Boot minutia: dubbin, polish, puttees, socks

[Wardog]

I do not own this boot. If the person who owns it or took the picture wants it removed I will do so asap. It does though perhaps have the correct issue layout of metal work on issue. Regards Paul.

[GRANVILLE]

Cell phone photo of my unlaced and undubbed boots in case anyone wants to see:

Hi CB.

Don't overlook the overlook the fact that it will do them no harm to dubbin the soles. It might help you and anyone else considering ordering a pair of their boots if I also explain just how busy Lennon's are. Whilst I was there, I was unable to speak in person with Dan who actually makes them because he was too busy on their factory floor finishing an order. They make a wide range of industrial type boots as well as the WW1 & WW2 boots and it was explained to me that they continue to get large orders from Japan where it would appear there is a real craze for heavy duty type footwear which is seen as something as a fashion statement. Unbeknown to Dan, when he finishes the order he was working on, another 300 pairs were waiting in the wings!

On the subject of the toe plates, one aspect still concerns me which is the fact that the period style all seem to be held in place with nails. I suspect that to nail them on effectively a cobblers last would be required - not instantly to hand for most of us, whereas the later style were held on with small screws. I'm just wondering if a hybrid would be acceptable on the grounds that they could be retro fitted by anyone with a screwdriver. The shape of the plate would be as per the B5, but countersunk for screws - any thoughts?

David

[Wardog]

That and the fact that tacks/nails of the shorter length do not seem to be easy to find. I managed it on a pair of deck boots but started off the hole for each nail with a small drill. I think that might need to be done -or by using a bradel- even if screws were used. I guess even a key cutting/shoe repair shop could do the job if needed. Regards, Paul. http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=168619&st=0&p=1641022&hl=+deck%20+boots&fromsearch=1entry1641022

[Cardinal Biggles]

I apologize for the black jeans! I'm sure my puttees are tied all wrong too. I am wearing 100% wool socks under them though (ostensibly WWII style but I doubt sock technology changed much between the wars ). Still need to buy dubbin.

Laced up my boots according to this method. Step No. 17 says "You should have a uniform look all the way up. The two sides of the boot should meet in the middle like so! If there is a gap down the middle of the boot the laces are not tight enough. Or you have the wrong width boot. Cheap repro's will give you this problem."

Is that right? It wouldn't have occurred to me to pull them that tight. I had to pull hard on the laces to get them that way. I hope they're not supposed to feel that miserable. Maybe I just have thick feet. I assume they'll stretch out?

If it's useful for anyone to know, I generally wear US size 13 shoes, or US size 12 in brands that run big (such as Converse). Lennon's told me the B5's are generously sized and recommended that I order UK size 11 (which I think equates to US size 12). Seems like there is the right amount of room in the toe, but they feel extremely tight on the top ridge of my foot when laced up.

CB, my knowledge of Great War boot is only what I have picked up from this forum over the last few years. There have been threads when collectors have shown pictures of boot they have, but a number of those pictures are no longer on the forum, though I have a number saved. I would say 75% of the B5 boots shown had the arch type plates. Boots would have had a life after the war in civilian use so it is perhaps hard to say what was the issue state of the boots. The arch plates though are commonly seen in period pictures.

I have a single 1918 type toecase boot, 1919 dated, in unissued condition, and that has M type plates fitted. The arch plates shown in post 18 and in various threads are from a batch of a dozen pairs I was lucky enough to find on eBay a while back and are probably reproduction.

Regards, Paul.

I think the idea of toe plates is really cool, but I just wonder how authentic having them would actually be. Did most boots have them or not? From what you say it sounds like most boots had them (or at least most surviving boots!) but Lennon's says their boots were traditionally produced without toe plates. Is it just their brand? These questions are for anyone to answer.

Hi CB.

Don't overlook the overlook the fact that it will do them no harm to dubbin the soles. It might help you and anyone else considering ordering a pair of their boots if I also explain just how busy Lennon's are. Whilst I was there, I was unable to speak in person with Dan who actually makes them because he was too busy on their factory floor finishing an order. They make a wide range of industrial type boots as well as the WW1 & WW2 boots and it was explained to me that they continue to get large orders from Japan where it would appear there is a real craze for heavy duty type footwear which is seen as something as a fashion statement. Unbeknown to Dan, when he finishes the order he was working on, another 300 pairs were waiting in the wings!

On the subject of the toe plates, one aspect still concerns me which is the fact that the period style all seem to be held in place with nails. I suspect that to nail them on effectively a cobblers last would be required - not instantly to hand for most of us, whereas the later style were held on with small screws. I'm just wondering if a hybrid would be acceptable on the grounds that they could be retro fitted by anyone with a screwdriver. The shape of the plate would be as per the B5, but countersunk for screws - any thoughts?

David

Dubbing the soles is a good idea! Seems silly of me but I wouldn't have thought of that. Thanks for that and the further information on Lennon's. What is your relationship with the company, by the way? Just curious.

Perhaps the local cobbler would be able to affix the toe plates for me.

[Joe Sweeney]

CB,

The use of Toe Tips (Plates) was very common and I believe a feature of B5 boots which if they had Billed soles was to have a Tip and a cluster of nails at the Toe. Just from photos it seems that the use of Toe Tips early in the war was not always done.

Belwo is a selection of a few of my boots:

1918 dated "Clump sole with Toe Case", 1917 dated Field Service Boot, and 1917 dated B5's (well worn)

1916 Commercial type only approved for use in UK.

1918 dated B5's and the only pair with an M plate/tip I have.

The preferred sole on British boots was what was called a billed sole--Lots of embedded metal studs. This type of sole was not recommended by the clothing regs to be further hobnailed (although it happened). The British found that procuring suitable sole leathers for billing became more difficult as the war went on. So non billed soles fully Hobnailed became more common place. This led to some interesting meetings in July of 1918 on the what type of service should get what type of sole. The cavalry did not like the full hobbed soles they were getting so they requested that Billed soles go to mounted units and Hobbed to Dismounted. This was actually formailzed after the war in 1920 when all Billed pattern boots went to :"Mounted Services, Tank Corps and MT Drivers". In 1924 all British boots reverted back to a billed sole and the separation dissappeared again.

Joe Sweeney

[Cardinal Biggles]

Thanks for all the info and photos! It's a shame Lennon's doesn't do billed soles either. As far as I'm concerned, the more metal on my feet the better! XD

[MURAT]

Hello

another picture of 1917 dated B5 boots.

Gérald

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[Joe Sweeney]

Gerald,

Interesting soles-Billed with a mix of British and German nails (or at least what I commonly associate with German). Any evidence that the use of the German nails at the toe was to repiar where tips might have been?

Joe Sweeney

[wainfleet]

They look very like German nails, which leads me to wonder if these were captured boots worn by the Germans in the spring of 1918, which has been reported in several memoirs.

[MURAT]

Hello

I have seen,here in France, two another pairs of B5 boots,one dated 1916 and the other 1916 or 18 with the same nails.One pair came from a house in the rear front and the other is absolutly unused. My boots have a regimental number inside(A1180 in green ink).I think that only two british soldier had the(national archives): Rifleman Arthur. H. Martin 8th Bn King's Royal Rifle Corps died of wound on 3 May 1917 near Arras;or Armourer Staff Serjeant Reginald Hutchins,A/1180 ,A.O.C

I dont think these boots were captured boots,but who knows ?

Gérald

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Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[wainfleet]

Hi Gerald

Whatever the nails are, they are of the correct period, and that is a very nice pair of B5s!

Regards,

W.

[Joe Sweeney]

Gerald,

I second what Wf said--those are nice B5s

Joe Sweeney

[Wardog]

I notice the Lennon boots still have the stitching along side the eyelets going right up the boot when wartime boots only have it going part of the way up. Regards, Paul.

[Cardinal Biggles]

Laced up my boots according to this method. Step No. 17 says "You should have a uniform look all the way up. The two sides of the boot should meet in the middle like so! If there is a gap down the middle of the boot the laces are not tight enough. Or you have the wrong width boot. Cheap repro's will give you this problem."

Is that right? It wouldn't have occurred to me to pull them that tight. I had to pull hard on the laces to get them that way. I hope they're not supposed to feel that miserable. Maybe I just have thick feet. I assume they'll stretch out?

If it's useful for anyone to know, I generally wear US size 13 shoes, or US size 12 in brands that run big (such as Converse). Lennon's told me the B5's are generously sized and recommended that I order UK size 11 (which I think equates to US size 12). Seems like there is the right amount of room in the toe, but they feel extremely tight on the top ridge of my foot when laced up.

William Lennon's e-mailed me back saying that the boots are not supposed to lace so tightly when new, as the leather does stretch.

I've dubbed my boots. I did the laces too so they lace more smoothly now. Chelsea dubbin seems to work well.

In case it interests anyone, I dubbed my map case as well and it also looks much nicer and feels much softer.

[GRANVILLE]

HI CG.

Some very interesting reads in this thread. Lennon's are perfectly correct in telling you not to lace them as tightly as this approach to wearing a pair of boots was never intended as there is a potential for restricting the circulation within the foot and doing nothing but harm. SO long as the quarters are laced sensibly together, they will do their job of keeping bits of grit etc from getting into the boots interior, which is exactly what Puttees are all about - keeping unwanted material from getting into the top of the boot whilst at the same time preventing creepy crawlies from getting up the trouser legs when crawling about in undergrowth.

Somewhere above you ask what is my connection with Lennon’s. On a commercial front - nothing, but they are a company close to where I live and during my 30yr career in the police they kept me in boots which is how I came to know all about them. When it became clear that B5's could no longer be sourced I approached them a few years ago and was astounded to find they still had all they needed to make these boots once again - the company originally made them during WW1, so they do know a good deal about them even if the staff who made them first time round are no longer with them!

When they say they did not make them with toe plates first time round, I think we need to respect that, but if they can get a supply or repos they would use them and this is still being investigated.

On the subject of 'billing'. Lennon’s are able to 'bill' a sole and indeed have one of the last surviving machines in the country which will enable this process and later today I'll dig out a photo of the machine and post it. I believe the reason they don't do this as a matter of course is because they didn't do it this way originally (as far as they are aware) and also because it is a time consuming and costly process which would only add to the high cost of producing the boots. The machine takes a spool of brass wire which has a screw thread run along its length and it fires the thread through the sole, cutting it off to length in one lightning fast action, and a bit like a machine gun the operator works his way up and down the sole until it is suitably lined.

Here is a photo of the machine in question. It's not very clear how it all works but the spool of brass wire/screw thread can be seen at the top of it.

Hope you find this as interesting as I obviously do!

Dave Upton

Have tried to upload a picture - done so plenty of times in the past, but since the upgrade the site keeps telling me the picture file is too large despite the fact I've reduced it in size several times. Any ideas why this is happening?

[Cardinal Biggles]

Thanks for all the info! I'd be very interested to see the picture of the billing machine if you can get that to show. Do you know if Lennon's bill any of their other boots?

[GRANVILLE]

I would post the photo if the system would allow me??! I don't know what has happened since the forum upgrade, but I now find I can't get anything to upload on the grounds the file is too large, which it clearly can't be because I'm able to post it elsewhere and I can't reduce the image any smaller if I wanted to.

Is anyone else having a similar problem?

Concerning the billing machine, they do use it from time to time as far as I know, but I suspect it’s to special order only? Some of the companies best selling boots go to professional tug of war teams, so the boots are seriously well made and I imagine this is when billing might be done? The action of 'billing' is a means by which the layers of leather forming the sole are literally screwed together via this screw threaded brass wire, in addition to the stitching which is run around the outer edge in the normal way.

David

[GRANVILLE]

After a quick lesson on file resizing by forum member Chris, here at last is an image of the Lennon's billing machine. The spool of threaded brass can clearly be seen.

Dave

[hatrick]

Here are a few pictures of the Lennon B5 boots I got earlier this year. I special ordered mine with an extra half sole (clump sole) and did my own hobnailing and put on the toe plates (a special thanks to Wardog and a couple of other forum members in helping me get a couple sets of M-Type toe plates). I walked about 20-25 miles in them before I used them in my last WWI reenactment and they were a bit tight across the top of the foot for the fist 5-6 miles but then they just fit great. For the first few times out you definitely have to lace them loosely over the top of your foot but eventually you can start lacing them tighter and tighter.

If you have a cobblers last, it isn't that hard to install your own toe plates and hobnails. I think it is great that Dave and Paul have been working on getting the WWI toe plates made up again. I know that they would be a lot of interested buyers in my WWI reenacting group if they ever get into production. For authenticity sake, I would have the WWI plates made up to be nailed on and not screwed on. I had to file down some heel iron nails to put on mine but I think it is well worth the extra effort.

For the leather, I recommend Pecards Antique Leather Dressing (www.pecard.com). Don't use neatsfoot oil as it will eventually rot the stitching and threads. I use a light coating on the sole after I do the uppers just to keep the sole leather from drying out and cracking.

Eric

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[GRANVILLE]

Cracking pair of boots Eric, they should last you a life time!

On the toe plate front I've recently managed to find the time to look at this ongoing project. Wm Lennons have said they will supply B5's with toe plates - if they can find a supplier, because the company they use for other boot metal does not make an authentic type at the moment. I've now liaised with the company and they confirm they may be prepared to produce repros if they can have a drawing to work to. I've offered to sort this out for them and using photos and measurements I've been supplied, here are a couple of examples I've asked them to consider. At this stage these are just 1-1 scale cardboard cut-outs placed over card board cutout sole's as supplied by Lennon's. Their range goes from 7 - 12 and here you see a size 12 (the M Pattern) and a size 7, so its my belief we might just get away with one size for the entire range furthermore these two patterns are not left or right handed as some others are, this greatly helps keep costs down. At the moment I'm waiting to hear from the casting company to see how much if any more info: they need to proceed. Comments gratefully rec'ed.

Dave Upton

[hatrick]

Dave,

The plates on my boots were size 3 1/4 which are the largest I think them M-Type plates come in. I have a PDF template of the size 3 14" plates if you need it that is very accurate.

Eric

[GRANVILLE]

Thanks Eric a copy of that would be good if you can post it please. 3 1/4" is perhaps what these ought to be - currently coming out at nearer 3 1/2", so perhaps a slight scaling down is in order. Appreciated. Dave

[martin_sole]

I'm always a bit surprised ar the different and sometimes contradictory advice you get on leather care by people in the boot industry. I think I've heard pretty much every variation now:

Neatsfoot oil should / should not be used

Dubbin should be applied sparingly / lavishly

Soles should / should not be treated

Synthetic dubbin is better / inferior to the natural stuff

[hatrick]

Dave,

Attached is my PDF template of the M-Type Toe Plates.

Please note that this template has the toe plates re-sized to 3 3/8" wide so it would fit the toe of my size 10 (US) / 9 (UK) Lennon boots perfectly.

Eric

WWI_Toe_Plate_Template.pdf

[daggers]

Eric's boots must weigh a ton! When did the official pattern of studs, 4433, start, as found early 1950s?