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Barny

Military Medal award WW1

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Bardess

Sorry, Brian, but this wreaks of trying to 'make fit' the information available to you. Unless their names are written on the photos no-one [especially an elderly daughter] can verify that they are Frank. I agree that he is not wearing standard KRRC uniform. Also, there are definitely only 2 wound stripes [none hiding!]. Is there another surname we could check?

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Blackblue

There can't have been too many CPLs in 2nd Dragoons with MM & CdG. Can the field be narrowed this way?

Rgds

Tim D

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Stebie9173

It may be worth contacting the museums responsible for the Royal Scots Greys and the King's Royal Rifle Corps to see what information they have on gallantry medal awards.

http://www.scotsdgmuseum.com/

http://www2.armynet.mod.uk/museums/rifles_museums/winchester_museum/research.htm

Don't forget that Service Records for men serving after 1921 are still held by the MOD and it may be worth contacting them. His records will probbaly state what awards he was given and when.

http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/service_records.html

Steve.

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Pavster1980

What makes you say the second photo is KRRC? If he is I think he should have black buttons? If this is the same man I would say the second photo is taken later and in this he appears to be wearing a Rough Rider (or Riding Instructor) spur badge and now be a Corporal. I would guess that he became an instructor at some stage after the first photo as no such badge appears on it. I don't think a riding instructor would have been assigned to an infantry battalion (KRRC). If he was born in 1900 and 19 in the first photo and is 23 or so in the second then he would almost certainly have campaign ribbons by then.

Are you sure you have the correct Medal Index Card as the KRRC link doesn't seem to add up to the photos? Are there other photos?

Rgds

Tim D

I'm not the only one thinking this then?

Rich

And this is certainly worth a read!

http://www.garethjon...sian_famine.htm

Ancestry has him born in Nottingham Jan Quarter 1900.

Rgds

Tim D

Yes that is what I found on Ancestry also!

Rich

The only K.R.R.C. Woodhead I can find with the M.M. is 5736 W Woodhead, awarded the M.M. in the London Gazette of 16-11-1916.

http://www.london-ga...pplements/11144

In fact, he was accidentally awarded it "twice" - the award was duplicated in the Gazette of 6-1-1917.

http://www.london-ga...supplements/349

I cannot find any Woodheads with the M.M. in the Cavalry.

Steve.

That's the chap I mentioned earlier

Rich

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Pavster1980

are there any other photos?

Rich

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Barny

This is a cropped enlargement of Frank Woodhead to highlight the medal bar with what seems to be the Military Medal ribbon. The bar looks long enough to have another ribbon on it but not detailed enough to show what or if.

Rich mentioned the Croix de Guerre from a photo posted earlier. The uniform cap and lapel badges prove that at this particular time he was serving in the Royal Scots Greys and(not shown)he has 2 overseas chevrons on his right cuff. Maybe I should be looking for an archive that has records of the R.S.G's since the London Gazette doesn't seem to have recorded it.

post-73081-0-45103800-1307691257.jpg

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Blackblue

1. There is no dispute that the man in this photo is Royal Scots Greys and wearing an MM and CdG ribbon.

2. The second photo is not KRRC either. If the photos are in fact Frank Woodhead then I would guess he must have served under another name, the only other likely explanation is that the man pictured here is NOT actually Frank Woodhead.

3. Are you sure your relative Frank Easton Woodhead served with the KRRC? Do you have any other evidence of this as suggested earlier? If this is the case then I am afraid it appears there photos are not your man and Frank Woodhead was not awarded an MM and CdG.

4. I can't find any Woodhead who served with the 2nd Dragoons (RSG), let alone one who was awarded the MM and CdG. You will also note that he has a 2 at the start of his shoulder title signifying RSG.

Rgds

Tim D

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Barny

Hi Tim D,

I do indeed have proof that he was in the KRRC and I've attatched the relevent medal index card. His story seems to me that he served first in the RSG and later in the KRRC.

I also have a Certificate of Education awarded to No.205428 Cpl.F.E.Woodhead, 3rd Bn. Kings Royal Rifle Corps, dated 23rd June 1920 and issued by Captain F.H.Broach, Inspector of Army Schools, Mhow, India,23rd June 1920. He must have had a different(yet unknown)service number in the RSG's.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you and all the other people who are showing such an interest in this investigation, I do believe I've got the best amateur military detectives in the country on the case.

Brian

post-73081-0-99283500-1307698689.jpg

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Blackblue

Cheers Brian,

No doubt he is the man on the MIC then. I think you will find however that the photos you have are probably of another man. Where did you come by the evidence that they are one in the same?

The only other reasonable possibilities (given no London Gazette entries and no MIC) is that he served with RSG under another name or that he is wearing a uniform and awards to which he was not entitled. It seems unlikely to me that the man in the photos is Harold Woodhead. As you have outlined he was born in 1900 and would have only been 18 at the start of 1918. This lad looks a little older to me.

One of the resident KRRC experts may be able to give enlistment dates for his KRRC number.

Rgds

Tim D

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Barny

Hi Blackblue,

In all reality the evidence of Frank E. Woodhead being the man in all the photo's is largely circumstantial, other than his 80 yr old daughter's confirmation, plus afew photo's she sent me from her own family collection showing him as a mature man which all show the same likeness. As I stated earlier, he was my half brother by my father's first wife. I never met him. I knew nothing about him a year ago other than he'd existed, until I processed 80 negative pictures on 3"x 4" thin glass slides that I'd kept in the bottom of a wardrobe for ages and ages, not even his name. With the aid of Photoshops photo editing software I've been able to produce some half decent pictures from some very dodgy negatives that were 90 odd years old. All sorts of characters came to light, including the soldier. This prompted me to use "Ancestry" to try and trace my ancesters. I know my dad was a photographic enthusiast and I had the very camera that took these slides. The 1911 census told me all the members of my dad's family with names and their ages,so I've been able to identify quite a few of the people on the pics. All of the soldier photo's were taken in a domestic garden as were other family members,so I feel why on earth should my dad take pictures in his own back yard of his soldier son(whom he must have been so proud)and another look-a-like bloke with the same medals. Don't forget that taking photographs 90 years ago wasn't a simple operation like it is today.It was also relatively expensive and shots wern't taken flipantly.I

find this circumstantial evidence quite compelling. I've attatched a photo taken in my dad's back garden of Frank in civvies with his brother Bertram(younger by 10 years).You could say it's not the same chap but the two of them together says it all in my book.There was a 3rd brother but he died in 1908 aged 6. I'm guessing this was shot in 1919-1920.

Regards Brian

post-73081-0-85297100-1307722015.jpg

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Blackblue

Cheers Brian,

I would agree that this looks to be the same man as the other photos you have shown.

What we cannot rationalise at the moment is that he served with both the RSG and KRRC and was awarded the MM and CdG and there is no record whatsoever of this. The only explanation seems to be that he enlisted under age serving with the RSG under a completely different name and then discharged and re-enlisted for some reason (and the initial enlistment was not linked to his later service). His later papers would also likely have the post-nominal MM after his name, unless he was hiding the previous enlistment for some reason.

Do you have any other military photos in KRRC uniform?

Do you have any other documents and dates as far as when he began his service with KRRC? What is the Certificate of Education for?

As he served post war you may be able to apply to the MoD to obtain his service papers which may shed some further light on this all.

Rgds

Tim D

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Stebie9173

I think the thing to do now is run with the assumption that the photo IS Frank Woodhead.

First stop is to work out the date of enlistment for the KRRC number which is definite fact. In view of that I have looked for service records of men with similar numbers and have found Harold James Bird of Woolwich, K.R.R.C. No. A/205448, born in 1899, and enlisted, age 17 years & 7 months, having previously worked on munitions, on 2nd October 1916, and accepted for service on 13th March 1917. Originally serving in two Training Reserve Battalions, the latter being the 17th Battalion, later the 51st Graduated Battalion of the K.R.R.C. (converted 17th June 1917). He went to France on 4th March 1918 and was transferred to the 8th Battalion of the K.R.R.C. on 5th March 1918.

There is also A/205475 F G Couzens who followed the same route to France.

I'm not sure exactly which date he would have gained his K.R.R.C. number - either 17th June 1917 or 5th March 1918 (assuming he went overseas with this training group, which isn't 100% certain). It depends on whether the Graduated battalion classed as Training reserve or K.R.R.C. for numbering purposes.

Combined with the education certificate it suggests that he served with the K.R.R.C. between late 1917 and 1920, at least, suggesting that the Royal Scots Greys service may have been later.

Steve.

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Barny

Thanks very much for your research on my behalf Steve (Stebie9173). I'm a bit short of time at the moment but I'll send you a bit more info that may help ASAP

Regards Brian.

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Barny

ASAP reply as promised.

The attatched photograph is definately Frank Easton Woodhead in KRRC uniform, this can be taken as 100% positive. My main objective in all this is to establish if he was awarded the Military Medal. The picture is an enlarged portion of him, enhanced a little to highlight the medal ribband. Although it's monochrome it looks as if the rightmost ribbon could the MM. If so,it ought to be gazetted but I've not been able to find it. If it's not the MM or any other gallantry award I'm not inclined to spend a lot of time and effort on the subject. It's beginning to look doubtful that the Royal Scots Greys connection is valid despite my photo's of a "look-a-like" soldier with an MM pictured in a domestic garden and taken with the same camera. All my pictures are glass slides packed in the photo developers original boxes so I know it was the same camera. One or two replies I've had have expressed doubt that soldiers in the two uniforms are in fact the same person.(He didn't have a twin brother or a brother similar in age either). I've spoken by phone to his 80 yr old daughter and asked if Frank had any interest in horses, She adamantly said he'd never sat on a horse in his life and even laughed at the idea, so that seems to blow the RSG's out of the water.

I would value your opinion on the medal ribband though. Regards Brian.post-73081-0-37523100-1307882572.jpg

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Barny

I've attatched a copy of a letter I recieved from the RGJ's museum.

post-73081-0-28089800-1307883357.jpg

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headgardener

Certainly KRRC, and almost certainly an MM ribbon. Very hard to tell about the rest, though. Looks like it could be followed by a BWM, and then presumably a VM, but then it looks like space for at least one if not two more ribbons.

Any chance of seeing what's on his lower left sleeve?

I was reading this thread earlier today; you thought that GC stripes weren't worn with Corporal's tapes, but that's not correct. GC stripes were worn by anyone who qualified for them. In fact, NCO's were probably more likely to have them than men.

The odd thing is that the ribbons on this photo, with an MM at the start and an unidentified ribbon or ribbons at the end, do match the ribbons being worn by the RSG man (MM and C de G).

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Stebie9173

I would be pretty comfortable staking a fair bit of money on that being the Military Medal on the left of the ribbon (as we look). Next appears to be the British War medal (with the wide dark solid area) followed by the Victory medal which looks very light coloured on the photograph. He also has an extra ribbon on the end which could be the "Croix de Guerre" if these are the same man.

The complete medal ribbon would date the photograph as early 1920s. His dark buttons are the rifle regiment buttons we have mentioned. An expert may be able to date the style of corporal chevrons, which to my inexpert eye appear to be non-WW1.

Edit: Oops, my post and that of Headgardener "passed in the post", but we have agreed!

Steve.

P.S. I have gone through the K.R.R.C. Military Medals awarded in the Gazettes from November 1918 to August 1919 when they were grouped by Regiment. I cannot see his M.M. in the lists. Since I now have a Word file of these, any interested parties are welcome to the list!

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Barny

Headgardener............Left lower sleeve coming up SIR! togpost-73081-0-90328300-1307886432.jpgether with the rest of him.

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headgardener

Hmmm. 3 wound stripes, a skill at arms badge, an MM and some other medal ribbons. The only difference between him and the RSG man is the absence of GC stripes.

Curious.

The combination of MM and C de G isn't rare, but I'd say it's not common to see 2 different men with that same combination of medal ribbons in the same collection of photos. I'm trying to think of a way of linking the service of the KRRC man and the RSG man, but I'm struggling to do it.

What does anyone else make of this?

Edit; it looks like he may have had service beyond the cut-off for his records being transferred to TNA, so they could still be with the MOD. Maybe that's where you'll find the answers to these puzzles.

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Stebie9173

As I believe it the Good Conduct stripes were generally not worn by N.C.O.s above the "Rank" of Lance-Corporal, though they may have been worn by acting N.C.O.s (not sure!), so I wouldn't expect to see the GC chevrons on a Corporal.

It is all very curious!!

Steve.

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headgardener

As I believe it the Good Conduct stripes were generally not worn by N.C.O.s above the "Rank" of Lance-Corporal, though they may have been worn by acting N.C.O.s (not sure!), so I wouldn't expect to see the GC chevrons on a Corporal.

Yes, having done a quick check of my notes, I see that you are right about this.

And I agree that it is all very curious.....!

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Barny

Does this rather indistinct trade badge help at all.

Brian

post-73081-0-63139300-1307888566.jpg

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headgardener

Looks like 'MG' (Machine Gunner) or possibly 'HG" (Hotchkiss Gunner).

Don't think it really helps move this on.

He's wearing 2 overseas service stripes, and looks like he's got his medal ribbons up, so at the earliest this must be taken in late 1919 or in 1920.

Any other images that might give us something to go on?

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Barny

Here's a picture of a soldier (certainly looks like Frank, I don't know what to believe now) in RSG's uniform, not having attained Corporal rank, but sporting the MM and something else alongside it.

Brian.

post-73081-0-48313700-1307892356.jpg

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