Position on Kiretch Tepe Sirt

[Neil2]

Next example: the Bond Street area?

This method comes into its own pretty well when you see trenches and paths going round the sandy areas. You can also see (though not very clearly here, I admit) the white trenches cut from the rick running under the tracing lines.

[Neil2]

Next example - the Graveyard.

Here you can clearly see the alignment of the trenches/paths around the sandy area. I know you have to take my word for it without seeing the whole thing but this tracing fell slap on top of that area when everything else was lined up. The dots represent (I believe) dug-outs and are traced through from the Turkish map. Now - applying the information from the British schematic drawings of the the trenches (can't really be called maps) it is clear that Lone tree Gully joins the Graveyard at the top corner. And therefore that line going off to the left should be it, travelling over the top of the sandy patch. To confuse things a little there is, you can see, another traingular trench formation above (with a similarly shaped but darker sand-patch bang underneath it.) I think the lower one is the Graveyard after hours poring over the schematic drawings. One feature of all this is that the dugouts invariably appear where there is sand (easier than rock) - and that happens all over the map. And The Graveyard (assuming it was a real graveyard rather than a ghoulishly named reserve area) would also have been, logically, sandy.

More later...

[AndyR]

Neil

Thanks - an impressive labour of love - I look forward to the follow-up promised.

Looks like I have to admit to being wrong on two counts here:

1. The location of the Grave Yard & Lone Tree Gulley.

2. How far the 5th Inniskillings got - the war diary you kindly pointed me at says they reached 136.Q4-5 (19:15 15/8) which suggests they did indeed clear the Projektor Tepe trenches and even reached Kidney Hill.

AndyR

[Guest]

Hi - I am very late to this post (away skiing). Does this image help you? It is from the Sevki Pasha maps. Kidney Hill (KH) - top right - and the other intermediate hill - slightly north of centre - between KH and the British positions are pretty clear. The distance from the centre of KH to this intermediate hill is 455 yds - so pretty close to "400 yds" given the effect of foreshortening looking across a hillside.(military map-reading 101). The straight red line shows the direct distance between the 2 points (and if extended to the left would roughly indicate the line of attack from the British (blue) trenches. When overlaid on GE this all corresponds with your other maps. The centre of this hill (where the straight red line ends) is 40°20'11.65"N 26°16'17.36"E. Jephson's Post is the blue bulge in the British trench system Second post will be in 3D. Regards MG

P.S. I was going to ask if anyone knows exactly who Juvenis is, but I see on one of the posts that Orr has likely identified him. The 5th Bn R Innis Fus 2IC sounded like a really interesting character.

[Guest]

And in 3D. FYI the 5th Bn War Diary mentions the attack reaching 136 Q 4-5 by 16:30 by which time they had suffered massive casualties - Officers: 6 Killed and 14 wounded (some of whom later died of wounds) and ORs: 28 killed, 230 wounded, and 78 missing. Total casualties 20 officers and 336 ORs. I think either Juvenis or Verscoyle writing that none of the missing returned. MG

[AndyR]

Fantastic Martin,

Puts my puny efforts to shame!

Any chance of you repeating the exercise a bit further down the slope in the area of Lone Tree Gully/Road & the Grave Yard?

Thanks in anticipation of your help

AndyR

[Guest]

Any chance of you repeating the exercise a bit further down the slope in the area of Lone Tree Gully/Road & the Grave Yard?

Does this cover the area? If not, let me know as I can add adjacent maps if necessary. It is not (yet) a perfect fit. I'll have to make a few minute adjustments but I think illustrates the topography. MG

[AndyR]

Thanks for trying Martin but unfortunately not - it looks like your map ends just before it reaches the area I am particularly interested in - I believe my grandfather, RAMC, had a dressing station in Lone Tree Gully during the attack of the 15th/16th and I would love to track the location down reasonably definitively, but as I say it's just off the map you posted.

Thanks

Andy

[Guest]

Thanks for trying Martin but unfortunately not - it looks like your map ends just before it reaches the area I am particularly interested in - I believe my grandfather, RAMC, had a dressing station in Lone Tree Gully during the attack of the 15th/16th and I would love to track the location down reasonably definitively, but as I say it's just off the map you posted.Thanks Andy

If it is South of the previous Map, then this might help...The image is the same as before (upper part) with the adjacent southerly map fitted. If it is further West, I have that map too. Let me know the GE grid point and I will get the right map if this one isn't right. Can do these in 3D if required. Regards MG

[Guest]

And the above in 3D projection. I hope it helps. MG

[Guest]

The Sevki Pasha map fit is as good as it gets (I think I have well over 50 good reference points) and relating the trench patterns with the maps in Michaeldr's posts 27 and 39 and Gully Ravine's post 48 and 55 the distinctive triangle of trenches around the graveyard is easy to spot. (Munster St and Dublin St being 2 of these) with Lone Tree Gully running straight into it from the west. The graveyard today is a flat open piece of land in a dog-tooth shape) I have this junction at roughly 40°19'46.86"N 26°15'58.32"E. More importantly when the map is faded out, the track follows very closely to natural features. Also the 'camps' shown on the Sevki Pasha maps have a high correlation with open flat spaces that are still visible. The two images attached should show this. I have plotted what I think is Lone Tree Gully in Blue - looking back at previous posts it seems close to what others have proposed. The Sevki Pasha maps fit very well with the modern landscape. If you took a Garmin to the grid, I think the path would be self evident. I walked this ground last July and I am pretty sure I went over these flat areas. they are still littered with the omnipresent rum jar fragments as they are now cultivated fields and the ploughs turn fragments uo. I hope this helps locate your Grandfather's dressing station.

I will attach a close up 3D on the next post. MG

[Guest]

....and in 3D close up. Note the red '455 yard distance marker' from KH to the intermediate hill is still shown as a reference point further up the hillside. MG

[Neil2]

Spot on Martin. I was tracing same map, same conclusions.

[Guest]

This photo was taken at approximately 40°19'40.46"N 26°15'42.90"E on 14th July last year on my way back down from the Pimple and Kidney Hill. It is 40 yards North of Lone Tree Gully (LTG). It is the location of a natural spring which is where one of the camps adjacent to Lone Tree Gulley was situated on one of the flat open spaces. It is a beautiful little spot after a hot climb over Kiretch Tepe and back. LTG is just off to the right. MG

[AndyR]

Martin,

Brilliant - thank you - that's exactly where I was after.

The photo is great as well.

I would interested from your knowledge of the area if you think the Hargrave sketch on post #44 in this thread could be in this area or whether you think it's likely somewhere else completely

Thanks

Andy

[Guest]

Here is a photo taken from Kiretch Tepe looking down towards LTG. I took this as I started the descent. The ground is extremely difficult and the paths or goat/tracks basically dictate the way. You can see how the open patches become a natural focus for anyone trying to cross-grain back to the beach road. I am very certain I walked the gully. I have tried to draw a blue line to correspond with the blue track on the previous posts. The Grave Yard site is clearly visible at the left end of the blue line.

As for the Pear Tree sketch - I don't have any conviction that it is in the same location from the sketch itself - the sides of the hills left and right of the Gully look too steep for the terrain we have been discussing, but that might just be artist's licence - however the text gives strong clues and we know his unit 32nd Fd Amb was in the area. I am not that familiar with the 32nd Fd Amb history and where they were exactly positioned - their war diary is thin.

In the book, Chapter XIV "The Sniper of Pear Tree Gully" he mentions the gullies of Kislar Dargh (I am not familiar with this name but I am sure it can be identified) and the Kapanja Sirt (aka Kiretch Tepe Sirt from the maps) and mentions RE telegraph wire (worth researching the comms routes) an old Turkish well (good ref point as wells were usually marked for obvious reasons) and the guns (good ref point) near the tents (ditto - the tents had to be on a flat open area) and later mentions the RE making a road (worth researching this part), a sandy spit of ground (there are a limited number of these as we know. "spit" might suggest a long narrow strip of sandy land) and eventually a pear tree with the sniper. Importantly he mentions looking up towards the mountains on his left - the lower ridge of Kapanja Sirt (i.e. Kiretch Tepe Sirt - which also confirms he is on the southern slope facing NNE ish).. later in Chapter XIX "The Retreat" he says that "Pear Tree Gully was a piece of ground which niether we nor the Turks could hold. It was a gap in both lines..." This last piece would suggest that it was a track that ran through both lines and ended up in no-man's land - maybe in the area of the Z that was eventually straightened out after Hargreave's unit moved.

One other key is he mentions in Chapter XIV "throughout these first days - Saturday, Sunday Monday - when the British and Turks grappled to and fro.." which fortuitously coincides with 14th 15th and 16th August 1915 i.e the exact same time as 10th Div was attempting to straighten the line....so I think this all adds up to a strong possibility that the North/East end of Pear Tree Gully was originally in no-man's land and ended up within the British front line (after Hargreaves had left). If it is not Lone tree Gully, then it is pretty close.

I have History of the Great War - Medical Services Vol IV by Maj-Gen Sir W G MacPherson but the maps are poor and don't help identify the dressing stations. I will look at 10th Div war diaries later this week and may revert if I find anything.

I am sure with a bit of detective work it is possible to identify Pear Tree Gully. Just my thoughts.

Any mistakes are mine. MG

[AndyR]

Martin,

Thanks for taking the time to reply with your long, thoughtful and insightful response - you have spotted things in "half an hour" in Hargrave's text that I have missed in a number of readings (my grandfather was also 32nd Field Ambulance). I agree that while not conclusive, the evidence would suggest that Pear Tree Gully and Lone Tree Gully are likely one and the same, as this area is almost directly below Jephson's Post and changed hands on a number of occasions in the period 7th to 17th/18th when the 32nd Fd. Amb. were in the area. My grandfather's reference is simply to "One Tree Gully" which I think must be the same place again, and I assume relates to a dressing station though it could simply refer to a stretcher bearing route. As I have mentioned in a previous post the area at the left hand end of your dotted line (or alternatively about half way along the line) looks like similar country to Hargrave's sketch and as you say there is likely some artistic licence involved!

I note your thoughts re tents, guns and sandy spit - I must look at the context in Hargave again but suspect that they (and maybe also the telegraph route) refer to the area of the camp - and may have already been touched on under the "Photos of 32nd Field Ambulance near Hill 10" thread. Your suggestion to investigate the Turkish well is also a good one that I will try to pursue. I was interested in your comment that the 32nd Fd. Amb. "is thin" as I haven't been able to find one at all for this period, but this may just be an NA indexing issue - or more likely my use of it!

Thanks again for your help - the maps, photo and thoughts have been very helpful.

AndyR

[AndyR]

Martin,

Sorry - should have re-read Hargrave before replying! As you have pointed out the passage is quite descriptive and maps out various landmarks (guns, tents, telegraph, etc - all on the hillside somewhere) along the route as you describe. I note that he also says that he "went now downhill into an overgrown water-course" and "then, as I crossed the little dry-bed stream and came out upon a sandy spit of rising ground ..". He takes cover behind a bush and notes "In front of my thorn-bush was an open space of pale yellow grass, with no cover at all". This dry-bed stream may be the bed of Azmak Dere which presumably runs through the Grave Yard area, and the open space with yellow grass might also fit the area looking at your photo. Finally I can even believe his sketch is a foreshortened version of this area (rotated to reflect the way he approached the area - i.e. West at the bottom) with Hargrave's bush being in the clear patch and with the thorns close behind - but probably I am just seeing what I want to believe!

Andy

[Guest]

Andy

I may be wrong on 32nd Fd Ambulance. I may be confusing it with one of the 11th Div Fd Ambulance diaries (I have read so many I forget). Have a look at the 10th Div Admin papers. If they are anything like the 11th Div there will be a huge box with lots of useful leads. Look for the CRA diaries which might contain references where the guns were deployed (I think I have a map somewhere with gun emplacements shown) and I recall that there was a 4 gun Mountain Battery in place at the beginning (certainly by the 15th Aug) supporting the attack on Kidney Hill. The Sevki Pasha maps show gun emplacements further West but that is much later in the campaign. The 32 Fd Amb diaries should be with the 10th Div Admin papers...

One other lead is to trawl the maps collection at the IWM and TNA. I know the TNA has some Artillery maps for sure but form memory these are Helles, not Suvla. I have the British 1:10,000 sheets 118 & 119 which rather frustratingly just miss your area of interest. You need to track down a copy of sheet 117 which should show a lot of detail and especially the wells (Kuyu in Turkish) and springs (Punar). The the dry stream will certainly be a tributary to Azmak Dere and should be clearly shown on the map. I have never seen the 117 sheet - I am pretty sure the TNA does not have one but their index of the map catalogue is shockingly bad and they only allow you to take out a limited number of maps per visit. I took me 6 months to get them to agree to make digital copies of sheets 118 and 119 and sheets 105 and 106, so if you go down this Byzantine route, grit your teeth......IWM might have it. I can't read the IWM Map CD as it was designed for steam powered PCs. You need the 1:10,000 scale as the smaller scale lose detail quickly. Better still ask Peter Doyle (GWF member) and co-author of the very excellent Grasping Gallipoli - the authority on mapping Gallipoli.

The RE diaries might indicate where the comms lines were laid. 65th 68th and 86th Field Companies or try the RE Museum at Chatham (the RE also made the maps, so another reason to quiz Chatham and see if they have sheet 117)

As an aside I was reading and transcribing some 11 Div diaries today. 11 Div occupied Jephson's Post on 19th Dec and the detailed withdrawal instructions mention the advanced dressing stations at Picadilly Circus, Karakol Gap and Lone Tree Gulley. Ref WO/95/4299 image p.109 and p.122.... It just made me think that you might also look at the war diaries of the other Field Ambulances that served in the same areas but at later dates for any clues. Ditto the diaries for the CCS's. It is likely that the Lone Tree Gully dressing station stayed in the same location. It's not my area but I am sure the Director Medical Services papers must have some info. ... lots of lines to pursue.

Regards MG

TNA ref for 10 Div papers is WO 95/4295 (includes some Fd Amb) and WO 95/4294 (includes CRA)

[AndyR]

Martin

Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately it's a long trip to the NA for me, but I'm planning to get there in the summer. I'll make sure I take a copy of your suggestions with me!

Thanks

Andy

[Neil2]

Andy, Martin -

First can I say what a fantastic set of posts you've put up. My low-tech tracing paper looks pretty dull now, I can tell you. I have WO 95/4296 but unfortunately neither of the other two. I can't find any mention of 32 Field Ambulance in what I've got but there's a mass of it and I'll let you know.

Martin - any thoughts about which route in your #107 might be Bond Street? I've been thinking perhaps the one with a long sap that goes forward through the line - listening post I guess?

[Guest]

Martin - any thoughts about which route in your #107 might be Bond Street? I've been thinking perhaps the one with a long sap that goes forward through the line - listening post I guess?

A great question. The short answer is that I think it is a good candidate, but there is a caveat - while front line trench maps needed to be accurate, the communication trench maps were sometimes represented in a more topological way....

The long answer - The map kindly shown by Michaedr in Post No.27 and repeated as the first map in Post No. 39 is a very good example of how maps can sometimes have different purposes and different qualities (I believe they are from one of the Divisional War Diaries - 10th or 11th Div from memory). This particular map has some of the typical characteristics of what is called "network topology"; All the (trench) junctions are correct relative to each other, but the lines connecting them (read trenches) are drawn rather too straight or too simplified, especially the rear areas and the communication trenches. In these areas, exact alignment is less important. All the military needed to know accurately is which two points the communication trenches connected. This kind of representation is useful in certain applications, especially for transit of troops. In a military context it is useful if you had to follow directions in the dark for example... "go up Lone tree Gully to Cross Street, turn right, then take the first left etc..." In these instances the exact distances and exact alignments between the junctions less important "just keep going until you get to the junction, then turn right"......... The London Underground Map is a supremely good example of topological mapping - familiar to most - where the nodes (junctions) are the important parts of the information and the connecting routes do not need to be as accurate in terms of alignment.

Also compare this map (Post No. 39) with the Sevki Pasha maps where trenches undulate and meander to follow the contours of the land. This seems more realistic as real trenches and communication trenches would optimise the use of dead ground - as aer photos clearly demonstrate. We also get something approaching this more realistic representation in some of the British 1:10,000 maps, e.g. Sheets 118 & 119 and Sheets 105 and 106 (sadly we don't have the critical Sheet 117 as discussed) although they still sometimes look as if parts were drawn with rulers.

For this reason, while this map (Post No. 27) is extremely useful, I think it is a less reliable reference point for identifying the exact alignment of Bond St. It's just too straight and look at the undulating ground it covers. Looking at the thread, most of the maps are either too small scale, too topological or both to use as accurate guides for Bond St. I have a collection of over 230 Gallipoli maps and most are schematic but some are cartographical gems (see an example below). It is not difficult to spot a properly surveyed map - they leap out of the War Diaries occasionally but so far I have not seen anything on the area in question with sufficient detail and accuracy to be used as a reliable template for Bond St.. Sevki Pasha has its own flaws but I would suggest Bond St is the next trench down, although it immediately raises questions on why it veers off South to then veers back North to meet the course of the British sketch maps as we move West.

If anyone is still awake by this part, it is a great frustration of mine that the maps in most publications are of little use for anyone wanting to accurately locate trenches in Gallipoli. This is why this forum is so useful. One hopes that our collective experience, resources and intuition can help unravel some of these questions. Where would we be without GE I wonder. It has moved these debates on by quantum leaps.

Maps aside I would think that if you walked the ground, thinking of the incoming 'overs' the alignment would become instantly apparent. The ground dictates.

These are just my thoughts. Any mistakes are mine. Regards MG

To illustrate my point - The map below is a good example of what a properly surveyed trench map looks like - from Quinn's Post compiled by Australian Sappers from 8th Fd Coy AE - compare to the more sketchy ones on Post No.39 (lower 2). To me there is no comparison. They even have the tell-tale surveying points and bearings. Beautiful work in such circumstances.

[Neil2]

That's a beauty. Yes, I'd agree - it's very hard to pin down Bond Street. (The Graveyard really had me scratching my head fopr a while too as there's a nearly identical structure above it.) What do you think are the flaws in the Sevki Pasha maps? I'm sure they're not perfect but given their good fit with GE landscapes I wondered what might be the issue there?

[Guest]

That's a beauty. Yes, I'd agree - it's very hard to pin down Bond Street. (The Graveyard really had me scratching my head fopr a while too as there's a nearly identical structure above it.) What do you think are the flaws in the Sevki Pasha maps? I'm sure they're not perfect but given their good fit with GE landscapes I wondered what might be the issue there?

For our purposes they are great especially as a broad overlay or base layer.

I am told that Sevki Pasha was not completely surveyed but was heavily based on earlier (inaccurate surveys) and therefore implicitly the intermediate contours were interpolated. Personally I am sceptical of this story; Which other series I wonder? It is nothing I can prove but they just have a 'feel' that they were done properly within the limits of available surveying technology. I have the complete set and have fitted them to GE. One problem is that they don't compensate properly for the curvature of the earth (think: Mercator projection) and that means when you try and fit them all together, the corners of 4 maps don't always align. To get them to align, one sacrifices what I call "fit-ness" with the real ground. Also some of the features like wells, springs, roads and tracks and particular buildings are completely missing in patches. - the stone buildings such as Cator's house are missing, ditto Owls Barn, White House etc which seems strange for such detailed survey work. We know these existed and there are photos of some - e.g Cator's House which is a substantial building by the standards of Suvla Bay. Also distinct tracks and roads mentioned in war diaries (e.g. track up to Torgut Chesme) are missing and when compared with the British 1:10,000 maps the gaps between the two are apparent. (I know the British maps were based on old inaccurate Turkish maps and may too have reproduced earlier errors). Other area of poor "fit-ness" is the north shoreline above Kiretch Tepe which really puzzles me and the alignment of Azmak Dere (ditto) although the latter's meander has certainly changed over the decades due to farming.

I use them extensively for my research along with the British maps. It is interesting to "double overlay" of British and Turkish maps over GE and fade them in and out to see where they agree (=reinforces geographic certainty e.g. gullies, hill, etc and trench alignment) and where they disagree (mostly trench alignment but occasionally examples as above). Personlly I think they are pretty good and having used the for a year there is a good consistency with the real ground. For geography I prefer Sevki Pasha but supplemented with the 1:10,000 series. (although I only have a few of these). It gets interesting overlaying sketch maps i.e. like those on this thread over the "double overlays" to see the fit-ness. One can then very quickly spot the accuracy.

One other area - when fitted to GE and turned into 3D, the contour lines should appear horizontal if the fit is perfect. Clearly GE is itself not perfect but you get my drift....In the hilly areas I fit the maps in the flat mode, then go into 3D and then pull and push the map to optimise the fit with the ridge-lines and attempt to get the contours as horizontal as possible. It is never perfect but one can get a pretty good fit-ness with a lot of tinkering. For these reasons I like using Sevki Pasha as my base layer and then fit the Brit maps to Sevki Pasha and then fade out Sevki Pasha and see what we get. My theory is to try and draw the best out of all sets of maps by using them in a collective manner if that makes sense.

I would say that for the purpose of locating trenches the narrative in the diaries helps considerably - as many of these threads show. While there is no absolute proof, I think it is axiomatic that these maps are accurate enough to get us to the right location to find individual trenches (or Lone Trees for that matter) and then as I suggest in the previous post the lie of the land will often reveal the rest. That has been my experience in and around Chocolate Hill/Scimitar Hill. As the terrain become steeper we often get more reference points. The one big disadvantage is the oak-holly which obfuscates a lot of the ground. Eric Goosens (GWF Member Plummed Goose) tells me that a few years ago the scrub burned down just NE of Scimitar Hill and all sorts of hidden trench lines and some paraphernalia were revealed. MG

P.S. One of my long term aims is to fund a proper digital survey of Gallipoli and put the results on line for free. As I have argued before, I think terrain was more important in Gallipoli than in most other theatres of WWI.

PPS Where are the aer photos? Hundreds if not thousands were taken. They are MIA.

[Guest]

AndyR

I was at TNA yesterday and stumbled on a map which shows the location of the dressing station on Lone Tree Gully (see below). It was buried in the 11th Div Admin papers (not available on line). I have attached a crop with a red asterisk next to the location. The map was signed by Capt J D Coleridge GS XI Div. (As an aside, this is the staff officer that did a recce on the 8th Aug of the Div positions. It was was an important episode and was cited as hard evidence of inertia and inactivity in later criticism of 11th Div - see OH). The map is dated 29th Sep 1915. It is easy to relate this sketch map to the other maps on this thread. and equally easy to locate the current location on GE. I hope this helps your research. Regards MG

P.S. I photographed each page of the diary and am going through it over the next few weeks. These are the Div Admin papers (WO 95/4297 and WO 95/4298), not the Bde, and Bn diaries which are available online (WO 95/4299). MG