tn.drummond Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 Help please - I've trawled Kipling & King, Gaylor and all manner of other references (books and net) but can't match a likeness for this badge. He's wearing spurs and this, combined with bandolier, confirm his as a trooper or driver of some sort, but what ? At first I thought the badge was topped by a hackle but on closer inspection am pretty sure the cap just has a very distinctive front seam. The outer design seems akin to a laurel but more ornate and is a semi-circle only. The centre contains a sphere (maybe even a rose), possibly mounted on material within the outer design. All in all it seems most similar to the bottom two thirds of a a R.M.L.I or R.M Labour Corps badge which, of course, it isn't ! Utterly flummoxed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 Help please - I've trawled Kipling & King, Gaylor and all manner of other references (books and net) but can't match a likeness for this badge. He's wearing spurs and this, combined with bandolier, confirm his as a trooper or driver of some sort, but what ? At first I thought the badge was topped by a hackle but on closer inspection am pretty sure the cap just has a very distinctive front seam. The outer design seems akin to a laurel but more ornate and is a semi-circle only. The centre contains a sphere (maybe even a rose), possibly mounted on material within the outer design. All in all it seems most similar to the bottom two thirds of a a R.M.L.I or R.M Labour Corps badge which, of course, it isn't ! Utterly flummoxed. Possibly a Colonial regiment? It certainly doesn't look like any British Army unit that I have ever seen--- favourite would be Canadian? Good luck, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sepoy Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 Dear Utterly flummoxed It is the Royal Marines "Globe and Laurel" as worn by the Royal Naval Divisional Engineers, Royal Marines Medical Unit and other RND support units who were administered by the Marines. Their medals were simply named RM, which has caused some to believe they were late awards issued after the RMLI and RMA amalgamation. Hope this helps Sepoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 I think it's a lighting issue - to me it looks like the Queen's Own Worcestershire Hussars. (Yeomanry). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sepoy Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 A few examples from my photograph collection..... The chap on the camel is my Great Uncle - Deal (S) 400 Sapper David Maxwell Gordon, 2nd Field Company, RND Engineers who served throughout the Gallipoli Campaign. Sepoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 The "Seam" is I think you'll find the Chinstrap tucked under the bottom of the wreath portion of the Badge....it certainly does look to be RM origin?? HB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 I think it's a lighting issue - to me it looks like the Queen's Own Worcestershire Hussars. (Yeomanry). I must admit on looking again more closely, that I too was drawn towards the QOWH, but now having seen the pictures posted by Sepoy, I'm afraid that I feel that this RND/RM badge has to be the most likely. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 Did not the RM various units have wee things on top of the globe, like Crowns and Lions and Horns, etc? Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 11 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2011 First of all I'm afraid I have discounted the QOWH each time I pick up the photograph, but it still makes me pensive. They were my first thought as I've a number of photo's of this regiment but the shape and form just don't match under magnification; this badge is far more rounded and regular. Sepoy's suggestions are fascinating and the image on the right looks most similar. I had no idea that RND engineers wore RM badges and it does raises a secondary question of what topped their 'Globe & Laurel' ? The infantry bugle I suppose. One point I still can't quite get my head around is why a Royal Naval Division Engineer is wearing spurs and a bandolier in a studio portrait. Just doesn't feel right. Can I ask Sepoy if the picture on the right is also of his Uncle in confirmed RND/RM garb as this would tend to allay my doubts. If not, do I return to the Worcester Hussars ? Ooh er. Grateful to all. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sepoy Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 My Great Uncle's badge, now in my collection, is obviously a RMLI badge with the horn removed. Unfortunately, I cannot gain access to it at present to scan and post a photo of it. The badge was worn by the following:- RND Engineers RM Medical Unit RND Divisional Train (Service Corps equivalent) RND Ordnance Company I Have a feeling that a RND/RM Labour unit wore the badge prior to the formation of the Royal Marines Labour Corps in 1917 Unfortunately, I do not know who the person is, in the right hand photograph shown above but he is probably a member of the Divisional Train. Sepoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 Sepoy: Not doubting the provenance of your g/u's badge (and super photograph) but was it common for the badges to be thus disfigured? It seems odd to get three photos of different men each with a broken badge. We'd have been up on a charge. Yours, Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sepoy Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 Antony, I assume that as my Uncle was serving with MEF in out of the way places, like Lemnos, following the Gallipoli evacuation, he simply took what was to hand ie a RMLI badge and then neatly removed the horn! it has not been snapped off. These guys were not RMLI and wanted their own insignia. I assume others may have used RM Collar badges...... I also have a pair of RND shoulder titles with a separate E lead soldered on which did not belong to my Uncle. Sepoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sepoy Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 Another photograph showing RND Engineers at Blandford Forum. Unfortunately, I have failed to work out how to resize the photo to be able to post it on the Forum, but you can see the RND E Shoulder title being worn as well as the 1903 Bandolier. If I can work out the how to resize on Photoshop, I will post the full photo. Sepoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 On reflection, yes; it's the crown-less RM badge. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sepoy Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 The full photo! By the way Wilfendo, do you have a name for the chap in your photograph???? Sepoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 11 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2011 Hi Sepoy - terrific full photo, many thanks. Sorry to be a complete and utter pedant but, with the possible exception of the guy crossed legged bottom right, my comment about the hidden bugle top still applies. Unfortunately my chap is anonymous and the studio unnamed but it is definitely a UK postcard back. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sepoy Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 Does this close up help? These guys clearly do not have anything on top of the Globe and Laurel. Sepoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 11 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2011 I think it nails it. The question I now have is was the badge officially authorized (which I'm feeling must be the case given previous comments) and (definitively) to whom. Great work and many thanks. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 I think it nails it. The question I now have is was the badge officially authorized (which I'm feeling must be the case given previous comments) and (definitively) to whom. Great work and many thanks. Tim This may or may not be the badge which these men are wearing? but I think that this is an RMLI collar badge as worn on the No1 Dress. If anyone has a copy of "From Trench and Turret" by S.M.Holloway, looking at the photos opposite page 98, there are three RMLI o/rs wearing No1 Dress and showing quite clearly the badge? worn as a collar badge, and it appears to be the same size as those shown in various posted photos being worn as a cap badge. From this I feel that the badge worn as the cap badge was not a defaced RMLI badge but simply the RMLI collar badge? Anyone got a better idea? Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 11 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2011 Hi Robert - I've uploaded a visible collar dog from a picture in my collection but it is a small image. I do agree that the badge is similar but I think it too small to be the same. I know I'm biased but I return to my earlier assertion that the 'Chatham' cap badge, without extras, was in currency and could therefore have been adopted. It seems to me that I need to find out the authorising authority to get a definitive answer on this and that information, at present, is not known to me. Thanks very much for your input. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossack Wolf Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 Hi Tim, As requested I popped over here & had a look at the pics. What you might find interesting is that I have (somewhere) a set of medals etc to a RM in the RND as a medic, with his bits & pieces there were two 'collars' but now I am going to get them out again & check to make sure they are collars!! I have a photo of him also but know he is not wearing a cap in the picture which is a shame. regards....Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 11 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2011 Thanks Andy - any input would be welcome as this one is teasing me. Cheers Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 Hi Robert - I've uploaded a visible collar dog from a picture in my collection but it is a small image. I do agree that the badge is similar but I think it too small to be the same. I know I'm biased but I return to my earlier assertion that the 'Chatham' cap badge, without extras, was in currency and could therefore have been adopted. It seems to me that I need to find out the authorising authority to get a definitive answer on this and that information, at present, is not known to me. Thanks very much for your input. Tim Hi Wilfendo, I think that you will find that the collar used on the No1 Dress is exactly the same size as the cap badge, very much like OSD bronze collars are exactly the same size as the OSD bronze cap badge. Unforunately I do not have the expertise to post the pictures from the book which I mentioned previously--if I did you would see exactly what I mean. Regards, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 11 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2011 Robert, forgive my spanner head, but what do you mean by OSD ? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 11 April , 2011 Share Posted 11 April , 2011 Robert, forgive my spanner head, but what do you mean by OSD ? Tim Hi Tim, Officers Service Dress. Apologies, I wasn't trying to be clever, honest!! Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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