WW1 Military Motors - 1916 set x 50 cards

[Lancashire Fusilier]

10 minutes ago, Knotty said:

LF

What can I say, except many thanks for finding out the id of the tractor in such a short time.

 Let's hope that the FIAT wasn't a Friday afternoon job like we had once

Regards

John

 

John,

 

Pleased to help, the Fiat 70 hp was quite a beast with plenty of towing power.

 

Regards,

LF

[Knotty]

LF

At least it looks to have something going for it, a few years ago wifey bought a demo Stillo, in 8 months it required 3 gearboxes, 3 clutch assemblies,(don't ask) one new radiator and well as developing numerous electrical issues.

 

John

[Lancashire Fusilier]

9 minutes ago, Knotty said:

LF

At least it looks to have something going for it, a few years ago wifey bought a demo Stillo, in 8 months it required 3 gearboxes, 3 clutch assemblies,(don't ask) one new radiator and well as developing numerous electrical issues.

 

John

 

Ouch!

Sounds like the 70 hp would have been a better option.

 

Regards,

LF

[Rockdoc]

Would it be safe to assume that the wheels not using mud-flaps belonged to the gun's limber in both photos? I'd guess that the weight being carried by that axle was much less than the by those of the lorry or gun so adaptations were not needed?

 

Keith

[Lancashire Fusilier]

On 8/23/2016 at 08:12, Rockdoc said:

Would it be safe to assume that the wheels not using mud-flaps belonged to the gun's limber in both photos? I'd guess that the weight being carried by that axle was much less than the by those of the lorry or gun so adaptations were not needed?

 

Keith

 

Keith,

 

I agree, as seen in post #5373, the first 2 wheels on the left belong to the gun and the next 2 wheels belong to the Fiat 70.

 

Here is an excellent photograph of an Italian Artillery column led by a Fiat Type 30 Artillery Tractor hauling a massive Italian gun, making it's way through the Piave Valley in the Cadore region of Northern Italy.

I am sure I recall you visiting the Piave Valley fairly recently ?

Note the Fiat 30 in this photograph is not fitted with mud-wheels, whereas the gun's carriage is.

 

Regards,

LF

 

 

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

Edited 25 August , 2016 by Lancashire Fusilier

[johnboy]

Any idea what the 'hopper' thing just in front of the rear wheel is? 

[Lancashire Fusilier]

In this photograph, showing a joint RIC/Black & Tans raid on the village of Thurles in N. Tipperary County, Ireland, during a search for illegal arms and explosives, the convoy of RIC and Black & Tans Crossley vehicles, includes Crossley 20/25 Tenders fitted with the new side and front light armour and the protective metal wire roof cages.

 

LF

 

 

 This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

Edited 23 August , 2016 by Lancashire Fusilier

[Lancashire Fusilier]

On 8/23/2016 at 09:32, johnboy said:

Any idea what the 'hopper' thing just in front of the rear wheel is? 

 

johnboy,

 

This very interesting and rare photograph shows a Fiat 70 hp Artillery Tractor destroyed and captured by German Forces in the area of Plezzo ( Italian ) / Flitsch ( German ) in what is now the modern day border area between N.E. Italy and N.W. Slovenia, which during WW1 was the scene of very heavy fighting during the Battle of Corporetto fought during October/November 1917 between the Italians and the Germans and their Allies.

 

Regards,

LF

 

 

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

Edited 25 August , 2016 by Lancashire Fusilier

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Here is a nicely detailed side-view of an Italian Army Fiat 70 hp Artillery Tractor in action hauling artillery during the Battle of Isonzo, which was fought between June 1915 to November 1917, in the Isonzo region of Northern Italy along Italy's N.E. border with N.W. Slovenia, with the Italians fighting both the Germans and the Austro-Hungarians.

 

Regards,

LF

 

 

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

 

 

[johnboy]

The 'hopper' is shown above but it seems to be away from the drive chain. It looks as if something went in the top and it came out in front of the rear wheel?

[Lancashire Fusilier]

3 hours ago, johnboy said:

The 'hopper' is shown above but it seems to be away from the drive chain. It looks as if something went in the top and it came out in front of the rear wheel?

 

johnboy,

 

Looking at the photographs, personally, I still can only think it was access for maintenance and or lubrication.

 

Regards,

LF

[johnboy]

In post#5373 it looks to have writing on it. Compared to the pic you posted of a wrecked one there does not seem to be anything behind it. It still looks to me that something went into the top chute and camenout at the bottom 'funnel'?

 

It's just bugging me!

Edited 24 August , 2016 by johnboy

[Knotty]

johnboy

Could it be a version of the sandbox as used on a steam engine, but using something like gravel for use on muddy surfaces?

 

John

[johnboy]

That would be a possibility. I had thought something similar but the size looks too small? 

[Lancashire Fusilier]

After studying additional photographs of other WW1 Fiat Artillery Tractors, which I shall be posting, I needed to make a correction to post # 5380, which shows a Fiat Type 30 Artillery Tractor, and not a Fiat 70. That post has now been edited.

 

Also post # 5384 needed to be corrected based on new information I have discovered, which will also be the subject of a review of the Fiat Artillery Tractors I shall be posting, that post has also been edited.

 

LF

 

[Lancashire Fusilier]

WW1 Fiat Artillery Tractors Types 70 - 30 - 20 mud/snow tracks storage troughs 

 

Having studied several additional WW1 Fiat Artillery Tractor photographs and knowing that the WW1 Fiat Lorries all had substantial rear-wheel chain drives, I was intrigued as to the real purpose and use for the elongated piece of equipment attached to both sides of the Fiat 70's bodywork and mounted over the rear-wheels.

 

I am now of the firm opinion that it does not contain the chain drive for the Fiat 70's rear-wheels, but is rather the storage trough for the special mud/snow tracks which were fitted to the Fiat Artillery Tractor's rear-wheels depending on the climatic season and or the terrain encountered on the Italian Front, and those conditions would have certainly included months of snow and mud.

Whereas during the Italian Summer's dry months, when the mud/snow tracks would not have been used and were removed from the rear-wheels, laid flat, and stored in those specially designed elongated storage troughs mounted over the Fiat 70's rear wheels.

 

My initial clue was the photograph in post #5374, which shows the special mud/snow tracks fitted to the Fiat 70's real wheels, and the track's storage trough mounted over the real wheels is empty.

Whereas in post # 5380, which shows a Fiat Type 30 Artillery Tractor on a dry mountain road, with it's rear-wheels not fitted with the mud/snow tracks, those special tracks are seen stored back in the special troughs mounted over the rear-wheels.

 

Again, using post #5374, if you roughly measure the length of the trough mounted over the rear-wheels it's length is equal to the circumference of the Fiat 70's rear-wheel.

 

And again based on photographs of other Fiat Artillery Tractors namely the Types 30 and 20 I have reviewed, which I shall be posting, that track storage system was common to all the different models of Fiat Military Tractors used on the Italian Front during WW1 by the Italian Army, including the Fiat Types 70, 30 and 20.

 

Bearing in mind the substantial size of the Fiat Artillery Tractor's rear-wheels, those special mud/snow wheel tracks would have been extremely heavy and difficult to store when not in use, so it certainly made sense that when they were not fitted to the rear-wheels, to lay them flat and store them in the specially designed and constructed storage troughs. The detailed photographs I have reviewed, also show that a series of clamps were attached to the track's storage trough to keep the track firmly in place when stowed.

 

Additionally, and again based on the photographs I have reviewed, the sheer size, length and heavy weight of those special wheel tracks would have made them extremely difficult to man-handle both during their removal from or fitting to the rear-wheels, and for that purpose, it appears that a small winch, hand-cranked on some models and mechanical on others, was incorporated in the storage troughs mounted over the Artillery Tractors rear-wheels, and that winch was used both to remove the special tracks from the storage trough, and that winch also greatly assisting in fitting those heavy tracks onto the rear-wheels, and likewise that winch would have also greatly assisted in pulling those heavy tracks off the rear-wheels and pulling them back up and onto their storage trough mounted over the rear-wheels when not in use.

 

I shall be posting a series of photographs explaining my findings.

 

The first photograph from post #5374 shows the empty storage trough, and also gives an idea of the length of the storage trough compared to the circumference of the rear wheel.

 

LF

 

 

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

 

 

 

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Detailed photograph showing the mud/snow track's storage trough fitted on a Fiat Type 20 Artillery Tractor.

 

LF

 

 

 

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Detailed photograph showing the mud/snow track's storage trough fitted on a Fiat Type 30 Artillery Tractor.

 

LF

 

 

 

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Knotty]

On 22 August 2016 at 17:30, Knotty said:

 

 

Good Afternoon LF

Sage of all transport items,.....

 

 

Was I right or was I right? A good bit of detective work.

 

John

[Lancashire Fusilier]

7 minutes ago, Knotty said:

 

Was I right or was I right? A good bit of detective work.

 

John

 

John,

 

I got it wrong first time, thinking it was part of the Fiat Artillery Tractor's rear-wheel chain drive, however, I was never convinced and continuing research showed otherwise.

 

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

This photograph shows a convoy of Italian Army Fiat Type 30 Artillery Tractors hauling heavy artillery, and with the dry road conditions, the mud/snow wheel tracks are not required, and the redundant tracks can clearly be seen stowed in their storage trough mounted over the rear-wheels.

 

LF

 

 

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Rockdoc]

On 23/08/2016 at 13:53, Lancashire Fusilier said:

I am sure I recall you visiting the Piave Valley fairly recently ?

Note the Fiat 30 in this photograph is not fitted with mud-wheels, whereas the gun's carriage is.

 

 

We visited the Asiago plateau. Although none of my relatives fought there, my Grandfather would have if he'd remained in 7th Division.

 

This looks to be a very heavy gun so the pressure on the road surface from each wheel would be pretty high. I would guess that the mud-wheels are being used to protect weak areas of road. I'd hate to have to try and get that thing back on an even keel if it broke through the surface. The Fiat might be light enough that this isn't a consideration at what appears to be a period of good weather.

 

Keith

[Rockdoc]

On 23/08/2016 at 17:44, Lancashire Fusilier said:

 

With my mining-engineering hat on, I'm interested by the stuff to the right of the damaged vehicle. I think this site must have been a mine or quarry pre-War because the cylindrical device is a mobile rotary screen. You can see three areas of differently-sized mesh and a wheel under the frame behind the crate. The material from the pit would be fed onto the tray above the drum, moved - perhaps by vibration or perhaps by hand - into a hopper at the end with the smallest mesh and the slight slope would move it along towards the coarser mesh as the drum rotated, taking three size ranges out. Any oversized material would drop out of the open end. I think there's an electric motor and gearbox at the far right centre, sitting on the frame behind the screen assembly above a barrel. Mineral preparation and handling isn't my field so I can only offer pretty general guesses, I'm afraid.

 

Keith

[Lancashire Fusilier]

20 hours ago, Rockdoc said:

 

With my mining-engineering hat on, I'm interested by the stuff to the right of the damaged vehicle. I think this site must have been a mine or quarry pre-War because the cylindrical device is a mobile rotary screen.

 

Keith,

 

Many thanks for the interesting information, I had been puzzled by that equipment, and was still trying to work out what it could have been !

 

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

We had previously seen examples of Crossley 20/25 Tenders used in Ireland, having been converted by the fitting of light armour plating to the Crossley's sides and front and the also the fitting of a wire roof cage to protect the Crossley's occupants against dangerous missiles being thrown into the Crossley.

In the two attached interesting period newspaper photographs, we can see can that in addition to the Crossley 20/25 Tender being armoured, the Crossley 15 hp. with it's distinctive ' V ' shaped radiator grille was also armoured and deployed in Ireland. The Crossley 15 hp chassis had been previously photographed being used both as an Ambulance and a Staff Car, and these two photographs are the first I have seen showing the Crossley 15 hp chassis being used as a Tender.

The newspaper refers to the Crossley's wire roof cage as being a " Hencoop ", which is perhaps a apt description.

The two photographs show the armoured Crossley 15 hp Tenders carrying joint RIC/Black & Tans on the streets of Belfast, with the Crossley's number plate letters ' OI. 8856 & OI. 8863 ' being for Belfast vehicle registrations.

 

LF

 

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.