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Looking for Maps of the Argonne-Oct. 1918


JOVE23

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Hello all

I recently posted this thread requesting information on two French artillery or trench maps that have the location of my great grand uncle's original battlefield grave before he was re-interred in the Meuse-Argonne American Cemetery.

I didn't realize until just now there's a specific sub-forum for maps! Maybe I will have better luck here.

I'm looking for the relevant portions of 211 Very Groupe de Canevas de Tir and/or map 35 NE.

Best,

Justin

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I'm looking for the relevant portions of 211 Very Groupe de Canevas de Tir and/or map 35 NE.

...or (a gridded version of) map sheet 35 :thumbsup:

(that one will also give you what you require and will probably be more commonly encountered in the English speaking world than the other two)

Dave

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...or (a gridded version of) map sheet 35 :thumbsup:

(that one will also give you what you require and will probably be more commonly encountered in the English speaking world than the other two)

Dave

Are the coordinates on 35 and 35 NE mutually intelligible?

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Yes. Sheet 35NE is simply a 'zoomed in' quadrant of Sheet 35 with the same grid. Bear in mind though that ungridded versions of Sheet 35 (and 35NE) exist, so its the gridded versions that you require.

Dave

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If you can find it, though, the Sheet 211 'Very' map would be the most accurate for your needs (unfortunately, though I've got most of the Argonne covered in 1:10,000 and 1:20,000 scale trenchmapping, I've only really concentrated on the 1915 - mid 1918 frontage and the Very map is just to the north of the nearest one I have (Montfaucon))

Dave

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I wonder if this is straying too much into other territory, but is it safe to assume from the information I provided in the other thread that my great grand uncle was buried more or less where he fell before the re-interment?

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I wonder if this is straying too much into other territory, but is it safe to assume from the information I provided in the other thread that my great grand uncle was buried more or less where he fell before the re-interment?

If I recall correctly, his was one of 6 isolated graves on the area of the advancing frontline through Chene Sec? If so, then yes, that is highly likely.

Dave

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If I recall correctly, his was one of 6 isolated graves on the area of the advancing frontline through Chene Sec? If so, then yes, that is highly likely.

Dave

Yes. The grave location blank has a grave number for him but I assumed that was just "#5 out of the half dozen or so we found in the area." If someone here has either of those maps, I could almost pinpoint where he was killed. One day I'd like to go to the exact spot and leave a memento or something.

I've got irons in the fire with the US Army Branch Historian and I sent a request to the French SHD but if anyone here can be of assistance I more than welcome it.

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Hallo Justin,

I raised an almost identical question concerning my ancestor after I received the burial case file from NARA. You are welcome to see “Great War Forum / Other / Geographical Coordinates”. “All Star Line” helped me over to the maps in your topic and that helped me a bit. Now I am following your topic here under “Great War Forum / Documents,Photos,Art / Document Repository / Maps”.

In your topic under “Western Front” you got a map from the 32nd division operation history. Is the square 35 (1km * 1km) here the one we both are looking for? Should this one be divided in four and the 35NE be up to the right (500m * 500m)? If I than assume that the bottom left hand corner is 0, 0 of 35NE and go 305 m east and 285 m north I should be at the position where my ancestor was temporary buried and possibly KIA?? He was killed oct 21 so possible that happened further north and he was retrieved for burial?

This is close to your position. What do you think? I still would like to see your 35NE.

Olle

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Hallo Justin,

I raised an almost identical question concerning my ancestor after I received the burial case file from NARA. You are welcome to see "Great War Forum / Other / Geographical Coordinates". "All Star Line" helped me over to the maps in your topic and that helped me a bit. Now I am following your topic here under "Great War Forum / Documents,Photos,Art / Document Repository / Maps".

In your topic under "Western Front" you got a map from the 32nd division operation history. Is the square 35 (1km * 1km) here the one we both are looking for? Should this one be divided in four and the 35NE be up to the right (500m * 500m)? If I than assume that the bottom left hand corner is 0, 0 of 35NE and go 305 m east and 285 m north I should be at the position where my ancestor was temporary buried and possibly KIA?? He was killed oct 21 so possible that happened further north and he was retrieved for burial?

This is close to your position. What do you think? I still would like to see your 35NE.

Olle

Olle,

I don't think the map included with the division history is a 35 NE map. Map Sheet 35 was made by the British, and Sheet 35 NE is a blown-up section of the overall sheet 35. The grid square 35 on the division map is in a position very far north of where I know my ancestor was killed.

Perhaps we can collaborate on this and narrow down where both our ancestors were killed. What we need in order to do this is a gridded copy of Sheet 35 NE from someone here.

Best,

Justin

EDIT: On reading your thread, I guess THIS Map Sheet 35 is of the French variety. I don't know how much help the British sheet 35 would be in our search.

Edited by JOVE23
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EDIT: On reading your thread, I guess THIS Map Sheet 35 is of the French variety. I don't know how much help the British sheet 35 would be in our search.

The British and French Sheet 35s are the exact same map (though the British prints are more commonly encountered without the grid). Just to add, in an attempt to alleviate any potential confusion ... 35 and 35NE are NOT trenchmaps.

Dave

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Hi Justin,

If Dave (Croonaert) hasn't got the exact map you want (and to say that he has more than most is an understatement :whistle: ) , forum member Wim Degrande maybe able to help if you specifically ask him what map you want. He has published on the Argonne (in Flemish). He posts under "AK16" on this forum and "Mudra" on the French one, where he responded to your intial post. Why not send him a PM ?

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Hi Justin,

If Dave (Croonaert) hasn't got the exact map you want (and to say that he has more than most is an understatement :whistle: ) , forum member Wim Degrande maybe able to help if you specifically ask him what map you want. He has published on the Argonne (in Flemish). He posts under "AK16" on this forum and "Mudra" on the French one, where he responded to your intial post. Why not send him a PM ?

Steve

Wim and I are discussing this on the French forum as you noticed, and he's gotten to the point to ask me how to read the map coordinates, but I'm ashamed to say I'm still confused on which map or maps I am actually looking for!

Best,

Justin

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I'm still confused on which map or maps I am actually looking for!

The most ideal map for your use in this situation would be the Sheet 211 'Very' map as the map reference you have for this one gives the most exact location. Next in line would be the Sheet 35NE and then Sheet 35 in that order.

Dave

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A quick update:

Using the coordinates on the 35 NE map, M. Lacorde in Gesnes has provided me with a location of my ancestor's death.

The rub is that A) It is very far north (I would assume) of the Bois de Gesnes (although in the company history there is a mention of them being out of contact of other companies), and B) the coordinates that forum user "colles" provided me regarding the location of his ancestor's burial some 16 days later which brings fears that these coordinates reference a post-battle makeshift cemetery as opposed to the actual site of his actions. I have asked M. Lacorde to examine the second set of coordinates for "colles."

Either way, here is the location for your elucidation.

001yow.th.jpg

002cxjt.th.jpg

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Regardless I am forever indebted to M. Lacorde and for Wim putting us in contact. This location, after some more digging, seems to be exactly what I was looking for! I hope M. Lacorde comes through for "colles" as well.

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  • 8 months later...

If anyone has come across Map Sheet 35NE please drop me a line. I'd like to double check M. Lacorde's work or at least do the coordinate stuff for myself so I can understand his method and get rid of any nagging doubts about the location.

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  • 3 weeks later...

The American National Archives have come through for me!

They have a copy of the Very map and were "Very" nice to send it over to me as a PDF to look over.

I will attach a link to the map here, but be warned, it is a rather big file!

---

I would like now to get some an expert opinion on where my ancestor was buried, the coordinates that reference this map are as follows:

04.3 82.4

A friend of mine has suggested a location that is 30 meters in and 40 meters below the 0,0 mark of box 4,82, but I want to get a second opinion on this assumption. As it stands, my ancestor was initially buried in the circled area according to my friend:

maxgrave.png

Can a map expert confirm this point? If so, I have further work to do on discovering aspects of Max's last battle.

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Your friend is correct.

Dave

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I would agree with that, except that his actual grave could have possibly been anywhere within a square formed by (04.3 82.4) (04.4 82.4) (04.3 82.5) (04.4 82.5) rather than a point. That is a convention I have seen followed before, but there may be others.

Phil

PS Dave posted while I was typing - he is the expert.

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Dave, I just noticed at the bottom of the archive map that the scale is 1:20,000 as opposed to the 1:10,000 map the Graves Registration Service used. I think the Very 1:10,000 map was stitched together with a few others (note the diagram on the left margin) to make the 1:20,000 map the National Archives has. Does that change the spot I should be looking for?

Here's what I'm talking about in convenient picture form:

post-54190-0-32666300-1360273280_thumb.p

Edited by JOVE23
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Justin,

The grid will remain the same. It is just that a 1:20000 map will cover four times the area of a single 1:10000 map (given the same paper area).

If you look in the top left corner you will see a layout of the four 1:10000 maps that make up yours: Very, Cuissy, Vauquois and Avacourt.

Phil

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Interesting. So the location confirmed by Dave is the location. Thanks for the help!

Now I just have to try to figure out where the German positions were that may have been responsible for Max's death.

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Justin,

The grid will remain the same. It is just that a 1:20000 map will cover four times the area of a single 1:10000 map (given the same paper area).

If you look in the top left corner you will see a layout of the four 1:10000 maps that make up yours: Very, Cuissy, Vauquois and Avacourt.

Phil

Just to add to Phil's post, the map you have is the 1:20,000 scale map entitled 'Verdun A' ('Verdun B' connected to this map to the east and showed Verdun town, Mort Homme, Cumieres and much of the 'left flank ' battlefield. This, in turn connected with 'Etain A' (Fleury, Douaumont, Vaux, etc). All of these were split into four 'standard' (ie. not including special sheets) 1:10,000 sheets such as the covetted 'Very' sheet (and, then again enlarged to 1:5000 scale, but these tended to just follow the frontline areas).

As Phil has said, the referencing system on all three scales is identical, so the same reference would show the same place on them all (though more pin-point accuracy is able on the 1:10,000 and 1:5000 sheets). The reference you have works just fine for the 1:20,000 scale however, so nothing more would be seen on the 1:10,000 scale (though a later dated version (I believe the last 'Verdun A' which would be of use was from mid-September 1918) might show a difference in defences, etc.

Dave

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I think I will take this discovery over to the Western Front sub-board to see if I can't get any more information on where the German defences may have been against Max on 5 Oct., using the primary sources I have. Thanks once again for all your help.

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