Gallipoli Map Overlays -3D

[Guest]

However the problem is ESRI charge an atm and a leg and I don't know abouot ESRI allowing use on the web.

Hi Hendo - what is an arm and a leg in $ terms? MG

[Guest]

Underlying high resolution digital data is going to be pretty well impossible to obtain, if my experience over the past year has been any indication. I had been working on a PhD on dynamically modelling the effects of microterrain on troop movements with Gallipoli as my study site. I was going to run my models at multiple resolutions, the coarsest being 1:5000 so that I could compare it to the Mehmet Sevki Pasa maps. My doctorate is currently on hold due a variety of personal, family and financial reasons, but I have pretty well given up on Gallipoli anyway because I can't get that high resolution data.

I've tried the MOD, GeoEye, TARA, various forums and professional contacts, USGS, Istanbul Techincal University, and Canakkale Onsekiz Mart University. Monoscopic imagery at a 1m resolution is available from GeoEye, but stereo imagery (except 30m SRTM data), aerial photography, modern terrain data, Lidar - none of it exists (or so I'm told). I've heard of a project building terrain models from RAF photos of the Western Front, but so far as I know there isn't enough imagery of Gallipoli, being too early in the war. The Turkish government won't allow the collection of your own terrain data (I had been thinking of using a terrestrial lidar scanner at Kiretch Tepe), and rarely even allows Turkish academics to use what data they do have.

Would love to be proven wrong, however.

-Angela

(not sure if my signature has my old email on it, etc, so:

Angela Cunningham, MSc-R, BA, PFRGS

PhD student

Department of Geography, Geology and the Environment

Kingston University London

a.r.cunningham@ed-alumni.net

Angela... thanks for this. Nothing is impossible. The data is there, we just need to work out how to get this.... I would love to pick your brains on what routes you have explored and all the technical aspects. Also curious to know how and why the routes you explored came to nothing..is is because they don't have the data or is it because the don't want to release the data or is is money? Very curious to know. I know in my mind what I want but I don't know what the technical terms are for what I call a 'digital grid'....any pointers welcome.

Others thoughts on routes and potential cooperation;

1. I am thinking the Ambassador to Turkey might be a starting point for cracking the Turkish route.

2. AWM - they seem to be the most technically advanced of the archives. Miles ahead of the Brits.

3. IWM - but my experience getting research has been disappointing to say the least

4. NAM - never in a million years. They still use a card index.

5. Universities - any ideas on who might be interested in getting involved? [Trajan's suggestions of Glasgow and Bristol noted. Thanks]

On a separate issue have you seen the 1:10,000 British maps held (in part) at the TNA? If your thesis is looking at the impact of terrain on troop movements they might prove useful. The Scimitar Hill area (site of the single largest battle on 21st/22nd Aug 1915) has a contoured version and trench maps over three dates but importantly has every field boundary drawn, orchards, tracks etc - these boundaries (hedges, ditches, deres etc) definitely chanelled troops away from their intended bearings as the diaries and accounts will testify, especially the 11th Div's attack at Hetman Chair from Tint's Corner.... Also these maps can be easily compared to the Sevki set. I have had high res digital copies made by TNA and have them as overlays on GE too..and can have Sevki and Brit maps laid over each other faded in and out..... There are also a few slightly larger-scale maps of W Hill and Hill 112, Chocolate hill with the same. (220 yards to 1 inch ..so 1:7,920). Amazing detail and I think as good as it gets in terms of contemporary maps. Of greater fascination is the fact that 80-90% of the field boundaries have not changed and it is very easy to get exact historical fixes with the modern terrain. It certainly helped me understand the 21st August better than any narrative could. The fact that the terrain in this area is almost unchanged makes the research so much easier. An excellent laboratory for your kind of approach. I assume you are familiar with the book "Grasping Gallipoli" by Chasseaud and Doyle.

MG

'Mens Agitat Molem'

[Sly]

HI,

I have just discovered these fascinating 3D maps, you did a great job !

I was wondering if there is a chance to get the French sector as well (from Seddul-Bahr to the Kereves Dere) ?

Thanks again for posting,

Regards

Sly

[Gully Ravine]

I have previously contacted Google to see if they would be interested in helping with mapping as part of the 100y anniversary. No reply apart from the 'standard one' - so taking it as not interested!

Keith

[Smithmaps]

An interesting thread, and an impressive piece of work.

With regard to LinesMan and Memory-Map. I have already geo referenced the entire Sevki Pasha series, as a beta product, and it has been succesfully tested with GPS on hand held devices in the field over several seasons with good results in terms of accuracy.

Currently though we have no terrain data either, which is a problem, though I am sure not insurmountable.

Biggest problem we have, is that despite there being a lot of enthusiasm here, the keen voices are a limited and passionate few, and we currently do not believe there are enough potential sales to allow the project to pay for its production, let alone bring in a meagre sheckle. In other words, we feel that currently we would likely spend a lot of time and effort, and lose money should we invest in bringing it to market.

Despite it being possible to produce, and already working at this point. If there are seriously only 20 to 50 potential purchasers, (which is my informed guess) the cost per disc would have to be high in proportion. (possibly higher than even the passionate would pay)

LinesMan already has a pretty undeserved reputation for being expensive, and we would be very reluctant to do a really expensive disc, due to the knock on reputation to our other products.

In addition, if there is a desire here for a parallel project to make all this available on line for free, that is also a big disincentive.

Happy to talk to anybody, and to listen to counter arguments or suggestions, as clearly we have a working model for delivery. Or perhaps somebody would like to pre order a couple of hundred? That would make a difference.

A big dissapoinment for me, as I have personally spent many hours getting it this far.

Guy

LinesMan Developer

[Guest]

I was wondering if there is a chance to get the French sector as well (from Seddul-Bahr to the Kereves Dere) ?

1. See attached....it is slightly too large an area to get the detail with the GWF 100KB limit...I will post another zoomed-in

2. Northern part of the French sector

(no idea how i manage to post 2 photos on one page..)

[Guest]

1. And looking back from the Turkish side.....

2. Faded out

[Guest]

..... we currently do not believe there are enough potential sales to allow the project to pay for its production, let alone bring in a meagre sheckle. In other words, we feel that currently we would likely spend a lot of time and effort, and lose money should we invest in bringing it to market. Guy LinesMan Developer

Guy. Thanks for this post. How much would it cost to develop? MG

[trajan]

1. I am thinking the Ambassador to Turkey might be a starting point for cracking the Turkish route.

5. Universities - any ideas on who might be interested in getting involved? [Trajan's suggestions of Glasgow and Bristol noted. Thanks]

Re 1): The current Ambassador to Turkey is a historian graduate with an interest in archaeology, and a very nice chap to boot! He also has interesting views re: Gallipoli but those are off-record... But I think he would be game for an approach to the Turkish military along the necesary lines. Re 2): Both Glasgow and Bristol do have 'battlefield studies', which is why they are more likely to be approachable than my own esteemed place of work...!!!

Trajan

PS I still don't see why there is no apparent UK involvement in the current ANZAC/Turk survey of Gallipoli (or the Cannakale Savas, as we call it over here).

[Sly]

Hi Martin,

thank you very much for responding and for posting the 3D maps of the Kereves Dere area, this is fantastic !

Sly

[arc_angel]

'Morning all,

some thoughts-

so far as I know the MSP maps are the best contemporary source for terrain data... both in terms of scale, temporal proximity to the conflict and accuracy (the UK sent out some of their own cartographers after the war to see what areas they needed to map themselves and decided that the maps from the Turkish Mapping Directorate were so good they didn't need to be redone. Col Wood's report even mentions ground-truthing being done, though doesn't specify how much of this was done). I've been trying to find exact figures for you on the relationship between resolution and map scale, but I'd say the terrain data on the MSP maps is more detailed than the freely available SRTM data from NASA (I've attached a screenshot of that)....

....so, depending on what you want to do with the terrain data, it might be worthwhile to digitize (trace) all the contour lines and turn that into a terrain model (I'm still pretty pessimistic that antique data is good enough for my purposes when in some cases there's only a single contour line running between the opposing trenches, but anyway). The Australian Broadcasting Company did something on just Anzac using a similar methodology: http://www.abc.net.au/innovation/gallipoli/ Digitizing isn't difficult, but it can be very tedious and time consuming. In some cases in might be possible to automatically pull contour lines off a scanned map and then edit the mistakes the computer has made; some of the maps will have a lot of editing to be done though as the red Ottoman trenches are annoyingly similar in colour to the reddish brown contour lines.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but so far as I know only the vector data from Linesman is transferable to other programs, so you could take the trenches and put them into other mapping programs, but you still wouldn't be able to use the terrain data in anything but MemoryMap overlays. Again, depends on what your goals are, but if you wanted to run a viewshed or fireshed analysis I would think you'd need the terrain data in a portable format. ESRI ArcGIS is the software that I'm familiar with, though I know there are opensource/ free softwares that will let you play around terrain data - MicroDEM and LandSerf come to mind. I'm curious about how your Google Overlays are georeferenced?

I suspect the data I want does exist somewhere, but the military/government powers that be don't want to share it. If there is a way to get permission to get/use such data, that would be great, but I'm not optimistic. The WFA had looked into doing a study there on some of the tunnels and apparently got the answer that it would take years to decide, that the answer would still probably be no, and if they tried anything themselves they'd be arrested. Melbourne University (I think) is doing an archaeological survey right now, but apparently that was years in the making and required some very high-up political help.

-Angela

[green_acorn]

Contraction of text ..........Trajan

PS I still don't see why there is no apparent UK involvement in the current ANZAC/Turk survey of Gallipoli (or the Cannakale Savas, as we call it over here).

Trajan,

I would suggest the reason that there is no British involvment in the archeologivcal survey is that, at present, it is limited to the ANZAC Sector of the Gallipoli Peninsula.

Martin,

ESRI's ArcGIS was in the $10,000 range per dongle (showing my age), but that was about ten years ago. No doubt being the industry's standard and extraordinary market penetration it has made since then it is cheaper> But I do know the University of Qld hate the academic licence costs which I believe is still in the thousands. So I would assume still costly, though probably cheaper in the UK - software makers pull teeth over here in Australia, they would pull milk teeth if they could. I would hope you and Guy are able to talk.

Cheers,

Hendo

[gazcass]

Angela... thanks for this. Nothing is impossible. The data is there, we just need to work out how to get this.... I would love to pick your brains on what routes you have explored and all the technical aspects. Also curious to know how and why the routes you explored came to nothing..is is because they don't have the data or is it because the don't want to release the data or is is money? Very curious to know. I know in my mind what I want but I don't know what the technical terms are for what I call a 'digital grid'....any pointers welcome.

Others thoughts on routes and potential cooperation;

1. I am thinking the Ambassador to Turkey might be a starting point for cracking the Turkish route.

2. AWM - they seem to be the most technically advanced of the archives. Miles ahead of the Brits.

3. IWM - but my experience getting research has been disappointing to say the least

4. NAM - never in a million years. They still use a card index.

5. Universities - any ideas on who might be interested in getting involved? [Trajan's suggestions of Glasgow and Bristol noted. Thanks]

On a separate issue have you seen the 1:10,000 British maps held (in part) at the TNA? If your thesis is looking at the impact of terrain on troop movements they might prove useful. The Scimitar Hill area (site of the single largest battle on 21st/22nd Aug 1915) has a contoured version and trench maps over three dates but importantly has every field boundary drawn, orchards, tracks etc - these boundaries (hedges, ditches, deres etc) definitely chanelled troops away from their intended bearings as the diaries and accounts will testify, especially the 11th Div's attack at Hetman Chair from Tint's Corner.... Also these maps can be easily compared to the Sevki set. I have had high res digital copies made by TNA and have them as overlays on GE too..and can have Sevki and Brit maps laid over each other faded in and out..... There are also a few slightly larger-scale maps of W Hill and Hill 112, Chocolate hill with the same. (220 yards to 1 inch ..so 1:7,920). Amazing detail and I think as good as it gets in terms of contemporary maps. Of greater fascination is the fact that 80-90% of the field boundaries have not changed and it is very easy to get exact historical fixes with the modern terrain. It certainly helped me understand the 21st August better than any narrative could. The fact that the terrain in this area is almost unchanged makes the research so much easier. An excellent laboratory for your kind of approach. I assume you are familiar with the book "Grasping Gallipoli" by Chasseaud and Doyle.

MG

'Mens Agitat Molem'

If anyone can make use of "Grasping Gallipoli" i have a copy which they can have Free of charge, it is by far the most boring book i have ever read !, mostly because i aint got a bloody clue what the book is about!!!!,[ it may how ever be useful to someone who wants to grasp 300 pages of data and reference facts], i only got into about 30 pages before it went over my head!!, contact me if anyone would like it.

Gary

[oak]

Incredible, Martin,

Well done.

I know you've already put up the French sector, but......any chance of Sedd-el-Bahr (V beach) to Lancashire Landing (W Beach), please?

Kind regards,

Philip

[Guest]

.any chance of Sedd-el-Bahr (V beach) to Lancashire Landing (W Beach), please?

Kind regards,

Philip

Philip - If you are able to wait until Jan, I can...I am away from my home PC which has all the reference files/maps. If you remind me after 2nd Jan when I am back home I will post. Regards MG

[arc_angel]

If anyone can make use of "Grasping Gallipoli" i have a copy which they can have Free of charge, it is by far the most boring book i have ever read !, mostly because i aint got a bloody clue what the book is about!!!!,[ it may how ever be useful to someone who wants to grasp 300 pages of data and reference facts], i only got into about 30 pages before it went over my head!!, contact me if anyone would like it.

Gary

Been awhile since I read it, but Grasping Gallipoli argues that while Ian Hamilton would later complain that he didn't have any geographical intelligence before the campaign, he actually had quite a lot ad the best that was available at the time. I would contend that the best that was available still wasn't very good.

[Wendy Macpherson]

Martin ~

A marvelous thread that when you first posted I followed eagerly. These images have given me a much better understanding of Anzac Cove and the New Zealand sector.

As it would happen your footsteps were almost the same as a chap that I have been researching, James Percy GARLIC who was with the Otago's, he continued up Rhododendron Spur and was KIA just before reaching the Apex.

Many thanks for posting such wonderful images on James thread

Kind Regards

Wendy

[Gully Ravine]

Did anything arise from posts #30 and #33?

Keith

[Guest]

Did anything arise from posts #30 and #33?

Keith

No progress. I think the cost to Linesman to develop is too great as the cost per unit would be excessive. I have emailed you on a related issue. MG

[supairman]

Some links for those who might have an interest.

1/ To buy Şevki Paşa Maps online: http://en.eren.com.tr/goster/kitap/kitap.asp?kitap=292055&SID=414161057587

2/ DEVELOPING A GEOGRAPHIC INFORMATION SYSTEM FOR THE GALLIPOLI CAMPAIGN (free download) > http://etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12606263/index.pdf

3/ Gallipoli wars by maps (North area wars according to Ottoman documents) (free download) > http://www.belgeler.com/blg/q49/haritalarla-canakkale-savaslari-osmanli-kaynaklarina-gore-gelibolu-yarimadasi-kuzey-bolgesi-muharebeleri-gallipoli-wars-by-maps-north-area-wars-according-to-ottoman-documents

[green_acorn]

quote name='Martin G' timestamp='1334397809' post='1739339']

No progress. I think the cost to Linesman to develop is too great as the cost per unit would be excessive. I have emailed you on a related issue. MG

That is a tremendous pity as Linesman would add so much to the study of Gallipoli for most people, whether academic, enthusiast or visitor to the Penninsula. I have always appreciated that it has to cost more than generic GPS mapping, probably something not understood by some punters, but I think the potential market is underestimated in Australia and NZ, and even Turkey, where Gallipoli is far more important in the popular psyche than the UK. I am sure if Guy spoke to Turkeys Ministy of Culture and Tourism (UK Office) about visitor numbers and time spent, many more visitors to Gallipoli would be Turkish, Australian and NZ than UK. Dare I say Linesman may also find the way to get the metadata they need.

With MemoryMap being available for iPhone and iPad the potential for Linesman Gallipoli, even without the 3d metadata, must be much greater than the PC and Windows GPS only market. Maybe Linesman also needs to talk to Hema Maps here in Australia about Australasian marketing, as they produce standard Australian topographical maps for MemoryMap products here

Cheers,

Hendo

edited to fix up hyperlinks

[supairman]

Hello - I have managed to overlay all the Sevki Pasha maps on to the Gallipoli peninsula in Google Earth, which allows us to see them in 3D. The attached photo shows the whole set (all 40). I am able to zoom in, fly around and see the terrain through the overlays. which can be faded out to reveal the underlying (GE) terrain. Useful for visualising the original trench locations in the modern terrain. Just FYI in case any Gallipoli visitors need to get an aerial 3D view. Regards MG

Hello MG,

Thank you for the fabulous work you've done and shared with us. In the first instance I am very curious to know how I can use Google Earth if possible with all 40 Shevki Pasha maps overlay you have managed to load.

Secondly and for the long run I am very eager to see the fruits of your project that you will finance with great sacrifice and generosity. With an interest in history and more so in the Gallipoli Campaign now that I live in Çanakkale in my retirement, I am following up this thread with great personal interest and as an initial effect I bought the Shevki Pasha maps and will continue with getting a top of the line Garmin handheld GPS to see if I'll be able to load the information on this product.

Wish you the best of success in your endeavour. Thank you again!

Kayihan

[Guest]

1334534719[/url]' post='1740128']

Hello MG,

Thank you for the fabulous work you've done and shared with us. In the first instance I am very curious to know how I can use Google Earth if possible with all 40 Shevki Pasha maps overlay you have managed to load.

Secondly and for the long run I am very eager to see the fruits of your project

Hello Kayihan. Firstly thank you for posting the links. It was very interesting and there are some very good study pieces. In answer to your question you need the following;

1. Google Earth on a PC

2. High quality photos of the Sevki Pasha maps - preferably scanned as these will limit the optical distortions.

You load your photos onto your PC and ideally make a copy of the sets with the white borders removed (cropped). Then use Google Earth to load up each image as an overlay. It will take some time as you have to carefully fit the maps. I would recommend starting at the top at Suvla Point as it is easier to fit the coastline. You wil have to keep fading the image in and out using the "properties" function at the bottom of the box during this process and you will have to stretch the frame of each map to get an accurate fix. Once one large sheet is done, it becomes easier as the sheets are generally the exact same size so you can size the frame first and then fit it exactly next to the previous one. It took about an hour to do but remember I was pretty well practised.

Once all are fitted remember to save each one in "save my places" otherwise you will lose them and also you need to remember to leave the reference photos exactly whe they are as GE needs to locate them on your PC each time you load up. Once done, you can switch into 3D under "tools" and tick the "show terrain" box. Then you will be able to fly over the 3D landscape in real time, spin around, zoom inand out and generally feel as if you are flying over the land in an aeroplane. Phase 2 is to get this to work on my iPad so I have some mobility and phase 3 is to get some 3G to work out on the ground.

If you have trouble, let me know and I will post more detailed instructions.

Separately, I would be interested in finding out if you have any of the 1:25,000 scale modern maps of the peninsula. I know these exist but I have not been able to get copies. If and when I can locate a set I will have them scanned and converted into data layers so I can build the 3D maps in a similar fashion. You will notice that the GE base layer differed from the Sevki Pasha contours - when in 3D not all the contours run horizontally. I assume this is because of a number of reasons such as surveying inaccuracies, transpositioning errors (the Sevki Pasha maps were I believe based on a set of smaller scale maps either 1:20,000 or 1:25,000 and scaled up) erosion of the land, optical distortions of the scans and survey distortions not compensating for the curvature of the earth etc. I am hoping to basically build a better digital base layer and create additional separate layers of trench systems, filed boundaries, tracks, wells, Derek's, drainage systems, soil types etc etc..... ultimately I aim to plot all troop locations according to the diary records and be able to run a time and motion display of the troops that is fully interactive with links to the war diaries of each unit. That way we will be able to follow the battle in slow motion and choose to follow , say, one particular unit's path..... A sort of virtual battlefield on why I hope will be an accurate 3D baselayer.

Big project, but first I need the best available modern contour maps and do a raster to vector conversion (I think). From that point it becomes easier I believe. In the long term I hope to put it online as a assuming there are no copyright issues. I have a few open lines of enquiry to secure 1: 25,0000 maps but nothing has materialised so far. I am assured they have been declassified by someone in the know, but that does not mean they are easily available. Any pointers would be welcome. I have seen them on someone's PC but not the Gallipoli peninsula sheets. Close but not close enough.

Sevki Pasha is 1:5,000 scale (I think) and the few British 1:10,000 maps Sheets 117 &118 and Sheets 105 & 106 are the best and most accurate historical maps. There are some larger scale sketch maps but only of tiny areas and not very accurate, and a few aer photos, e.g Dublin Castle, Lancashire Landing, Krithia etc, . Anything smaller scale than 1:25,000 will not advance us beyond the GE framework i.e. the Russian maps 1:100,000 are just not detailed enough.

Any pointers would be welcome.

[Gully Ravine]

Further to posts in this thread re trench maps on satnavs etc, I too am very disappointed that those of us interested in Gallipoli are so far unable to enjoy similar mapping experiences to those provided by the excellent Linesman product for the Western Front. It would be nice to see this happen, but I do understand the issues Great War Digital (and others) face in delivering this to us. I hope alternatives can be found, especially with the 100y anniversary getting closer which must present the ideal 'marketing time'.

Like Martin, I have been experimenting with Sevket Pasha map overlays in GE. These work quite well given the limitations of the technologies available at the time the maps were created. The overlaying of aerial photos also works quite well and can add to the accuracy of the map overlaying process. I started with the intention of creating a single 'Map of Gallipoli' such as Martin has done in post #01. However, this is a large area and I feel the image of the whole area would be too large (or lacking in detail) to be used as one image on a portable device. So, I have gone back to individual overlays, which I am doing with cropped maps (I have removed the borders of each map).

I am trying out two techniques – one is to import my own maps (a combined GE / Sevket map) on to my satnav (a Memory Map device which runs the Memory Map software and, hence, Linesman). I have been slowed a little doing this as I needed a separate 'map import' licence which I now have. I will be trying this over the next few days and in the field later in the year - assuming stage 1 is successful. If I can geo-reference the maps OK on the satnav, I then hope to be able to stitch them together to give a 'single map scrolling effect'– but I may be getting ahead of myself here ...

My other technique is to use my mobile phone (Martin, I think this may be your stage 2 from post #48). I am using an iPhone 4, but the approach may work on other devices (e.g. Android) – I haven't tested this out. It should also work on an iPad – but again not evaluated or tested. This technique will only work in 'navigation mode' on location if the iPad has an Internet connection. The maps should display OK without, but local position will not show without the 3G version and connection.

For iPhone 4, you will need:

Pre-requistes: Email set up on your phone.

Program KMZ Loader (free from the Apple 'App Store') installed (kmz files are compressed and this program decompresses and allows them to be opened).

Step 1: crop the map of interest and save it as a smaller file whilst retaining as much detail as possible (this helps speed up the map loading process later). Approx.150k jpg seems to work OK for me – other file sizes / types may also work – needs more testing to determine best file size / detail ratio.

Step 2: use GE (on your PC) and navigate to the area covered by the trench map and overlay it as best you can (see Martin's posts for the technique if you are not familiar with it).

Step 3: name the overlay on GE, fade it to about 50% and save it.

Step 4: use the email option in the GE toolbar (envelope icon) to send yourself the map (select option 3 which will create a.kmz file type). Send.

Step 5: open the email on your phone

Step 6: open the attachment which should then load GE with the overlaid map displayed. If you are in the area of the map display, then you should also be able to locate your position and move around the map area with reasonable accuracy.

I do not suggest this is anywhere near as accurate as anything the mapping experts can deliver, but it does seem to work and in the absence of an alternative (that I have been able to find) it is 'better than nothing'.

Note this shouldn't require any internet connection once the email is on your phone, so no roaming charges should be incurred.

Next step with this is to find a suitable iPhone app that will let me save .kmz files locally to the phone so that a 'double-click' on the name will open up GE and the map. After that, a file with trench names, cemeteries or other key locations in it which hyper-link to the appropriate kmz file ...

Here is a screenshot from my iPhone of an uncropped map of Helles which I created when trying this out. I have also overlaid this map over my home on GE and can see 'my location' move around the map as I perambulate the area.

Keith

[Gully Ravine]

Quick update - kmz loader saves the files so separate program to upload these not needed.

Keith