Guest Posted 19 November , 2011 Share Posted 19 November , 2011 Hello - I have managed to overlay all the Sevki Pasha maps on to the Gallipoli peninsula in Google Earth, which allows us to see them in 3D. The attached photo shows the whole set (all 40). I am able to zoom in, fly around and see the terrain through the overlays. which can be faded out to reveal the underlying (GE) terrain. Useful for visualising the original trench locations in the modern terrain. Just FYI in case any Gallipoli visitors need to get an aerial 3D view. Regards MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonrb Posted 19 November , 2011 Share Posted 19 November , 2011 Martin, A very impressive piece of work, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 19 November , 2011 Share Posted 19 November , 2011 And a close-up of Gully Ravine.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 19 November , 2011 Share Posted 19 November , 2011 And for our Antipodean friends...ANZAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purley Posted 19 November , 2011 Share Posted 19 November , 2011 Martin looks great - can anyone get their hands on them - looking for terrain around scimitar hill which was where Fred Potts of the Berks Yeomanry towed Arthur Andrews on a shovel over 48 hours and won the VC - We are trying to raise the funds to put up a memorial to Fred and the selected sculptor is keen to see the lie of the terrain. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollowi Posted 19 November , 2011 Share Posted 19 November , 2011 Martin Excellent work. being from the Antipodes I've only done the ANZAC sector so know how challenging the whole Sevki map set would have been. Great work Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krithia Posted 19 November , 2011 Share Posted 19 November , 2011 This is excellent work Martin, its great to see familiar ground in this dimension ... Is Suvla coming along soon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 November , 2011 Share Posted 20 November , 2011 Simply brilliant piece of work! Well done! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leighc Posted 20 November , 2011 Share Posted 20 November , 2011 Fantastic work Martin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 20 November , 2011 Share Posted 20 November , 2011 Suvla.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 20 November , 2011 Share Posted 20 November , 2011 This is one way of using it....I walked the trail from North ANZAC Beach near Old No.2 Outpost up to the Farm Cemetery....two additional images to follow.... The climb up to Table Top and the views across Hill 60 Chocolate Hill, Scimitar Hill and Kavak Tepe are simply spectacular. The overlays were a great help in trying to establish where trench systems would have been. Loaded on a lightweight laptop when hiking up is a very useful tool (images pre-loaded)....also if you have a Garmin that tracks the trail it can show the trail when loaded up.... getting the best out of technology. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 20 November , 2011 Share Posted 20 November , 2011 And without the overlay half faded out.... Any fully faded out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 20 November , 2011 Share Posted 20 November , 2011 And looking back (hovering over Chunuk Bair) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 20 November , 2011 Share Posted 20 November , 2011 Same with Overlay faded out completely... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMH Posted 20 November , 2011 Share Posted 20 November , 2011 Martin, What wonderful images these are - extraordinarily informative, and beautiful too! Thank you for sharing them. Joanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soitiz Posted 22 November , 2011 Share Posted 22 November , 2011 Absolutely brilliant, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judy7007 Posted 22 November , 2011 Share Posted 22 November , 2011 So amazing. So want to be there....hopefully again soon Many, many thanks Judy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green_acorn Posted 23 November , 2011 Share Posted 23 November , 2011 Martin, That is simply superb and opens up a whole range of research opportunities. Do you know of anyone who sells the maps as a DVD or considered doing a "Linesman" with them? Cheers, Chris PS (edit): I say sell as there is a very large potential market when one includes the Turks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 23 November , 2011 Share Posted 23 November , 2011 And one other thing - Martin, I guess you are familiar with GIS applications as used in archaeology? It strikes me that you or somebody else might be able to do even more with these using GIS, now that you have done the back-breaking part of the task, getting the broad data online. I also suspect that the joint Australian/New Zealand/Turkish archaeologists working at the site would welcome these incredibly wonderful pieces of solid research. Imagine what they would look like with overlays showing different categories of finds - we might even discover more on the subject of another GWF thread, fields of fire from the those German MG positions (and even, perhaps, the firing position(s) of the dastardy woman/women sniper of Gallipoli... ) Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 23 November , 2011 Share Posted 23 November , 2011 Dear All - thanks for the comments. My copies came from an modern Turkish print run some years back.The index is in modern romanised Turkish script. I am told one can still get these in Istanbul - presumably the second hand book market. I think (but am not certain) that the WFA and IWM have a set on their CD. I hve purchased it but never got it to run on 64-bit and Vista or an other of my 4 PCs /laptops so I gave up years ago trying to get a fix. Maybe someone else can confirm the IWM CD "Other Theatres" has them or not. If they do, I believe they are significantly lighter coloured than the set I have. Chris - Ref Linesman etc. I have no idea. Trajan - I am not familiar with GIS, so I will have to investigate. Any pointers welcome What I am trying to do (and would gladly fund it) is to get a high resolution digital map framework of the terrain (imagine a digital square grid mesh).... basically a satellite scan of the peninsular digitised so the underlying terrain can be rendered accurately in 3D in a better way than the Google Earth. When GE is in 3D mode the grid is not particularly accurate as can be seen on the contour lines - which should in theory all be horizontal. Obviously 90 plus years of erosion would have taken its toll so the 'fitness' of the map contours to the digital GE grid would always be out. I am in discussions with a specialist visual effects Company (one of the leading companies in the UK - worked on a few blockbuster films) and we are working on some kind of solution. All I am missing is the underlying data and I might have to commission it. - possibly a year out as I work full time in the City. Once I have a digital grid it will be easy to scan in the maps and fit them correctly and 'stretch and fit' to compensate for errors and the curvature of the earth...also do separate overlays for contour maps, feature maps (fields, roads etc) trench system overlays, Troop dispositions, etc and have it all in 3D and with a time series for the troops so it is possible to track movement 'live'. Could also integrate battlefield tour walks/routes and links to itineraries, etc.. Once we have the grid the rest is quite easy. If I can convince TNA to allow me to integrate maps/Sketch maps from the War Diaries and possibly link the digital 'Troops' to the links to the War Diaries we might have something that would be of use. The possibilities are only bounded by one's imagination. My aim is absolutely not commercial...I just want to broaden knowledge of Gallipoli and do it in a way that embraces cutting edge technology. Once it is all done I intend on providing free access on-line so anyone can fly over the terrain, and interact with the layering and battlefield, and access the transcribed war diaries, (publications?) which will be linked-in (large parts of 5 Division's worth so far). Happy to fund it all, but I just need to buy the digital data for the underlay - and it has to be the very best available. NASA might be the first stop. Any ideas welcome. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green_acorn Posted 24 November , 2011 Share Posted 24 November , 2011 ESRIMemory MapESRI ArcGIS Dear All - thanks for the comments. My copies came from an modern Turkish print run some years back.The index is in modern romanised Turkish script. I am told one can still get these in Istanbul - presumably the second hand book market. I think (but am not certain) that the WFA and IWM have a set on their CD. I hve purchased it but never got it to run on 64-bit and Vista or an other of my 4 PCs /laptops so I gave up years ago trying to get a fix. Maybe someone else can confirm the IWM CD "Other Theatres" has them or not. If they do, I believe they are significantly more than the set I have. Chris - Ref Linesman etc. I have no idea. Trajan - I am not familiar with GIS, so I will have to investigate. Any pointers welcome What I am trying to do (and would gladly fund it) is to get a high resolution digital map framework of the terrain (imagine a digital square grid mesh).... basically a satellite scan of the peninsular digitised so the underlying terrain can be rendered accurately in 3D in a better way than the Google Earth. When GE is in 3D mode the grid is not particularly accurate as can be seen on the contour lines - which should in theory all be horizontal. Obviously 90 plus years of erosion would have taken its toll so the 'fitness' of the map contours to the digital GE grid would always be out. I am in discussions with a specialist visual effects Company (one of the leading companies in the UK - worked on a few blockbuster films) and we are working on some kind of solution. All I am missing is the underlying data and I might have to commission it. - possibly a year out as I work full time in the City. Once I have a digital grid it will be easy to scan in the maps and fit them correctly and 'stretch and fit' to compensate for errors and the curvature of the earth...also do separate overlays for contour maps, feature maps (fields, roads etc) trench system overlays, Troop dispositions, etc and have it all in 3D and with a time series for the troops so it is possible to track movement 'live'. Could also integrate battlefield tour walks/routes and links to itineraries, etc.. Once we have the grid the rest is quite easy. If I can convince TNA to allow me to integrate maps/Sketch maps from the War Diaries and possibly link the digital 'Troops' to the links to the War Diaries we might have something that would be of use. The possibilities are only bounded by one's imagination. My aim is absolutely not commercial...I just want to broaden knowledge of Gallipoli and do it in a way that embraces cutting edge technology. Once it is all done I intend on providing free access on-line so anyone can fly over the terrain, and interact with the layering and battlefield, and access the transcribed war diaries, (publications?) which will be linked-in (large parts of 5 Division's worth so far). Happy to fund it all, but I just need to buy the digital data for the underlay - and it has to be the very best available. NASA might be the first stop. Any ideas welcome. MG Martin, What you want to do is tremendous and laudable. NASA would refer you to your national mapping agency. I would suggest talking to the Ordnance Survey and with their help put it to the Turkish mapping agency (Which I suspect will be the Army) as they will have all of the geospatial data. They would no doubt want to fob you off, treating it as a national security issue, but that is no longer true as it was sixty years ago, too many satellites are constantly scanning and it is not as if you are wanting to plot all current Turkish defence sites. The next way would be to buy a full set of ESRI ArcGIS which uses the US supplied worldwide geospatial data and would allow you to generate different views (ie: Ottoman front lines, mg positions). However the problem is ESRI charge an atm and a leg and I don't know abouot ESRI allowing use on the web. But you can now get an app for smartphones and tablets, which would be great for the visitor. Or the maps could like Linesman be exported for use with Memory Map which also has an app for iPhones and iPads, though I think that would be at lower capability than the Esri product for the more complex visualisations you mentioned. Have you thought of teaming up with one or more of the universitites? This is an ideal way for a History Department to get into the visual world with its Geospatial Department, I would suggest going so far as contacting the Australian Department of Veterans Affairs (probably being the easiest to get an answer out of) and put it them as a multinational Great War Rememberance project, with the AWM, IWM and possibly the Turks, French, Indians and so forth - But I do appreciate that would be getting beyond your personal project and ability to control. But they are out there looking for projects, particularly for the 2015 visitors. Cheers, Hendo Edit: for some reason insert link is not working for me today, so http://www.esri.com/ and www.memory-map.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arc_angel Posted 24 November , 2011 Share Posted 24 November , 2011 Underlying high resolution digital data is going to be pretty well impossible to obtain, if my experience over the past year has been any indication. I had been working on a PhD on dynamically modelling the effects of microterrain on troop movements with Gallipoli as my study site. I was going to run my models at multiple resolutions, the coarsest being 1:5000 so that I could compare it to the Mehmet Sevki Pasa maps. My doctorate is currently on hold due a variety of personal, family and financial reasons, but I have pretty well given up on Gallipoli anyway because I can't get that high resolution data. I've tried the MOD, GeoEye, TARA, various forums and professional contacts, USGS, Istanbul Techincal University, and Canakkale Onsekiz Mart University. Monoscopic imagery at a 1m resolution is available from GeoEye, but stereo imagery (except 30m SRTM data), aerial photography, modern terrain data, Lidar - none of it exists (or so I'm told). I've heard of a project building terrain models from RAF photos of the Western Front, but so far as I know there isn't enough imagery of Gallipoli, being too early in the war. The Turkish government won't allow the collection of your own terrain data (I had been thinking of using a terrestrial lidar scanner at Kiretch Tepe), and rarely even allows Turkish academics to use what data they do have. Would love to be proven wrong, however. -Angela (not sure if my signature has my old email on it, etc, so: Angela Cunningham, MSc-R, BA, PFRGS PhD student Department of Geography, Geology and the Environment Kingston University London a.r.cunningham@ed-alumni.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterhogg Posted 24 November , 2011 Share Posted 24 November , 2011 These are fascinating. Thank you for posting. Very interesting! peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 24 November , 2011 Share Posted 24 November , 2011 Most interesting set of maps, overlays, 3-D images, call them waht you will, I have seen for a long time. Look forward to hearing more about this. Regards, Jonathan S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 November , 2011 Share Posted 24 November , 2011 Martin, a quick note - Fitzee posted this link on another thread today ('Reconstructing WWI battlefields): it may be of use and/or interest: - "Hi Angela, I believe you are speaking of GIS technology. http://findarticles....0/ai_n29259212/ Regards, Fitzee". I can also confirm that the Turks are NOT helpful with mapping enquires... - 'Burasi Turkiye', meaning 'This is Turkey', the usual defeatist response/comment when complaining about lack of helpfulness from civil authorities, etc... A university contact/link might be a way forward - try Glasgow or Bristol. Or I could just try to get my own department of archaeology here at Bilkent in Turkey interested. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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