Military Medal award WW1

[headgardener]

Brian,

I posted a thread (HERE) about post-1921 service papers. It looks like there's a extremely good chance that his service papers will still be with the MOD.

Just a couple of thoughts regarding your last posts; I reckon that when that guy on the MOD helpline told you that the MOD's database is not going to contain anything that isn't already available elsewhere, he's referring to you enquiring about Frank's MM. In which case, he's correct. If you ask the MOD to look for an MM they'll only use the LG database, which is what we've already searched, and that's what the KRRC museum used, too.

Regarding the difficulties searching the online version of the LG, I've covered that by searching the original hard-copy indices. And in addition to my search last week (1917-1921) I've just searched the whole of 1922, but he's still not there.

What we do know is that he certainly faced, and survived, some very difficult times during WW1. It looks like he was part of a draft that, within days of arriving at the front, got swallowed up in the German Spring offensive in March 1918 in which I think his battalion was decimated. He must have been one of the survivors, or he may have been captured by the Germans (and we know that POW's at that stage of the war often suffered terrible conditions). If he was captured then that opens up a whole new area of research. I'm guessing that he wasn't; if his daughter knew he'd been in the KRRC, I reckon she'd have known if he'd been a POW. But so far Frank has been full of surprises, so who knows....?

[Barny]

I've been on a MOD website and confirmed the records that were destroyed (65%) in the London WW2 blitz were up to a discharge date of 1920. Those who were discharged after the First World War period are still held by the MOD.

Since our man Frank left after this date, (possibly as late as 1923) there seems to be a really good chance that his records are intact. This being so, I'll risk the £13 search fee and go ahead, providing I can get around the lack of a Death Cert of course. They might accept 111 years since his birth instead of the 116 stipulated in their rule book. I'll have to obtain his daughter's signature as next of kin but that shouldn't be a problem other than having to wait for the post. And don't worry chaps, as soon as I know anything I'll be letting you all know,

no matter how long it takes.

Regards to you all...........Brian.

PS. I'll ask his daughter if he was a POW.

[Barny]

I've emailed (as opposed to phoned a help-line) the MOD asking them specifically, since there is no death certificate, if it's possible to accept 111 years since a soldiers birth instead of the regulation 116 yrs, I've told them I'm 72, and waiting a further 5 years might not neccessarily be on the cards. Only sent it yesterday so no reply yet.

I'm going to risk being a plonker and ask something that occurred to me the other day. I've heard the term "seconded" to do with army life. Does it mean that a soldier serving in a particular regiment could be transferred to a different regiment temporally and eventually be returned to his original regiment? If so,would the affected soldier have to wear the new uniform temporally and also transfer his various merit badges, stripes, medal ribbons etc. to the new uniform? I throw this idea in (realizing I'll probably crash and burn)to see if it helps with Frank's two regiments at the same time problem.

Just a thought...........Brian.

[Stebie9173]

The option of being seconded (or attached) to the RSG did cross my mind. However, it strikes me as very unlikely that a man would be seconded from the Infantry to the Cavalry bearing in mind that the "Skill-set" required in each of the two arms was quite different.

You do see a lot of Cavalry officers seconded to the Infantry, but I can't remember seeing an instance of it in the other ranks.

But, yes, in theory if a man was seconded, his uniform would change (except in some cases, like Armourer Sergeants seconded from the Army Ordnance Corps), and his badges would transfer to the new uniform.

Steve.

[headgardener]

I've heard the term "seconded" to do with army life. Does it mean that a soldier serving in a particular regiment could be transferred to a different regiment temporally and eventually be returned to his original regiment? If so,would the affected soldier have to wear the new uniform temporally and also transfer his various merit badges, stripes, medal ribbons etc. to the new uniform? I throw this idea in (realizing I'll probably crash and burn)to see if it helps with Frank's two regiments at the same time problem

Steve is right and, yes, it is possible for a man to be wearing the uniform of a regiment that he was seconded to.

But the problem with this in Frank's case is that it doesn't explain the 2 GC chevrons which, knowing that Frank joined in 1917, would theoretically date the photos as being no earlier than 1922. Bear in mind that there are no GC chevrons on his KRRC photos (he's got his 'Hotchkiss Gunner' badge up, and that was only awarded in 1920). For him to be wearing 2 chevrons in 1922 he'd have to have 1 stripe up by 1920.

[Barny]

I thought GC chevrons came off when rank of corporal was achieved.

Brian

Just spotted this on another forum............................................

"It's probable that they were being worn by TA Hotchkiss Gunners, the Hotchkiss was phased out of the Regular Army by 1940, the Regulars had adopted LG in wreath in 1921, it's likely that the TF adopted the "LG" without wreath as it now stood for Light (Machine) Gunner."

Would I be correct in saying that the primary heavy weapon's of the TF/TA infantry would be either a Maxim, Vickers or Lewis Gun rahter than the Hotchkiss? The only photo I have of infantry with the Hotchkiss is members of the Volunteer Force in 1918 and there again I believe the qualification badge was "HG" in the wreath? As far as I'm aware the Hotchkiss was primarily used by the cavalry and yeomanry due to the weight of the Maxim and Vickers, which in infantry battalions had to be carried on specially adopted carts drawn by horse.

[headgardener]

I thought GC chevrons came off when rank of corporal was achieved.

Yes, you're quite right, I keep on forgetting that point. But that wouldn't explain why he's a Private in the RSG photos which, based on the chevrons, indicate a minimum of 5 years service. Remember that the KRRC photos had to be taken before 1922 (based on presence of wound stripes and O/S chevrons). And that, in turn, wouldn't match what you understand to be the age of his brother in post No. 61.

Would I be correct in saying that the primary heavy weapon's of the TF/TA infantry would be either a Maxim, Vickers or Lewis Gun rahter than the Hotchkiss? The only photo I have of infantry with the Hotchkiss is members of the Volunteer Force in 1918 and there again I believe the qualification badge was "HG" in the wreath? As far as I'm aware the Hotchkiss was primarily used by the cavalry and yeomanry due to the weight of the Maxim and Vickers, which in infantry battalions had to be carried on specially adopted carts drawn by horse.

I really don't know the answer to this, I'm afraid. Someone else here is bound to know! Frank appears to be a regular rather than a territorial, though. The patch on his sleeve could be 'MG' rather than 'HG', it's hard to be certain.

[Barny]

Yes, you're quite right, I keep on forgetting that point. But that wouldn't explain why he's a Private in the RSG photos which, based on the chevrons, indicate a minimum of 5 years service. Remember that the KRRC photos had to be taken before 1922 (based on presence of wound stripes and O/S chevrons). And that, in turn, wouldn't match what you understand to be the age of his brother in post No. 61.

I really don't know the answer to this, I'm afraid. Someone else here is bound to know! Frank appears to be a regular rather than a territorial, though. The patch on his sleeve could be 'MG' rather than 'HG', it's hard to be certain.

Frank did a course on the Lewis and the Hotchkiss in India 1920 and was the only one to obtain a Distinguished passmark. All his cousemates only got a Qualified pass. His daughter says he was a (quote) crackshot.

[Blackblue]

Brian,

Just wondered if there has been any further news on this one?

Rgds

Tim D