

I know what you mean about ebay. I once bid on a WW1 Australian paybook and left a proxy bid of what I foolishly thought was an ample amount...

The jockey story comes from a book I read about the 2AIF in Malaya/Singapore. Could have been called "Grim Glory", but I wouldn't swear to that. I will have to find my notes and get back to you. Not sure how long that will take though

[Blackblue]

You can actually search the WW2 Nominal Roll via place which includes locality on enlistment. Couldn't find any MX numbers. The only time I have seen something similar is NGX or NG numbers for New Guinea enlistments. Also found a P1 for a Rabaul enlistment.

Of enlistments in Singapore there are three Merchant Navy and only one other:

Tzietse VAN DE GAAST who was born in Holland and who appears to have had the number VX108102. His last posting was as a Lieutenant with HQ New Giunea Force.

There are three Malayan enlistments two with a WX number and one with a NX number. The NX chap enlisted on the 24th January 1942. Singapore fell on the 15th February and he spent the rest of the war as a POW. Not long in the army!!

Regards

Tim D

[Guest stevenbec]

Mate,

The reason for two enlistment dates could be the first is the enlistment date while the other is the date of joining the 12R/22Bn.

I have come across this a few times.

S.B

[Guest Chip Minx]

Thanks to Dan and S.B. for the additional information.

Chip

[Fromelles]

S.B,

You could be right.

I just had a quick look at the nomianl roll and the embarkation roll and got the conflicting dates between the two. I've found many omisions and errors on the nominal roll and I'll put my money on that as the reason for the discrepency. That's not to say the embarkation rolls are 100% either.

Cheers

Dan

[BeppoSapone]

You can actually search the WW2 Nominal Roll via place which includes locality on enlistment.  Couldn't find any MX numbers.  The only time I have seen something similar is NGX or NG numbers for New Guinea enlistments.  Also found a P1 for a Rabaul enlistment. 

Of enlistments in Singapore there are three Merchant Navy and only one other:

Tzietse VAN DE GAAST who was born in Holland and who appears to have had the number VX108102.  His last posting was as a Lieutenant with HQ New Giunea Force. 

There are three Malayan enlistments two with a WX number and one with a NX number.  The NX chap enlisted on the 24th January 1942.  Singapore fell on the 15th February and he spent the rest of the war as a POW.  Not long in the army!!

Regards

Tim D

Tim

I have hunted down my source, and it clearly says "MX1" and not the "NX etc" he would have had if he had been enlisted as if he still lived in his home town. As it also gives the mans name and Australian home town, maybe you can find out some more?

I was wrong about the title of the book. It was not "Grim Glory" but "Soldier Surgeon in Malaya" by Thomas Hamilton, pub. WDL Books, London, 1959, although I would expect that there was an earlier Australian edition.

On page 124 Hamilton says: "The bombers did not overlook our troops in Jahore Bahru, or the III Indian Corps headquarters on top of the hill. Major Peter Campbell and his driver Johnnie Brooks brought in Joe Mayo, who had joined up only five days previously; his Army number, MX1, signified that his was the very first enlistment of a Malayan resident in the AIF.

Brooks and Mayo were close pals. Both were from my home town of Newcastle, New South Wales, although for the past seven years Joe Mayo and his family had lived in Singapore, where he became one of Malaya's leading jockeys. Wearing the slouch hat as only Australians wear it, wiry and short in stature, shrewd from his practical knowledge of the ups and downs of life, both he and Brooks had typical brown hatchet faces that crinkled easily with good humour."

[Blackblue]

Beppo,

The chap I mentioned as the NX number with the 24 January enlistment appears to be your guy MAYO. For some reason he has an NX number. Probably changed from MX? A look at his service papers would probably confirm if anyone is that way inclined. I cannot access the POW files from this computer but they may be worth a look (bottom of the page).

http://www.awm.gov.au/database/biographical.asp

Service Record

Name MAYO, FRANK CLEVELAND

Service Australian Army

Service Number NX86529

Date of Birth 29 Oct 1902

Place of Birth WICKHAM, NSW

Date of Enlistment 24 Jan 1942

Locality on Enlistment Unknown

Place of Enlistment TAMPOI, MALAYA

Next of Kin MAYO, EDNA

Date of Discharge 10 Jan 1946

Rank Driver

Posting at Discharge AASC HQ 8 DIV

WW2 Honours and Gallantry None for display

Prisoner of War Yes

Regards

Tim D

[cazna]

TO DAN AND ALL WHO THINK AUSSIE PRICES HIGH

I have been a collector of Aussie WWI groups for 30 years and have run ads wanting to buy medals in local newspapers for that length of time. The response nowdays is VERY minimal.

I have continually read, and was told when in the UK recently of the lack of medals in the UK by collectors and dealers. However everywhere I went I saw fabulous groups to Englishmen, I constantly see lovely groups in dealers lists, on Speedbid or even on E-Bay.

The prices in Oz (ANY WWI TRIO - Battalion or Corps will cost a MINIMUM of 300 pounds, an MM AND TRIO A MINIMUM OF 1000 POUNDS) simply are based on supply and demand. Dealers here have virtually NO stock, any groups that enter the dealers shops go very quickly or more likely are offered to regular buyers. From what I have seen the average dealer would be lucky to have 2 or three WWI groups in stock at any time.

WHY?

There is ready and free access to Aussie Nominal and Embarkation rolls and other records - even a soldier's Service Records (some I have are up to 80 pages) come free, if requested to be placed on the National Archives web site, or can be sent as photocopies for about 6 pounds.

I believe that this has led to Oz groups being sought in the US and elsewhere.

With the rise in popularity of Internet auction sites, coupled with our weak $ has led to many medals leaving Australia, perhaps not to return for decades if at all.

As elsewhere, I think Aussies nowdays hold their family history in more regard and are less likely to sell medals. Our annual Anzac commemorative marches attract more interest every year.

I could rave on, but I certainly envy the cheaper prices for standard groups at least that you enjoy in the UK, and smile when I see experienced collectors there lament the increases in prices.

[BeppoSapone]

Beppo,

The chap I mentioned as the NX number with the 24 January enlistment appears to be your guy MAYO. For some reason he has an NX number. Probably changed from MX? A look at his service papers would probably confirm if anyone is that way inclined. I cannot access the POW files from this computer but they may be worth a look (bottom of the page).

http://www.awm.gov.au/database/biographical.asp

Service Record

Name MAYO, FRANK CLEVELAND

Service Australian Army

Service Number NX86529

Date of Birth 29 Oct 1902

Place of Birth WICKHAM, NSW

Date of Enlistment 24 Jan 1942

Locality on Enlistment Unknown

Place of Enlistment TAMPOI, MALAYA

Next of Kin MAYO, EDNA

Date of Discharge 10 Jan 1946

Rank Driver

Posting at Discharge AASC HQ 8 DIV

WW2 Honours and Gallantry None for display

Prisoner of War Yes

Regards

Tim D

Tim

Interesting stuff that, which shows that you should never trust any of the "official" documents 100%. At the very least they ought to have mentioned his MX number somewhere on his card.

Now that I know that "your" man is "my" man, you will be interested in knowing that, although he was not 'on active service' very long he was wounded. "Now Mayo's face was pale from loss of blood, while Brooks, with a small wound between the eyes, displayed much more concern about his mates condition than his own". The reason for these wounds being that the car being driven by Johnnie Brooks was damaged in the Japanese air attack: "There was a jagged hole in the side, above the driving seat, and an outlet hole in the roof. The windscreen was a fragmented fringe around the frame. Several smaller holes allowed daylight to stream into the back of the sedan body."

Whilst looking for the "MX papers" I also found some more notes about WW2 Australian Army prefixes:

The men of the Permanent Military Forces (PMF), who did not volunteer for the 2AIF, had a P prefix eg SP from South Australia, WP from Western Australia etc.

"Native" troops had the following prefixes: NGN - New Guinea Infantry Battalions, PN - Papuan Infantry Battalion, the Pacific Islands Regiment was a composite unit with men drawn from both Papua and New Guinea, who used the NGN & PN prefixes. The Aborigines of the Torres Straight Light Infantry were Militia from Queensland, and just had the usual Q prefix, although their numbers were drawn from the same "block".

Going off at a tangent I also found a photocopy that I made from "Voices of Gallipoli" by Tony Shadbolt. In the late 80s about 200 New Zealand survivors of Gallipoli were still alive. Shadbolt interviewed some and about a dozen have their stories in this book. One, Tony Fagan, had his life saved by his dog tag: "What saved me was my identity disc, or meat ticket. I had earlier taken it off my neck and slipped it into my left-hand breast tunic pocket. Though the high velocity bullet struck about a quarter of an inch below my heart, it was deflected by the disc in my pocket, so that it entered my abdomen and came out my left buttock."

[BeppoSapone]

I cannot access the POW files from this computer but they may be worth a look (bottom of the page).

http://www.awm.gov.au/database/biographical.asp

This seems to be a single mention in a nominal roll. The only 'new' thing it tells us is that he was held in Siam/Thailand.

[Blackblue]

Cheers Beppo. Very interesting. I wouldn't necessarily write of the MX story. He was only in the army for a very short time so I wonder whether his papers were the originals or duplicated later. The original papers may have been captured or destroyed when Singapore fell.

Regards

Tim

[BeppoSapone]

BeppoSapone,

I know of nothing official in regards marking NoK details on discs, but I can easily imagine it was a practice the soldiers did on their own behalf. Possibly the British were kept in check in this regard.

There are also private purchase aluminium discs with the Australian coat of arms on the reverse that turn up on ebay from time to time, over priced in my opinion (as with everything Aussie WW1) but interesting all the same.

Do you have a name for the jockey who enlisted in the 8th?, I've had a look on the WW2 nominal roll for a 'MX1' but struck out. I've never heard of this, but that doesn't mean much.

Would like to know what discs you have.

Cheers

DAN

Hi Dan

I have finally unearthed the early WW1 Australian metal identity discs, with the next of kin on the reverse. Better late than never!

1) 38262 Gunner Jennings P C AFA AIF. reverse: Mother Mrs C Jennings, 246 Campbell Street, Rockhampton, Qld.

2) 30184, W C Wilton, A FA C of E. reverse: Father, PO, Bumboka, NSW.

Hope I have got the details right. They are not stamped but engraved in fancy lettering.

[Andrew Upton]

Going slightly off the original point of the thread, but maybe someone can answer a question that was raised at a reenactment event last year.

The red and green fibre ID discs were developed as a cheaper alternative to the aluminium discs, but were supposed to still be heatproof and waterproof, and hence not rot after long exposure (the idea being that even if a body became badly decomposed after long exposure to the elements, the discs would still be intact to identify the body). However, during the war and in the post-war period, it was clearly evident that the discs did not meet these requirements, and often rotted very quickly, making identification of the body impossible in most cases without additional information. The question raised was: if these tags were shown to be flawed in WW1, why did they continue to issue them well into WW2, before replacing them with aluminium ID discs? Surely the army could see that the heartache caused by not being able to identify bodies due to the destruction of fibre tags after long exposure to the elements greatly out-weighed the cost of the aluminium which would have been necessary to produce the tags?

[grantsmil]

Andrew,

I am not sure that the fibre disc performed as poorly as you have been told. I would check with the person who told you about how quickly they deteriorated, and ascertain his source of information. It is true that they were replaced with metal discs in WW2, although I was under the impression that the later discs of WW2 were made of stainless steel

The single aluminum disc that the two fibre discs replace in 1915* was found to be lacking in many respects, and the fibre discs were deemed to be a very suitable substitute. I am not aware of any attempt to replace these discs during WW1, although I am sure it was discussed - some research on this topic might be interesting.

ORDER for Australian Imperial Forces. Issued by the Military Board for Units included in Personnel Table 2, and subsequent tables. 1915