Position on Kiretch Tepe Sirt

[Krithia]

Hi Michael,

some excellent pencil drawings I have not seen before. The one of the Pimple is particularly interesting as it puts it where I knew it to be, but on this forum its location has been disputed many a time. Not to take this post on a new tangent, but interesting to see nevertheless. The good old RNAS MG boys, they seemed to have served everywhere on the Peninsula!

[Guest]

I has been nearly a year since this thread last saw active service...... I happened to be at the Royal Hampshire Regiment Museum today and the Secretary to the Trustees Lt Col Colin Bulleid kindly gave me access to the Regimental archives. Among the papers and albums of the 1/8th Hampshire Regt (TF) The Isle of Wight Rifles were two photos of 'One Tree Gully' which I have posted below. I think the smaller one will match very closely with one of Gully Ravine and V Beach's pictures.

My best guesstimate from the bright sunlight and the info contained in the 163rd Bde War diary and 1/8th Hants War Diary is that these photos were taken sometime between 18th-28th Aug 1915when the units were in the area of Kiretch Tepe Sirt). Interesting to see the MGs sited bang in the middle of the open area and the photographer clearly standing up.

With thanks to the Trustees of the Royal Hampshire Regiment Trust. Please respect the copyright. MG

[Neil2]

They're brilliant Martin. Any thoughts on whether the camera is pointing to the east or to the west? (Don't want much, do I?)

[Guest]

They're brilliant Martin. Any thoughts on whether the camera is pointing to the east or to the west? (Don't want much, do I?)

I would sincerely hope the Isle of Wight Rifles were pointing their MGs at the enemy (!), so the photographer is facing West and the MGunners are facing East. Assuming the IoW Riles were on the British side, the smaller pic is taken pointing East. I.e the machine gunners would be just over the brow.

I think that the ground has hardly changed. I have photos of the area and I think among the GWF community we can find a good match.

MG

[RobL]

Martin, I missed you by two days, I was there on Tuesday and took photographs of the same ones you've posted, I do like the machine gun positions photograph - by any chance did you come across information/drawings of a Wolseley helmet modified to allow it to be worn whilst in the prone firing position? Apparently designed before the landings but not used

[Guest]

Martin, I missed you by two days, I was there on Tuesday and took photographs of the same ones you've posted, I do like the machine gun positions photograph - by any chance did you come across information/drawings of a Wolseley helmet modified to allow it to be worn whilst in the prone firing position? Apparently designed before the landings but not used

Sadly not Rob, but I did see a Wolsey helmet at the Duke of Edinburgh's Museum that had been shot through the brim and had taken the owner's eye out. He survived.

Lt Col Bulleid was extremely helpful at the Royal Hampshire Regt Museum. The journals are a gold mine.

MG

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

I ma confused here?

Why would you place MG's in this sort of position, three MG s in a row in the forward firing position?

If you look at the three (that I can see) draw up in a line and not to a flank to give cross fire?

Also why place MG's next to such an object that is so easier seen, like a lone tree, an artillery obsverers dream target?

Strange photo to my way of thinking

S.B

[Guest]

Clearly a staged photo. It is all rather unlikely. At that time Lone Tree Gully was behind the front line. The idea that the photographer is standing up in front of what we are being lured into believing is the front line is clearly showing us this is staged. The aim of posting this was to show the elusive 'lone tree'.

MG

[AndyR]

Hi Martin

Fascinating photos as always - though the quality isn't great - they look like newspaper (or Illustrated London News, etc) cuttings?

As you say a match might well be possible - I thought for a moment that the hillside in the first one looked very like the far hillside in Gully Ravine's #135 ... but then I realised the photos are taken in the opposite directions ... oops!! .... so perhaps a match might be very hard to be sure of ...

Thanks again

Andy

[Guest]

Unfortunately I had a small unsophisticated camera and the original images were in the Journal and less than the size of a matchbox. It would be interesting to track down the original negatives.

[Gully Ravine]

I have a photo taken from (I believe) very near to the spot where the larger photo in post #152 was taken, looking in the same direction. I was standing a bit to the left so it shows the tree against the slope of the hill. However, I am now less convinced than I was a while ago that it is 'the tree' having looked at Martin's photo. Very difficult to tell after almost 100 years! I'll check again.

I agree with Martin re the photo being 'posed' - no obvious reason to have the MGs there from the maps I have / terrain in that area. This is just the middle of a fairly flat (but rising eastwards) meadow with the front line being to the East by a few hundred yards.

I also have a doubt about 'the shadow of the photographer' in the picture (if that is what it is). It is in the wrong direction when compared to that of the tree and he looks to have a rounded steel helmet on.

[Gully Ravine]

I have found the photo mentioned previously and post it here - but I don't think it helps. Need another visit to get the angles and distance right. Anyone have any thoughts on the image in post #152 re whether it is the photographer's shadow?

Keith

[Guest]

Keith - thanks for the photo. It looks promising. I know we spent some time trying to pinpoint the location with the map overlays...do you have a Google Earth Grid ref for this photo?

MG

[Gully Ravine]

Hi Martin

Try LAT 40.329, LON 26.2641. There is a shadow there which (I suspect)is the tree in question.

Keith

[Kurt1959]

Here some sketches from the files of LTC Willmer, Cdr of 11 ID on Kirec Tepe. I also attach again a recce report, which also belong to the above discussed area.

here the recce report - 3 pages

next

and sketch

[Kurt1959]

Another Turkish/German sketch

and this one

[Kurt1959]

And here is a sketch of the Turkish/German machine gun positions on Kirec Tepe on 25th August 1915. Unfortunately it will be difficult to locate them exactly because there is no reference point.

[AndyR]

Hi

Don't know how I missed these on IWM before (and thanks to anyone who's had them newly digitised!)

but here is One Tree (very similar to Martin's first):

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205307183

and two others from the same collection (Lieutenant Colonel S C Byrne Commanding Officer of the 1/11th County of London Battalion London Regiment, 162nd Brigade, 54th East Anglian Division) of 'Brigade Gully' on Kiretch southern slopes

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205307189

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205307171

AndyR

Edited 28 August , 2013 by AndyR

[Guest]

Hi

Don't know how I missed these on IWM before (and thanks to anyone who's had them newly digitised!)

but here is One Tree (very similar to Martin's first):

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205307183

and two others from the same collection (Lieutenant Colonel S C Byrne Commanding Officer of the 1/11th County of London Battalion London Regiment, 162nd Brigade, 54th East Anglian Division) of 'Brigade Gully' on Kiretch southern slopes

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205307189

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205307171

AndyR

Andy -

Great photos..... as you point out Byrne was with the 1/11th London Regt (Finsbury Rifles) who were in the vicinity of Lone tree Gully between 15th-21st Aug 1915. Byrne took over the Bde when de Winton was wounded on 15th Aug...

162nd Bde War Diary, 15th Aug 1915. In response to a further application for the GOC 10th DIV for a greater rapidity of advance – the Brig accompanied by Lt Col BYRNE 1/11th LONDON REG and by the Brig Maj. went up to the advance lines of troops – a “lead” being evidently necessary especially on the left of the line. The heavy fire encountered checked the advance and the line fell back considerably mis-organised Brig Gen DE WINTON was wounded whilst leading forward the troops. It was found desirable to delay the advance of the left portion of the line until the troops became somewhat more organised. In the meantime the right half of the line was making some progress under Lt Col BRIGHTEN 1/5th BEDFORD REG although suffering considerable casualties. At this stage about 17:00 Brig Gen DE WINTON owing to his wounds had to give up command of the Bde and messages to that effect were sent by the Brig Maj to Lt Col BYRNE 1/11th LONDON REG. It was now found possible to lead forward the troops on the left front and after considerable opposition KIDNEY HILL was occupied by them just before dusk.Arrangements were at once made for its defence which were not too well advanced when darkness came in – good use however was made of existing Turkish trenches. The Brig Maj who had accompanied the advance of the portion of the line now decided to leave KIDNEY HILL in charge of Maj DAVIS 1/11th LONDON REG and of Capt COWLEY 1/10th LONDON REG and to endeavour to return to BDE HQ. As all communication has been lost and the report as to the capture of KIDNEY HILL was important also because he was uncertain as to the command not knowing whether Lt Col BYRNE had been in a position to take it up. He reached BDE HQ at about 22:00. At about 00:00 Capt CROWLEY 1/10th LONDON REG reports to BDE HQ that having been surrounded by large numbers of the enemy they had been obliged to evacuate KIDNEY HILL and had fallen back upon the line 136 V 1 to 136 V 4-7. During this time the right position of the attack under Lt Col BRIGHTEN 1/5th BEDFORD REG having seized the line 136 V 4 to 118 A 4 proceeded to entrench and consolidate the ground gained.

[AndyR]

Thanks Martin

An interesting account to go with the photos - I was confused by the captioning of "successful attack" as I thought the attack on Kidney Hill failed - but they obviously did succeed - at least in the immediate short term.

Also came across this one which I hadn't noticed before but I guess others may have seen:

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205284263

I would be interested in a second opinion of this one too from the same collection (Lt CN Graham)

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205284291

Most of his are from Helles, but a few are Suvla, and this one looks like the north slopes of Kiretch Tepe to me - though there's not much to go on?

Thanks

Andy

[Guest]

I think 'successful' was a loose term at Gallipoli. Kidney Hill was not taken if I recall correctly. At any stage. In fact the distinct lack of coordination between units (which was almost a signature feature of the Gallipoli campaign) arguably killed this assault before anyone crossed the start-line. the Diaries are replete with accusations of failure against the neighbouring troops regarding Kidney Hill assaults ...in the case of Kidney Hill particularly the lack of coordination between the units of the 10th (Irish) Div and the 54th (East Anglian) Div (in my view) highlights the tacit tension between these particular Kitchener Divs and the TF Divs. It was failure on many levels.

Both photos are Suvla in my opinion....the first is from the southern slopes of KTS looking ESE and the second is looking towards Boot from the N slopes of KTS where it meets the sea. I have modern photos that almost match. Will post in a few days as I am travelling ......without access to my data base.

MG

[AndyR]

I think ‘Brigade Gully’ in IWM Q57878 (http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205307189) must be the gully immediately south of One Tree Gully.

A GE ‘picture’ from there seems to match pretty well.

Andy

[Timbob1001]

Would anyone have any modern pictures/period of Kiretch Tepe Sirt I could use for a WW1 Centenary exhibition?

Am specifically looking at the 5th Bn Royal Irish Regiment who were drawn in late in the day on the 15th

Thanks

Tim

[Norrette]

On 16/10/2014 at 21:05, Timbob1001 said:

Would anyone have any modern pictures/period of Kiretch Tepe Sirt I could use for a WW1 Centenary exhibition?

Am specifically looking at the 5th Bn Royal Irish Regiment who were drawn in late in the day on the 15th

Tim, there are some on this thread that might be of use - Naturally, ask for the pal's permission

 

Norrette

[michaeldr]

Would anyone have any modern pictures/period of Kiretch Tepe Sirt I could use for a WW1 Centenary exhibition?

Am specifically looking at the 5th Bn Royal Irish Regiment who were drawn in late in the day on the 15th

Tim,

Westlake in his 'British Regiments at Gallipoli' has the 5^th (Service) Battalion (Pioneers) The Royal Irish Regiment in 'positions on the extreme left of the front line.'

The CO of the 5^th RIF made some brilliant sketches at Suvla including the one shown below

This illustrates perfectly the 'extreme left' of the British line on Kiretch Tepe Sirt

I include my own 2013 photograph below, merely as confirmation that the whole of the ground there all along the north side of the ridge, is indeed a steep slope down to the sea.

regards

Michael