FROGSMILE Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 This may or may not be the badge which these men are wearing? but I think that this is an RMLI collar badge as worn on the No1 Dress. If anyone has a copy of "From Trench and Turret" by S.M.Holloway, looking at the photos opposite page 98, there are three RMLI o/rs wearing No1 Dress and showing quite clearly the badge? worn as a collar badge, and it appears to be the same size as those shown in various posted photos being worn as a cap badge. From this I feel that the badge worn as the cap badge was not a defaced RMLI badge but simply the RMLI collar badge? Anyone got a better idea? Robert You are spot on Robert, the collar/part band badge was worn by the support elements of the RMLI/RMA, including Labour companies until such time as the latter were granted their own badge. The Globe and Laurel had long been the accepted central crest of the Royal Marines as a whole and was surmounted by various devices to indicate principal sub-divisions such as the bugle for the infantry element, the bomb for artillery elements and various other emblems for the bands associated with principal naval ports. On that basis the collar (and in full dress shoulder strap) badge for all was the globe and laurel alone and it followed that support elements such as transport, engineers and labour wore the central device with no embellishment. This same emblem was often inscribed on the graves of the fallen. Interestingly even some of the RND sailors wore the globe and laurel badge too (when they were not part of the RND infantry battalions Anson, Nelson, etc) and there is a comment in the RM history of its dress that 'regulations' were not properly enforced during the period 1914-19. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 12 April , 2011 Share Posted 12 April , 2011 Thanks for that RWF. I couldn't really see any other options and it is nice to have my thoughts confirmed. Cheers, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossack Wolf Posted 13 April , 2011 Share Posted 13 April , 2011 Well would you believe it - I got that RM/RND set out to check on it & one of what I just presumed were his collars actually turns out to be a cap badge with the bugle cut off!!!! Not only is it larger than the collar but you can feel where it has had the bugle cut off - so that really does confirm what everyone has been saying & tallies in with the pictures too! I'm possibly changing my mind about selling it all now! Regards....Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 13 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 13 April , 2011 This one's been a fascinating journey where everyone seems to have been correct in arriving at different solutions. It would appear, from two separate sources, that the RMLI bugle topped 'Globe and Sphere' was adapted in the field for Cap Badge wear by some non infantry RND units; particularly in the field at Gallipoli. 'Globe and Crown' OSD collar badges were also worn as cap badges by various RMLI/RMA/RM Labour Units. The Chatham badge may also have been used in like manner. I am indebted to Frogsmile for worming out this from the RM History as it seems to permit the above "'regulations' were not properly enforced during the period 1914-19". As can be seen from an earlier period, the badge has seen a lot of applications... Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 13 April , 2011 Share Posted 13 April , 2011 This one's been a fascinating journey where everyone seems to have been correct in arriving at different solutions. It would appear, from two separate sources, that the RMLI bugle topped 'Globe and Sphere' was adapted in the field for Cap Badge wear by some non infantry RND units; particularly in the field at Gallipoli. 'Globe and Crown' OSD collar badges were also worn as cap badges by various RMLI/RMA/RM Labour Units. The Chatham badge may also have been used in like manner. I am indebted to Frogsmile for worming out this from the RM History as it seems to permit the above "'regulations' were not properly enforced during the period 1914-19". As can be seen from an earlier period, the badge has seen a lot of applications... Tim Collar badges were not worn on full dress, but a globe and laurel on the shoulder strap instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 13 April , 2011 Share Posted 13 April , 2011 Here you can see the bugle above the globe and laurel, thus demonstrating that having the latter separated was a long standing practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill24chev Posted 13 April , 2011 Share Posted 13 April , 2011 I was thinking of asking if the Bugle was seperate to the Globe & Laurel like the Crown & Lion on Current RM officeres/WO's Badges when on the TV An atique program showed a WW1 RMLI badge, mounted as a brooch, with bugle attached. Coincidence or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossack Wolf Posted 13 April , 2011 Share Posted 13 April , 2011 Hi Bob, The only thing I would like to add in regard to the glengarry badges that you have just illustrated is that the wreath completely surrounds the globe on those ( I have OR's & NCO's versions of them). It was only thanks to this thread that I got the set out which does indeed include an RMLI cap badge but with the bugle carefully cut off which is great as it confirms 100% everyone's suspicions about the cap badges in the pictures posted at the start of the thread! Best regards....Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 13 April , 2011 Share Posted 13 April , 2011 Hi Bob, The only thing I would like to add in regard to the glengarry badges that you have just illustrated is that the wreath completely surrounds the globe on those ( I have OR's & NCO's versions of them). It was only thanks to this thread that I got the set out which does indeed include an RMLI cap badge but with the bugle carefully cut off which is great as it confirms 100% everyone's suspicions about the cap badges in the pictures posted at the start of the thread! Best regards....Andy Yes, it's all been very interesting, as it is not well recorded. Best regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossack Wolf Posted 13 April , 2011 Share Posted 13 April , 2011 Yes, it's all been very interesting, as it is not well recorded. Best regards, I will try & see if I can get a couple of close-up photos of the cap badge I have to show where it has been cut off for people's reference! Regards....Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossack Wolf Posted 14 April , 2011 Share Posted 14 April , 2011 Ok, Here are a couple of pics of the badge I have which you can see where the bugle has been removed. As stated before, I always considered this to be a collar badge as I hadn't compared it but always thought it a slightly odd size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossack Wolf Posted 14 April , 2011 Share Posted 14 April , 2011 Also, I commented on this on the British Badge Forum & one of the guys there came up with this one in his collection which he considered an anomoly until I mentioned about this thread on the cap badges! Thanks to Tinto for these pics of his badge - very interesting that this one has a slider to it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 April , 2011 Share Posted 14 April , 2011 Ok, Here are a couple of pics of the badge I have which you can see where the bugle has been removed. As stated before, I always considered this to be a collar badge as I hadn't compared it but always thought it a slightly odd size. Very interesting Andy and the first time I have seen one where the bugle has been taken off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossack Wolf Posted 14 April , 2011 Share Posted 14 April , 2011 & the reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossack Wolf Posted 14 April , 2011 Share Posted 14 April , 2011 Very interesting Andy and the first time I have seen one where the bugle has been taken off. The thing is Bob, but for the discussion on here I would have been none the wiser & also Tinto from the badge forum too. It just shows you what you may have & not realise purely down to what is probably an un-authorised field adaption of a badge! I shall have to take a closer look at some of the other collars I have tucked away too just in case!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 April , 2011 Share Posted 14 April , 2011 The thing is Bob, but for the discussion on here I would have been none the wiser & also Tinto from the badge forum too. It just shows you what you may have & not realise purely down to what is probably an un-authorised field adaption of a badge! I shall have to take a closer look at some of the other collars I have tucked away too just in case!!! I feel sure that the badge of the globe and laurels, alone, was officially approved, it is just that men who had supply difficulties found their own way to improvise and overcome by using odd collar badges and 'adjusted' RMLI cap badges. Also, I commented on this on the British Badge Forum & one of the guys there came up with this one in his collection which he considered an anomoly until I mentioned about this thread on the cap badges! Thanks to Tinto for these pics of his badge - very interesting that this one has a slider to it! Interesting that there are no 'berries' on the laurels on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossack Wolf Posted 14 April , 2011 Share Posted 14 April , 2011 I feel sure that the badge of the globe and laurels, alone, was officially approved, it is just that men who had supply difficulties found their own way to improvise and overcome by using odd collar badges and 'adjusted' RMLI cap badges. Or possibly it was just easier for the depots to clip the bugle off before issuing them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 April , 2011 Share Posted 14 April , 2011 Or possibly it was just easier for the depots to clip the bugle off before issuing them? No I would doubt that very much Andy. It would still be a military offence to 'deface' insignia, so whereas an individual might get away with it, I don't think it would ever have had the official sanction that clipping in stores would have necessitated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossack Wolf Posted 14 April , 2011 Share Posted 14 April , 2011 No I would doubt that very much Andy. It would still be a military offence to 'deface' insignia, so whereas an individual might get away with it, I don't think it would ever have had the official sanction that clipping in stores would have necessitated. That's true I guess, I can't say I've ever seen reference to a cap badge officially made without the bugle though - but then again we've only just discovered these oddities! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 14 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2011 Thanks for some great digging around Andy and some really interesting photographs making your point. I hesitate to introduce more conjecture but there's something not quite right about Tinto's badge. Is it just me or does the globe sit very low in the laurels leaving too much space between the top and the laurel tips. It's as if it's waiting for something to sit on top of it. Perhaps it's just the photo... Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossack Wolf Posted 14 April , 2011 Share Posted 14 April , 2011 Hi Tim, It's made for an interesting topic. I see what you both mean about Tinto's badge & ironically I kept looking at it thinking something was odd without even noticing the berries were missing! In regard to my badge, you can 'feel' where the bugle has been removed. What's nice with my one is that it came with the chaps medals, i.d.tag, i.d. bracelet, RND shoulder title, RM collar, the cap badge we have now identified, a photo of him & a bunch of buttons. Regards.....Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 14 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2011 Andy, Have you made any attempt to trace your man or view his MIC ? Be interesting to see if he was at Gallipoli and if 'clipping the bugle' was a practice localised to that arena (see Sepoy's earlier postings). Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossack Wolf Posted 14 April , 2011 Share Posted 14 April , 2011 Andy, Have you made any attempt to trace your man or view his MIC ? Be interesting to see if he was at Gallipoli and if 'clipping the bugle' was a practice localised to that arena (see Sepoy's earlier postings). Tim I have a copy of his service record from the NA. I'll have a look but don't recollect mention of Gallipolli in it! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 April , 2011 Share Posted 14 April , 2011 That's true I guess, I can't say I've ever seen reference to a cap badge officially made without the bugle though - but then again we've only just discovered these oddities! Musicians badges were made without the bugle and a separate device was worn above for each of the bands associated with a principal naval port (from memory Portsmouth, Plymouth and Chatham (all RMLI), plus a RMA divisional band at Eastney). In other cases collar badges seem to have been worn. Add to these any 'clipped' badges and you can see there would be quite a number of single globe and laurels badges. By 1912 there were more than four hundred bandboys under instruction at the Royal Naval School of Music and, by the following year, the School could muster fourteen hundred musicians of all ranks, many of them serving with the fifty-three Royal Marine Bands. During the Great War of 1914-1918 Royal Marine Bands not only served in ships of the Royal Navy but also with the Royal Naval Brigades at Gallipoli and elsewhere. No less than five (possibly six) adornments to cap badges and/or helmet plates have been specifically awarded for services to the Crown to be worn with the globe and laurels by the RM bands. These included PoW Feathers, White rose of York, and a Royal Cypher. Following WW1 the 'RMB' shoulder title and, later, the cap badge with the lyre was introduced for the men of the Royal Marine Bands. The Divisional Bands all did a tour of duty with the 63rd Royal Naval Division on the Western Front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossack Wolf Posted 14 April , 2011 Share Posted 14 April , 2011 Musicians badges were made without the bugle and a separate device was worn above for each of the bands associated with a principal naval port (from memory Portsmouth, Plymouth and Chatham, plus a divisional band at Eastney). In other cases collar badges seem to have been worn. Add to these any 'clipped' badges and you can see there would be quite a number of single globe and laurels badges. I always forget about the musicians Btw Bob, have you got any other images of Victorian NCO's like the one further up (sergeants upwards preferably), I am trying to resolve a shoulder strap question I have in regard to them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now