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Remembered Today:

Boot minutia: dubbin, polish, puttees, socks


Cardinal Biggles

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My William Lennon B5 boots are in the mail! biggrin.gif

I live in Florida so when the boots arrive I will take them out hiking in the Everglades in wet season to break them in.

A swamp walk in knee-high mud should be a nice test of trenchlike conditions.

1) From what I've read, boots for trench use were to be left brown, not polished, and simply waterproofed/dubbin'd. Is this correct?

2) What is the historically accurate and/or best method of waterproofing? Any good brands or other advice? I've been looking at Chelsea dubbin and this stuff from Great War Militaria. Thoughts?

3) While I'm at it, was polish or dubbin ever used on anything besides boots? I've got a repro leather US map case that developed a little bit of mold which had to be scraped off. Might look nicer a bit darker too.

4) I'd like to get some repro puttees to keep the mud out as well. Who has the best? Thinking about these repro Fox's.

5) And maybe some socks?

Thanks, and sorry for all the silly questions!

P.S. The B5's apparently ship with toe plates (not just heel plates) as standard now, which I'd read was not the case before. Maybe this is a recent development. Thought you might like to know.

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My William Lennon B5 boots are in the mail! biggrin.gif

I live in Florida so when the boots arrive I will take them out hiking in the Everglades in wet season to break them in.

A swamp walk in knee-high mud should be a nice test of trenchlike conditions.

1) From what I've read, boots for trench use were to be left brown, not polished, and simply waterproofed/dubbin'd. Is this correct?

2) What is the historically accurate and/or best method of waterproofing? Any good brands or other advice? I've been looking at Chelsea dubbin and this stuff from Great War Militaria. Thoughts?

3) While I'm at it, was polish or dubbin ever used on anything besides boots? I've got a repro leather US map case that developed a little bit of mold which had to be scraped off. Might look nicer a bit darker too.

4) I'd like to get some repro puttees to keep the mud out as well. Who has the best? Thinking about these repro Fox's.

5) And maybe some socks?

Thanks, and sorry for all the silly questions!

P.S. The B5's apparently ship with toe plates (not just heel plates) as standard now, which I'd read was not the case before. Maybe this is a recent development. Thought you might like to know.

My understanding is that one pair were left brown and dubbined for the field and the other pair blackened and polished for parades. That would fit well with my personal experience of British Army culture and practice. I will leave it to others to recommend a proprietary brand of dubbin and reproduction puttees,other than to say that Fox's are the original maker and still in existence.

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Pre-war soldiers were issued with two pairs of brown reversed leather boots. One pair had to have the surface buffed down and was then polished black for wear with the best (parade) uniform - although not a gleaming shine - shiny boots do not arrive until inter-war. The other pair were dubbined to make them waterproof and they were used for everything else. In wartime there was no need for a second pair of (black) boots - and no means of carrying them either - so, on active service, only one pair of boots were issued - usually brown and always dubbinned. The culture and practice of the Victorian and Edwardian British Army bears virtually no resemblance to the modern British Army; no shiny boots, no pressed and creased uniforms, etc. Most of that arrives between the wars and is taken to extremes in the 1950s.

Fox are still in existence but, sadly, don't have the means to make puttees any longer...

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Pre-war soldiers were issued with two pairs of brown reversed leather boots. One pair had to have the surface buffed down and was then polished black for wear with the best (parade) uniform - although not a gleaming shine - shiny boots do not arrive until inter-war. The other pair were dubbined to make them waterproof and they were used for everything else. In wartime there was no need for a second pair of (black) boots - and no means of carrying them either - so, on active service, only one pair of boots were issued - usually brown and always dubbinned. The culture and practice of the Victorian and Edwardian British Army bears virtually no resemblance to the modern British Army; no shiny boots, no pressed and creased uniforms, etc. Most of that arrives between the wars and is taken to extremes in the 1950s.

Fox are still in existence but, sadly, don't have the means to make puttees any longer...

'

With respect, my first sentence is pretty much replicated by yours and if I gave the impression that I was suggesting that today's Army was 'the same' as that of WW1 and before, that was not my intent. I am well aware of the differences, having studied them for over 40-years. What I can also say is that the 'culture and practice' that I experienced in the late 60s and early 1970s, had many (but not all) similarities with that of the period leading up to WW1, as I have explained in some detail in the Victorian Wars Forum. The changes being brought about by the salaried, professional soldier had yet to be fully assimilated and much of the day-to-day routine was very close indeed to that of 70 years before. Since then the changes have been continuous and profound and there is very little indeed left of those 'old ways'. I had experienced the end of an era and the beginning of a new one.

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Your respect is appreciated. I didn't disagree with your first sentence, for the benefit of CB who asked the question I simply added the important detail that a pair for polishing was not issued to the majority of Great War soldiers who had no need for them.

Again, I am not disagreeing with your later comments either but it is very clear that a modern soldier would expect to have his boots gleaming, and have knife-edge creases in his trousers, before parading; something which would be alien to most Great War, and pre-Great War soldiers - a very major difference which many modern students of the British Army of those times also often fail to realise and, after all, why should they?

You are right about the end of the era. So many changes in such a relatively short time...

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Your respect is appreciated. I didn't disagree with your first sentence, for the benefit of CB who asked the question I simply added the important detail that a pair for polishing was not issued to the majority of Great War soldiers who had no need for them.

Again, I am not disagreeing with your later comments either but it is very clear that a modern soldier would expect to have his boots gleaming, and have knife-edge creases in his trousers, before parading; something which would be alien to most Great War, and pre-Great War soldiers - a very major difference which many modern students of the British Army of those times also often fail to realise and, after all, why should they?

You are right about the end of the era. So many changes in such a relatively short time...

My experience of the 'old ways' was exacerbated by the fact that I had enlisted in one of the most conservative regiments in the British infantry (e.g. our dress for the range was "Musketry Order"). It was when I read Old Soldier Sahib (by Frank Richards) that I first realised just how little my regiment had changed. Ian Hay's The First Hundred Thousand also shocked me by outlining a routine and culture with which I was entirely familiar, despite the fact that it had been written some 50-years before.

By comparison today's Army would be unrecognisable, with the computer, internet and digital age, heralding the most profound changes since the invention of the internal combustion engine.

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I'm sure that is all true but it still does not alter my original point that Victorian, Edwardian and Great War soldiers did not press creases in their uniforms or bull their boots to a gleaming shine. That comes later and is, of course, still deeply ingrained. My reply was not about any other aspect of the men's service or lives; just the bit which directly relates to CB's post! We don't even need to agree to differ as I don't think we do differ on that point. I'm not sure how this seems to have wandered off!

You are right about the technology. I can remember Donald Hodge, the RWK veteran, saying to me what a difference it would have made if he had owned a mobile phone to communicate during the Battle of the Somme!

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I'm sure that is all true but it still does not alter my original point that Victorian, Edwardian and Great War soldiers did not press creases in their uniforms or bull their boots to a gleaming shine. That comes later and is, of course, still deeply ingrained. My reply was not about any other aspect of the men's service or lives; just the bit which directly relates to CB's post! We don't even need to agree to differ as I don't think we do differ on that point. I'm not sure how this seems to have wandered off!

You are right about the technology. I can remember Donald Hodge, the RWK veteran, saying to me what a difference it would have made if he had owned a mobile phone to communicate during the Battle of the Somme!

I agree, the thread has wandered off - and we do not differ on the point regarding boots and trousers.

You gave the impression (whether intentionally or not) that I had suggested boots were highly shined 'as per modern practice' by seemingly rubbishing my comment about "culture and practice". I do not think that I either implied or inferred that boots were the same. Furthermore, until the turn of the century, the culture and practices were still remarkably similar, as I can testify from personal experience (in 4 different Arms of the service, which gave a broad persective).

Hopefully, CB will get the general points that he sought from the replies that he has received. At least we have taken the time to do so.

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CB.

Get yourself some good quality hiking socks, slap a load of dubbin all over them (frankly any reputable brand will do), get yourself some of the Puttees you've identified, figure how to bind them properly and then head off into the wild for a good long walk; the boots will need one to break them in. Be cautious on solid tarmac roads or you'll go over on the hob nails. All the best,

Dave Upton

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Hello Dave- sounds like you managed to get the manufacture of the correct toe plates off the ground. Well done for seeing it through. Regards, Paul. (Not sure I like the sound of socks covered in dubbin! :thumbsup:)

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Hello Dave- sounds like you managed to get the manufacture of the correct toe plates off the ground. Well done for seeing it through. Regards, Paul. (Not sure I like the sound of socks covered in dubbin! :thumbsup:)

Paul, you surprise me with your background for not being aware that the best way to waterproof the socks is to cover them in dubbin too!!!!!!!!!!!

Not sure I can take too much credit with the toe plates as all I did was back and forth emails on the subject.

DU

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Very effective on sevice dress as well but the larger tins are never found...Cheers, Paul.(don't try this at home- job for the dubbin wallah.)

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Paul, you surprise me with your background for not being aware that the best way to waterproof the socks is to cover them in dubbin too!!!!!!!!!!!

Not sure I can take too much credit with the toe plates as all I did was back and forth emails on the subject.

DU

This was humour, but the notion of a squaddie smeared from head to toe in dubbin does conjure an interesting image. Otherwise known as a slippery customer?

DU

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The post war (WW2) era obsession with bull was partly due to continued conscription. It was all part of the breaking in procedure for two year soldiers. One warning about dubbin which is purely anecdotal. When I was in TA in 50s, we dubbined our boots for schemes but were instructed to clean it off afterwards and simply polish with the old Cherry Blossom. We were told that dubbin was very good for the leather but rotted thread. Now, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that that was simply a make work or even just an old soldiers tale but I pass it on for what it is worth. I should think that modern thread is synthetic so probably not susceptible anyway. I shudder to think what dubbined socks will feel like. New recruits with new socks and new boots were advised to soap their feet. Another tip which I continued throughout years of hillwalking was two pairs of socks. One can buy sets. One pair light and one pair thick wooly. Change the thin ones daily and the outer pair can last for days.

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As B5s were/are made rough side out probably not much dubbin would be left on the surface to remove. With regards to stitching, I thought it was saddle soap of neatsfoot oil that did that? Seen it on the forum, unable to remember which.

To break boots in I used to fill them up with warm water (not hot), empty them after a few seconds then put them on without socks, lace them as tight as I could stand (Don't use leather laces for this, they could break), and keep them on around the block or house for as long as I could. Then take them off, let them dry away from sun or heat. If my feet had recovered after a few hours and the boots were still damp I would have put them on again and worn them a bit more.

Regards, Paul.

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CB- interested to see your pictures of your boots when you get them-inc. pictures of the soles and the new toe plates. Dave- where are Lennons obtaining the shorter nail tacs for the toe plates? Cheers, Paul.

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OK, good news & bad news. The bad news is that unfortunately Lennons are NOT supplying their B5's with toe plates. I called on them earlier today and it transpires that somehow a wrong photo was sent to their customer showing the sole of one of their WW2 pattern ammo boots, which do have toe plates fitted.

The good news is that Lennon’s confirm that if their supplier could produce an authentic toe plate then they would certainly fit them on request. This is not particularly news in that the recognised manufacturer has already had this idea run past them some time ago. However, it’s now being said that if they could have a scale drawing of the toe plate type required, then they are very receptive to making things happen, in the knowledge that Lennon’s are just as keen to have them.

I've offered to undertake this for them and Lennon’s have supplied me with seven cardboard templates of the B5 in their size range of 6-12. I've taken this photo to illustrate for anyone none too familiar, just how squared off the toe is on the B5 pattern.

I also discussed with them the subject of dubbin and indeed they confirm that they actually advise their boots are protected with it. What they don't recommend however is that you go berserk and saturate the boots in the stuff for prolonged periods. This is because the B5 is made of reversed leather - 'rough out' as it’s often referred to. This means that the very fabric of the leather is much more receptive to the likes of dubbin and overly impregnating the leather will actually have an adverse effect on it, potentially encouraging the fabric of the leather to begin to disintegrate. On the subject of dubbin attacking the sticking, they say there is no known risk as far as they are aware - the thread being far superior to that used during the war.

What they have admitted is that they do not know why the 'rough-out' leather was used in the first place - can anyone shed any light?

Hope this clears a few things up.

David Upton

post-23614-0-50799400-1335538630.jpg

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Hi Paul Wardog,

Tried to PM you but your inbox must be full.

Can you remind me which of the three types you were suggesting ought to be remade - I admit I've forgotten along the way.

David Upton

post-23614-0-78871600-1335547387.jpg

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Top pair David would be most common through the war I should think. Very top one shows the outside with indents for tack heads. Second one down is the underside. Probably reproductions.

Middle pair possibly 1918 type reproductions.

Bottom ones WWII to the present day. Let me know if you need any measurements, I could draw round a pair of the ones I have and send a scan with measurements. Regards, Paul.

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Cheers Paul, I think I can go with what you already sent thanks.

David

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All the advice and interest is much appreciated! :)

Yes, sad to say that my boots arrived without toe plates despite being told multiple times that they would have them, and no real explanation for the confusion given. I've learned more about the situation from Granville's post than from e-mail with the shoemakers. Wondering if they would send me some to put on myself if they do start making them.

Does anyone have any general information on toe plates in the Great War? How common were they and at what point were they put on the boot (by manufacturer or soldier)?

Lennon assures me that "Traditionally they were not produced with the toe-plate, and our boots try to be as authentic as possible to the original boots from the Great War."

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Granville

I happen to have two sizes of 'M' type toe plates 3 1/8 and2 3/4 [scrounged when i got a pair for for a lad in the states, thought they might come in handy] If you PM me with your address iI will give you a lend of them as samples.

Regards

John

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CB, my knowledge of Great War boot is only what I have picked up from this forum over the last few years. There have been threads when collectors have shown pictures of boot they have, but a number of those pictures are no longer on the forum, though I have a number saved. I would say 75% of the B5 boots shown had the arch type plates. Boots would have had a life after the war in civilian use so it is perhaps hard to say what was the issue state of the boots. The arch plates though are commonly seen in period pictures.

I have a single 1918 type toecase boot, 1919 dated, in unissued condition, and that has M type plates fitted. The arch plates shown in post 18 and in various threads are from a batch of a dozen pairs I was lucky enough to find on eBay a while back and are probably reproduction.

Regards, Paul.

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