Horses and Mules after the War

[Guest]

Who I am I to tell an old bloke his memory is wrong. But after all the old soldiers have now pasted do we still print the legand or do we print the true.

Yes, there is nothing to be gained from challenging the old soldiers, what few of them remain today.

We have to be careful though to aim for historical accuracy when we can, but the fact that there is a legend is part of the history.

[terryb95]

Some official unit history from the Australian War memorial

1st Light Horse Regiment

The final British offensive of the campaign was launched along the Mediterranean coast on 19 September 1918, with the ANZAC Mounted Division taking part in a subsidiary effort east of the Jordan aimed at Amman. Turkey surrendered on 30 October 1918. The 1st Light Horse Regiment sailed for Australia on 12 March 1919 without their horses, which were either shot or transferred to Indian cavalry units.

3rd Light Horse Regiment

The final British offensive of the campaign was launched along the Mediterranean coast on 19 September 1918, with the ANZAC Mounted Division taking part in a subsidiary effort east of the Jordan aimed at Amman. Turkey surrendered on 30 October 1918. The 3rd Light Horse Regiment sailed for Australia on 16 March 1919 without their horses, which were either shot or transferred to Indian cavalry units.

[Guest MaryFM]

Kate

Thanks for telling me about the Brooke Hospital, I had heard of it years ago when I used get the "horse and hound" but didn't know how it was founded.

I can well imagine sadly as Tim mentioned a lot of the horses would have been used for food which I do find an awful situation but can understand the reason for it. During WW2 my father whilst working for RAF went for a meal in a London Restaurant and was thoroughly enjoying it until one of his mates told him it was horse, he stopped eating it, my father had such a soft spot for horses and used to help out in stables in Greenock when a boy.

I was really just hoping that the horses didn't get discarded by the wayside after they had contributed to our war effort.

Best wishes

Mary

[Guest dinkidi]

G'day Terry.

Spot on mate! Info on any WW1 topic is findable on the AWM database. I know there is at least one photo of horses being auctioned to civilians, think it was around Poperinghe in Belgium, but can't turn it up at the moment.

G'day Steve

This is a dangerous topic, when we get to question the "memories" of the ALH veterans. As stated above, I personally knew only 1 trooper. His son confirmed very vividly that his horse WAS shot, and that parts of it appeared on the dinner table.

So to quote statistics, the myth was 100% true in my limited experience.

Pat

[Geoff S]

All I can repeat is that I was informed by a now-dead Lighthorseman - who was there, unlike Idriess and Bluegum - that he witnessed some mates shooting their own horses.

Gidday Ducky,

This topic has been covered quite extensively on the ALH website, but always seems to resurface.

I am aware for many people it is an emotive issue, but the information supplied by Rob T is accurate. I have read nothing to contradict his assessment. I have read extensively about the Australian Light Horse in the Great War and cannot find any evidence to support the mass destruction of horses by their riders at the end of the war.

My G-G/father was a Farrier Sgt at the end of the war in the Anzac Mtd Div. I was fortunate to have spoken to him quite frequently about his war service prior to his death at the age of 94. He was a wonderful man. He could recall many happy and sad details or incidents, 70 years after the events. He never romanticised or lied about his war. In fact, he would have wanted to tell you he thought all wars were foolish & a dreadful waste of lives. (that one's for you Pop) I never witnessed him embellish his service to those that asked. He loved the three horses he rode during the three & half years he served O/S. He never spoke about any mass destruction of horses by their men at the end of the war. He never did because I am afraid the truth is it just never happened.

Yes many horses were shot DURING the war, but as a result of injuries sustained in battle or accidents. After, or even during the course of an engagement horses were shot if they were badly injured and suffering. Perhaps this is what was witnessed.

Cheers

Geoff S

With the passing of Bert Whitmore almost two years ago now, I think it's the appropriate time to bravely get the facts correct, for those men (light horsemen) were a unique breed.

[Guest stevenbec]

Of Cause what we a talking about is the death of horses by soldiers. This is not something you did on a whim so the nasty egypto/arab didn't get them.

Now the old bloke down the road from Duckman never said he saw the shooting of horses by him or did it. Only that he heard about it and it being done by some (two) of his mates.

Yes it is an evotive subject by old soldiers and the so called new Historians, which have a foot in both worlds.

But the old bloke may have heard that a few horses may have been put down by two soldiers does not a cake make.

Did they do it under Vet Officers orders? Did they just go out and shot them and how did they explan it to their chain of Command as shooting of good amimals is a GCM (General Court Marical) offence (distruction of Goverment property). Are we missing something.

Or its this just another one of those emotive stories told by us old veterns from time to time when we look back and think about it.

Or would you rather shoot him and tell a little lie or not shoot him and tell a little lie.

S.B

[terryb95]

Waler: horse on display in the Australian War Memorial's Palestine gallery

Walers were called thus because, although they came from all parts of Australia, they were sold originally through New South Wales. They were sturdy, hardy horses able to travel long distances in hot weather with little water. None returned to Australia after the war: some were shot, others sold

At the end of the First World War Australians had 13,000 surplus horses which could not return home for quarantine reasons. Of these 11,000 were sold, the majority as remounts for the British Army in India. Two thousand were cast for age or infirmity. About 200–250 were destroyed (without permission) by their lighthorse owners.

[Guest Rob Thomas]

It is interesting that someone quoted Banjo Patterson earlier in this thread. In early 1919 he was Major A B Patterson, Acting Officer Commanding, 1st Australian Remount unit.

The figures quoted by Terry are from the AWM. They have a great deal of resources behind them to support their veracity.

Rob

[Guest dinkidi]

It is interesting that someone quoted Banjo Patterson earlier in this thread.

That same somebody is a little surprised that somebody else would cosider the writings of Trooper Bluegum & Trooper Idriess [1d] to be "a pity"

Pat Gavan

[Kate Wills]

Mary,

Here, at least, is one happy ending for a WW1 horse.

This is a painting of Thursday, who served with the Northamptonshire Yeomanry throughout the war, in France, Belgium and Italy. Portrayed back home with his canine pal Bob in 1921.

PS Thursday's strange proportions have more to do with the sharp angle needed to take the photo, rather than artistic licence on the artist's part. It is on show on the side wall behind a glass display case.

[Guest Rob Thomas]

Pat

The point that has been made all along is that the reports of disposal of horses has been blown out of all proportion, and that these 2 authors who were not there at the time, yet are closely related to the subject because they had been there previously, have had substantial influence on the topic. Their poems about shooting of horses rather than letting them fall into the hands of arabs have been taken as gospel rather than a minute proportion of the fate of horses.

Patterson was one of those charged with the disposal of the horses and his writings never speak of the shooting of horses.

200-250 from 5 brigades is not what I would call a sample that justifies the writings of Idriess or Trooper Bluegum.

Rob Thomas

[duckman]

Funny that the original point I was grasping for was that the myth pervades because of confabulation (I think thats the right term) of some veterans. Now I find myself defending him against claims that neither I nor he ever made...

Steve - I was a little unclear, but in fact he did claim to have seen it. I can see how you read it as hearsay from my original post, but it wasn't. I clearly stated in a later post that he claimed to have witnessed it. The hypothesis you build from the idea that he heard about it is therefore completely spurious. Was his claim truthful? I have no idea. Neither does anyone else here. The best anyone here can say, and with this I would agree, is "statistically unlikely".

Geoff, Steve, Rob - did I miss anyone? Can I just ask that if people are going to comment on my posts that they actually read them?

I do not claim that the mass destruction happened. I have not claimed that anywhere. I don't know what I have said that conveys that impression, but if someone would point it out, I will happily edit it. I am happy to accept Rob's figures. But by Rob's figures 200 horses were shot by their riders - that means at least 200 people witnessed such events, probably many more (unless the perpetrators blindfolded themselves before doing it, I guess). Is it so improbable that in amongst the many false stories there are some true ones? I would say no. I am saying no-one can know which are true and which aren't. Some here are claiming that because you can't know, any claims must be false.

I would not be distressed to hear that he misremembered / exaggerated / lied outright. The passions this debate inflames are not mine. I do find it amusing that the folk on this thread who are trying to quash the "myth" - and more power to you - are the ones playing fast and loose with the truth, arguing from emotion rather than fact. Perhaps those who so lightly dismiss his story can find a more profitable line than:

"The stories of mass-destruction are a myth. Only 200 hundred were shot."

"I knew a guy who said he saw some shot."

"It's a myth. He heard it from someone else and adopted it as his own memory."

"Well he claims to have seen it happen. Maybe it was one of the 200."

"He didn't see it. It's all a myth. There were only 200 shot."

"But some were shot. So it's not entirely a myth."

"A tiny fraction. The stories of mass-destruction are a myth."

"Yes, but I didn't say he saw thousands shot. He saw some."

"It didn't happen. Only 200 were shot." etc...

It's unsurprising the myth pervades in the face of such incisive argument.

I once met a guy who claimed to have walked on the moon. The line of argument presented here would run "That's ridiculous! Only 12 people out of 6 billion have done that. Surely, he's making it up." But then, that "guy's" name was John Young, commander of Apollo 16, so I thought I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Geoff S]

Sorry Ducky,

I didn't mean to get your feathers in a knot mate!

OK so how about-

It is 'statistically possible', but highly unlikely that this individual witnessed the unauthorised destruction of a horse by it's rider at the end of the War.

However, it is 'statically possible,' and highly likely that popular Australian authors like Idriess, Trooper Bluegum, etc influenced a generation of Australians (including the veterans) in creating a yarn, that is was in fact a highly uncommon event.

Cheers

Geoff S

PS- I thought that whole moon landing was an elaborate hoax

[Guest Bigglesworth]

(Shaking off Lurker cape) Geoff, this is starting to sound a bit like the tail wagging the dog.

[Jon Miller]

Having read much of this thread, I don't think there is a myth. Maybe 200 out of however many thousand is a very small percentage, but I would come to the conclusion that soldiers did shoot their own horses. If constant referral to this episode of the war is unwelcome in some places, consider the impact of the SAD subect on this forum alone. With SAD, we are talking about 300 cases amongst millions of men, an even smaller minority than the horses. With the horses and SAD we are dealing with scenarios that are of great interest because they are far from the norm at best, and deeply shocking at worst. Who's interested in the horse who was sold for his correct price, who's interested in the soldier who went home after the war having done his duty, but no more? Only a few at best, but's that's how the cookie crumbles.

I would say that the parting of soldiers from their horses was an awful thing for them to face up to after the war, and I cannot blame any of them who decided to shoot their friend when you consider that despite the figures given us about the distribution of horses (only a small amount going to private buyers), when Mrs Brooke turns up in Cairo in 1930, there are thousands and thousands of horses who need rescuing. I hate it when horses are destroyed in their best interests, but in this case, Mrs Brooke highlighted how I've reached the conclusion that the soldiers were probably right.

[Guest stevenbec]

Ducky,

I know what you are saying but I also understand that too many times people have used the odd case of a soldier shooting his horse as if it was a common thing at that time.

It wasn't and all records show that.

the small numbers that were are still not that certain and are only possible deaths by soldiers.

But put your self in their shoes would you shoot your horse on the odd chance that it may end up as a plow horse for some egypto.

Remember there was only a small chance of that as most horses were put to use as mounts for British and Indian Cavalry. Only the poorer quality horses were to be shot or sold off the the natives.

That is why I find it hard to beleive this story of shooting horses as no soldier unless certain the animal was in so poor condition to be shot or given to sale to the natives would do it. And in that case the horse would have been disposed of by duty man under Vet/Officers orders anyway.

Remember that there was grading done of the animals at a Regt level, then they were also graded at Brigade. These horses were then taken from the Brigades to the Remount depots for final grading.

So if the soldier did shoot his horse he may have stopped it from becoming a mount for the Brits or Indians or at lest a full life in the Military.

Purhaps that is the source of these stories that they were under some orders from the Vet officer that the horse was in poor conditon and would be shot or sold to the natives and that is why they were shot.

S.B

[Guest dinkidi]

G'day Rob!

Surely you know that Banjo Paterson was highly strung, and would be quite upset at getting an extra T in his name. Granted it was the Boer War but his "Last Parade" would be more significant than the efforts of the other two. Every single lighthorseman would know all about The Banjo.

Bluegum & Idriess would be very insignificant in comparison.

Could you please quote a specific writing of Trooper Idriess which contributed to the ugly myth?

Given the actual fate of Trooper Bluegum, have you ever wondered what prompted him to pen the poem which "upsets" you.

Perhaps we are all getting a bit myoptic here! I'm not one for statistics, but the ALH would have owned a very small percentage of total WW1 horses at War's end.

As Paterson & his wife left Egypt at the end of March 1919, he may not have actually been in on the "kill' so to speak.

Even were stories to be proven somewhat exaggerated, what does it really matter? Surely its good that the stories are still circulating and might encourage kids to find out more of what actually did happen.

ooRoo

Pat

Personally I am much more perturbed by the shooting and jailing of certain horsemen so they didn't come home in 1902.

[bcerha]

Just to change tack slightly and add another happier angle to this somewhat sad thread - some horses had happier experiences than meeting a sorry end in far flung lands. Two of them to my certain knowledge were Jones and Joubert (the latter originally chritened Othello) of J Battery RHA. They deployed with the BEF as part of the Cavalry Divison in August 1914 from their home base in Aldershot and served as a lead pair in a gun team throughout the duration of the war. On returning to Aldershot in 1919 legend has it that when turned loose on the square they calmly ambled back to their old stalls in the horse lines.

This last part may just be an old soldier tale but what is true however is that in 1925 they were brought out of honourable retirement to be in the lead of the team that pulled the 13 pdr that fired British artillery round of the war on the Western front as it bore a wreath to commemorate the 49,000 + Gunners who died in the Great War. The occasion was the unveiling of the Royal Regiment of Artillery war memorial at Hyde Park corner and Jones and Joubert both wore medal ribbons for the 1914 Star, BWM, and Victory Medal stitched to their brow bands.

What is more Jones was latter immortalised in bronze by the commander of the RHA Brigade at Aldershot as he believed Jones typified the plucky little light draught horse which was for so long associated with the teams of the RHA and is still so today. The bronze statue of Jones takes pride of place in the centre of the dining table of the Officer's Mess at the King's Troop Royal Horse Artillery, St Johns Wood, London.

Finally, there is also the story of Warrior, the mount of General Sir Jack Seely who again served throughout and was brought back to a happy retirement in the UK. His story is written in the book My Horse Warrior by Jack Seely and is a thorughly good read for any horse lover.

David

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

To return to the original thread regarding the fate of Horses after the War,There is an Article in "I Was There" #2,{pub;1930s}titled "Horses Honoured in their Country's Service" which gives some statistics regarding Horses used through out the Campaigns;225856 lost their lives,by 1917, 869931 Horses were on Active Service & the total weight of Forage exported to all theatres exceeeded the Total amount of Shells & Ammunition!by the 1930s few of the Wartime Steeds survived but there were some,In the 1920s;With Our Dumb Friends League;A Belgian Aristocrat, Duchesse de Troy had established a Retirement Home in the grounds of her Chateau for many of the Old War Horses left behind & sold off to the French & Belgian Farmers etc;The Ada Cole Memorial Stables in South Mimms Hertfordshire,brought back & retired with Honour many old War Horses found with the Broad Arrow Brand of HMG in Belgian Horse Markets,& other retired Military Horses including "Warrior" the Mount of Lord Mottistone{Brig.Gen Seeley} & On occassion Sir John French;One of the most Famous Mounts of the War "Quicksilver",the Steed of Col;Sir Percy Laurie,who continued in service as his Mount ,as DAC Scotland Yard,& presided @ many post War Parades & Processions,Wearing his?:Order of the Blue Cross;Pip Squeak & Wilfred in the Headband & Noseband of his Bridle,he had started his Military service in 1916 with Gen Sir Aylmer Hunter ~ Westons Staff,being handed to Laurie as his Mount,He was wounded by Shrapnel on the Somme & returned to London in 1919 after spending some time with the army of the Rhine,whereupon he joined the Police with his Master,During his time with the Police Quicksilver raised £275 on behalf of the RVC donated into his Nosebag!@ the age of 28 he was still riding to hounds with Sir Percy!By 1938 it was Officially Stated that All Old surviving W/O Horses in France & Belgium had been Repatriated for retirement in the UK!

Quicksilver,Mount of:~Lt.Col;DAC; Sir Percy Laurie

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

Warrior:Mount of Lord Mottistone,Brigadier General Seeley{standing with him}

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

And Proof Positive that the O/Rs also enjoyed their Retirement!

"Old Bill" {Ex~RFA}@ The Ada Cole Memorial Stables ~ South Mimms,Hertfordshire

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

..........................& Daisy{RFA} & Tommie{RDC}enjoy the pleasures of South Mimms~ "Wot No Service Area for the M1,Daisy,??" "Nahy Tommie Thrice Nahy!"

[michaeldr]

‘Bill’- A waler and one of the best

The Graves Registration Unit returned to Gallipoli in late 1918 under an Australian, Lt. C. E. Hughes, who had previously served there in 1915 with the Light Horse. At this point hopefully someone will correct me; either this horse was brought with them from Egypt, or they found him in situ and recognised him from three years previously. In any event, ‘Bill’ worked with the GRU and/or the IWGC until he died in 1924. He was given his own marker which is the same as that for any other Gallipoli casualty and is found today in the grounds of the CWGC Base Depot at Anzac.

picture from the Holt’s guide

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Guest stevenbec]

Mate,

The 7th ALHR complete (with Horses) and the Canterbury Mounted Rifles (NZ) sailed to Gallipoli from Palestine as part of the ocupation forces in late 1918.

They were there only a short time before returning to Egypt.

S.B

[Guest dinkidi]

Steve

Did any AIF, as distinct from ALH, horses get to Anzac in 1915

Pat